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MLD 2010 Sir Allan Montagu Semi Final: #1 Florida Hammerheads vs. #4 St. Mary’s Huski

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07-29-2010, 02:39 PM
  #76
Hedberg
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Tardif has to be the puckwinning presence for this line. Even if we give him 10 imaginary top 10's for NHL scoring the fact is that he has no other player on his line to win the puck for him. Clearly this will take away from his offense. This is a very poorly constructed first line and probably 2 of the worst possible linemates for Tardif.
What about, in the cases where the puck needs to be won, Tardif gets the puck and then has the following options:
a) drive to the net himself
or more likely
b) pass to Janney, who than can pass it to Swift or Tardif or the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
........How is Floridas more impressive?? This clearly shows St. Mary's have more proven offensive weapons that can score. Why did you omit our 4th line?? That was pretty convenient Add in a 3rd and 5th, 14th from Blair and Parise
And you can add in 7th for Gracie in points (4th in assists) and a 9th for Lamb. Not enough to close the gap.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
This clearly shows St. Mary's have more proven offensive weapons that can score.
How so? The only way would be the way you cropped your post to exclude Tardif, Swift, and McDougall.

Also, our team knows how to win. They have 18 Stanley Cups (plus McDougall's 5). St. Mary's has 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Who has the better Selke record?? Its Ricci by a country mile...and a nose Pahlsson isnt even in the same universe as Ricci as indicated by the Selke Voting
Pahlsson is in the same universe with a 2nd and 6th. He's not as good as Ricci in the grit department or in offense, but at his peak he was a great shutdown player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Norstrom was said to be the most underated player in the game as quoted by Jeremy Roenick. Plus Norstrom is paired with a more proven mobile partner.
Norstrom was a fine player, but that doesn't mean he was agile. Just like Norstrom was good despite lacking agility, so was Samuelsson. And Rautakallio isn't any more proven than Halderson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
We are not "all about Tardif winning the puck, you are, you forced that upon him.
Yeah, your biggest attack in this thread has been "who's going to win the puck? who's going to win the puck?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Still no viable quotes on all of his older era players, we are basing their play on pure speculation.
What are you looking for:

Halderson:
Quote:
Winnipeg Falcons:
Slim Halderson was a great puck carrier. He could weave his way down the right wing with uncanny control over the puck. Slim, who was six foot two inches tall, travelled down the ice at a much faster clip than the actions of his long limbs indicated. A few long strides and he'd be down to the other end of the rink before the opposition expected.

Kings of the Ice:
Harold Halderson was known as "Slim" throughout his long career. He was a strapping 6'3" in an era were most players were much smaller, but his 200 pound frame was lean and gangly. He had a loose-limbed skating style that looked awkward at first, but his rushes down the wing, combined with his defensive savvy, allowed him to play for 20 years in leagues across North America. He achieved lasting recognition in Canada for his play at the 1920 Summer Olympics in Antwerp, Belgium.

During an early practice, coach ********* was trying hard to keep the players from straying from their positions. One of the worst offenders was Halderson, a good puck carrier who would get a head of steam going down his right wing and then continue across center when he entered the offensive zone. Halderson bumped heads with another player during a drill designed to keep him on his part of the ice. A few minutes later, he again carried the puck across his imaginary line and the coach smacked the winger across the seat with his stick to stop him. Halderson apologized, saying, "It must have been the bump on the head."

"...After watching the speed with which Canadians like Slim Halderson could shoot the puck, Sweden's goaltender hurriedly found some cotton padding to wrap around himself... Halderson scored against the Czechs with ease, finishing with seven goals in a 15-0 victory... The Swedish team advanced to the Gold medal game. Halderson scored the first-ever goal in an Olympic final just over a minute in. He added another in the third period as Canada won 12-1."

The Daily Colonist, Marc 31, 1925
"The Icelandic-Canadian duo of Frank Fredrickson and Harold Halderson were strong performers for the Cougars."

NY Times, April 2, 1926
"The Middle Frame saw Victoria again away on the offensive with Halderson getting in some fine work. He prepared his attacks on the Montreal net, only to find Benedict still doing business.

Victoria launched another major offensive with Halderson leading their rushes..."

The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1
"Slim Halderson was throwing his weight around quite a bit but he found the Montreal defense ready for him."

The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1
"Slim Halderson featured with his rugged play which did not please the Montreal fans."

NY Times, Dec 1, 1926
"Siebert cleared a dangerous attack and rushed. the crowd booed when Halderson stepped into him.

Halderson relieved a rush and coasted through the Montreal defense and caught Benedict napping to make it 4-0"


NY Times, Dec 20, 1926
The Cook brothers started attacks of their own account, but the defense of Halderson, Loughlin and Holmes was too strong.

Halderson, ******* and Frederickson all staged flashing plays for Detroit in the first overtime period, and the action was often in the Ranger territory."
Credit to seventies for those quotes.

McNamara:
Quote:
Legends of Hockey:
Defenseman Howard McNamara was one of the biggest players of his era, tipping to scales at 240 pounds.

McNamara loved to play the body and be physical. It was rare that an opponent would openly challenge him in the corners, usually outweighing them by at least 50 or 60 pounds.

Should Howard McNamara be in the Hall of Fame?:
The tale of the tape:

* George, a defenceman, had 39 goals and 13 assists over 8 seasons or 138 games (excluding exhibition game totals and his 2 goals in 3 playoff games). That's 0.28 goals per game or 0.38 points per game.

* Howard, also a defenceman, had 47 goals and 17 assists over 11 seasons or 134 games (excluding exhibition game totals and he had no playoff points). That's 0.35 goals per game, or 0.48 points per game.

Since the two often played on the same team, in the same league, and with a similar style, these statistics are probably comparable. If so, the advantage goes to Howard.

Howard was also known for his size (6 feet, 240 lbs - which was HUGE in that era) and for obvious reasons, dominated opponents physically.In a letter to Mike Rodden, sportswriter and former NHL referee, Selke wrote:

"Between ourselves Mike - when George was admitted [to the Hall] Howard's wife told a friend of mine that George could not carry Howard's skates. I asked [Art] Ross and Lester [Patrick] about this and they said, which one was Howard?"

Toronto World, Dec. 28, 1916
"McNamara set sail down the ice alone and lifted one into the net from outside the defence"

"Howard McNamara did the heavy work for the next one. He carried it down and drew the defence over and then passed neatly to *******"

"McNamara carried to down and passed to Oatman to score the eleventh tally"

Toronto World, Jan. 26, 1914
"McNamara rushed and Mr. hall politely slipped the butt end of his stick into the dynamite twin's rib. McNamara stopped and handled Hall two stiff raps on the ribs that sent him to his knees."

"McNamara is generally considered one of the cleanest players in the league"

Toronto World, Jan. 8, 1914
"McNamara saved a goal by grabbing the puck with his hand while lying down in front of the goal"

"McNamara and all the forwards took a band in the bombardment of the net"

Toronto World, Dec. 8, 1916
"Last year's opposing forwards found themselves confronted by the huge bulk of Howard McNamara"

Toronto World, Jan. 14, 1915
"Howard and George McNamara used their bodies and Percy Leseur was in wonderful form"

"Howard and George McNamara were effective with excellent body checks"

Montreal Daily Mail, Mar. 31, 1916
"A minute later Howard McNamara rushed the length of the ice"
Conclusion: McNamara could skate and hit very well. How many big, mobile, hard hitting defencemen are bad defensively?

Wilson:
Quote:
Legends of Hockey:
There are few men who have done more for hockey in their native communities than has Gordon Allan "Phat" Wilson.

He was noted as an all-time great amateur player whose long rushes down ice contributed to his winning the senior scoring title as a defenceman. Although he retired from active play in 1933 at the age of 37, he stayed very active in the hockey and sports scene in Port Arthur.

Ottawa Citizen, Mar. 25, 1929:
Quote:
******, ******, and ****** dominated the play throughout, assisted in their offensive efforts by Wilson, whose rushing was one of the game's features.
Montreal Gazette, Mar. 22, 1930:

Phat Wilson delivered the game's prettiest individual tally. In the powerful lone rush style that has placed him at 35 years of age among the most feared defencemen in amateur hockey, he sifted through the Trail team and backhanded the puck over Garland's shoulder

Montreal Gazette, Jan. 23, 1932:
Just a few hours too late, the Canadian olympic committee head today that Phat Wilson, star defence player, would had been available to join the Winnipegs had he known they were being strengthened...

"Wilson would have been a strong addition to the team," said Mr. Hewitt, "and we would have given him serious consideration. The Manitoba Hockey Association, which had the choice, would probably have thought it over very seriously too, for Phat is a great player, but the entries closed last night and there is nothing we can do now."
Ridpath:
Quote:
Ottawa Citizen, Dec. 3, 1909:
He [Ridpath] played right wing for the Toronto Pros in their Stanley Cup match against the Wanderers two years ago and was the best man on the ice, putting up a wonderful game.

Ridpath should have little difficulty in making good with the Ottawas. He is a lithe little chap, very fast and aggressive and a great stick handler.

Ottawa Hockey Legends:
Bruce Ridpath was a high scoring right winger who netted better than a goal per game in his four years of professional hockey.

Starting out with Toronto in the Ontario Professional Hockey League, Ridpath helped the team skate to the league championship in 1908. Unfortunately, the Toronto Professionals lost a challenge to the Montreal Wanderers for the Stanley Cup that season.

Ridpath would taste Stanley Cup success soon enough, however. In 1910 he joined the Ottawa Senators and immediately settled in on a line with Marty Walsh and Dubbie Kerr. The trio were hockey's highest scoring line, especially in the 1911-12 season. Ridpath scored an impressive 22 goals in 16 regular season games then added 4 more in 2 playoff games as the Sens won the Stanley Cup.
As for Swift and McDougall, there's less as Google Archive doesn't have a lot of 1890s, so what we have are their offensive dominance as well as some insight from two internet sources that took their stuff from Ultimate Hockey (and the authors there probably used real newspaper sources).

Swift:
Quote:
Hockey Notes:
Quote:
Arthur "Dolly" Swift played for the Montreal Victorias as far back as 1884. He had a most unnatural style -- he carried the puck ahead of him, stickhandling with one hand, which was apparently quite distracting to play against. In any case, he was one of the more intelligent, innovative hockey players of hockey's pre-modern era. Swift was one half of the first bona fide player rivalry in hockey, the other half being Weldy Young. Swift and Young clashed whenever Quebec and Ottawa met, their most famous set-to coming during a February 23, 1895 match in l'Ancien Capital. On this night the two men put on a most barbaric display that resulted in the Quebec club's suspension for the rest of the season and playoffs.

Although Swift would often be used on defense, he was a natural rover.
McDougall:
Quote:
Robert Mcdougall was the highest scoring forward before the 1900s in Stanley Cup play. Robert scored a confirmed total of 49 goals in 36 recorded games. Overshadowed today by the likes of fellow teammates and hall of famers Graham Drinkwater and Mike Grant, Robert was consistantly one of the Montreal Victorias highest scoring forwards.

Robert Macdougall was the highest scoring forward before the 1900s in Stanley Cup play. Robert scored a confirmed total of 49 goals in 36 recorded games. Overshadowed today by the likes of fellow teammates and hall of famers Graham Drinkwater and Mike Grant, Robert was consistantly one of the Montreal Victorias highest scoring forwards.

Near the end of Robert's career he would generally only play championship games due to his work scedule, In his last season Robert MacDougalls career would end in some controversey. In the 1895 Stanley Cup final with Montreal leading a total goal series with 4 goals to 2 against the Winnipeg Victorias with about 12 minutes left in the game, Montreal's Robert MacDougall slashed [a Winnipeg player]. As [Winnipeg player] was carried off the ice, referee Bill Findlay only called MacDougall for a two minute minor. Angry that he should have been accessed a larger penalty, Winnipeg went into their dressing room in protest. Insulted, Findlay abruptly went home, but returned after officials followed him on a sleigh and persuaded him to return. Once back at the rink, the referee gave Winnipeg 15 minutes to return to the ice themselves. They refused and thus Findlay disqualified the team and declared Montreal the winners. 4,000 were attending the Winnipeg Auditorium rink to hear returns of the game by telegraph


Last edited by Hedberg: 07-30-2010 at 01:39 AM.
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Old
07-29-2010, 02:46 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't like the Beukeboom comparison to Howard McNamara. They are both huge, physical defensemen. But that's where the similarities end. Beukeboom was a solid stay-at-home guy who provided almost no offense and was a really slow skater. Howard McNamara actually provides a lot of offense. What do we know of his skating? My question about McNamara is: what do we actually know about his defensive ability?
Based on the quotes in the above post, McNamara was a very good skater and was considered an intimidating defender. He's nothing like Beukeboom other than, as you said, they both were big, devastating hitters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
His lower scoring and equally huge brother is in the Hall of Fame. Unless you believe the story that they inducted George by mistake instead of Howard, that indicates to me that George was almost certainly better defensively, possibly by a lot.
The Hall of Fame for pre-original 6 players is pretty random in some of its selections so it's hard to put a ton of meaning into it.


Last edited by Hedberg: 07-29-2010 at 03:22 PM.
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07-29-2010, 03:45 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
On a side note :

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDMM
Even in the 1880s when there were like 50 people in all the world playing hockey?

Yes I know this is inapplicable for Herb Jordan, who played in the 1900s. But I don't believe that the best in the world of the superthin and mostly unprofessional group of players is anything close to the best of the world after hockey became a professional sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
No, not necessarily. I have read the following books:

Win, Tie, or Wrangle: The Inside Story of the Original Otta Senators, 1884-1935
Lords Of the Rinks: The Emergence of the NHL, 1875-1936
Total Hockey 2 ("Before The Trail Of the Stanley Cup" feature)

I have also browsed:

How Hockey Happened
The Puck Starts Here
Hockey's Colonels, Captains, and Kings

and my conclusion is that hockey was a fun little getaway for affluent gentlemen who were members of exclusive clubs. There was very little organization, there was really no line between players and management, and winning and taking note of who the best players were was really not important to anyone. Most recorded games took place at the Ottawa winter carnival.

It does make me wonder a bit when people tout those guys at the start of Ultimate Hockey, like Allan Cameron, Tom Paton, and James Stewart as great MLD players. great extra MLD players, maybe.

But by the 1890s, hockey had already become somewhat of a craze. A trophy became worth competing for. Rough play became more common because of the importance of winning. Money also entered the picture. So players who could deliver victory became hot commodities. And history really began to record what happened and who was the best.

So yeah, I agree about the 1880s. But there were major changes shortly after that.
THIS
THIS
THIS

Please all GM's take this into account when voting for all series.
I just want to state that I was referring to the 1880s and pre-stanley cup play in particular. This does not summarize how I feel about guys like Dolly Swift and Bob McDougall, as they played competitive and organized hockey.

I realize that they are harder to judge, but I don't think dismissing them is correct, either.

If anyone wants to do so in their voting, they can feel free, but I just wanted to clarify, this is not what TDMM and I meant.

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07-29-2010, 03:56 PM
  #79
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[Lets keep in mind Dolly Swift played when there were no boards used and he will have zero value as a puck winner.
That's a little dirty. It's not his fault. If people buy that he was a tough player, then they should accept he's a tough player with or without boards. Once you start assuming every player drafted over a period of 120 years needs to be in the exact same physical conditions he played in to be successful, you go down a slippery slope.

Quote:
[*]Why has Frank Patrick not been brought up yet? Once again another vital member of the Hammerheads who is unproven in the NHL. He has coached 2 seasons total with a career 2-4 playoff record. Compared to coach Q who is a career playoff record of 67-59 with a cup win, coaching in more playoff games then Patrick has coached combined. Another clearcut advantage for the Huskies.[/LIST]
Frank Patrick was also a playing coach in the PCHA and I think he coached in the WCHL too. His legacy goes beyond that too. He was a real student and teacher of the game, and a master innovator, as good as Lester. that counts for something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't like the Beukeboom comparison to Howard McNamara. They are both huge, physical defensemen. But that's where the similarities end. Beukeboom was a solid stay-at-home guy who provided almost no offense and was a really slow skater. Howard McNamara actually provides a lot of offense. What do we know of his skating? My question about McNamara is: what do we actually know about his defensive ability? His lower scoring and equally huge brother is in the Hall of Fame. Unless you believe the story that they inducted George by mistake instead of Howard, that indicates to me that George was almost certainly better defensively, possibly by a lot.
No, me neither.... keep in mind that was me two years ago.

I think Hedberg did a reasonable job on his defensive ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg
They have 18 Stanley Cups (plus McDougall's 5).
I think he has 4... including two that involved playing playoff games.

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07-29-2010, 04:35 PM
  #80
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The biggest difference is Parise has never been considered the best at his position, has never won a Stanley Cup, and the defence pool is much weaker than the forward pool.
The bolded is key. I actually don't think Keith has much more career value than Parise at this point in a vaccuum. But what matters is comparing Keith to other defensemen in this league.

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07-29-2010, 05:55 PM
  #81
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I think he has 4... including two that involved playing playoff games.
Dec. 1896
Mar. 1897
Dec. 1897
Mar. 1898
Feb. 1899

?

Regardless, the differences in Cup play is why I had his wins in parentheses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think even Hedberg thinks Tardiff's finish is equal to a 1st in the NHL. The metric he used to smooth down the edges (so Tardiff didn't go from 1st to 45th in no time) gave Tardiff a peak of 4th in points, which may or may not still be too high.
Yes. The definitive answer is that Desjardin's metric fluctuated too much because of sample size, so watering down the formula, I believe the metric of about 0.70 x WHA numbers translated decently (posts 44 and 47 explain in greater detail).

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I realize that they are harder to judge, but I don't think dismissing them is correct, either.
Figuring out where they (Swift, McDougall, etc) fit in is the thing that interests me about the MLD the most. I see it similar to the question of what year to accept Soviet (or Czech) players as legitimate. It seems that by 1903, with the rise of the Ottawa Silver Seven, the legitimacy of hockey is generally accepted. By 1904, the first pro-league emerged. How much worse was hockey 5-8 years earlier? Hockey was organized and there was a competitive league

In the ATD, Grant and Drinkwater seem to have been accepted, so why not accept the highly talented forwards of this decade in the MLD? There has to be a line somewhere (I would favour the beginning of Stanley Cup play when the competitive teams emerged and a league infrastructure had been around for about 5 years). As seventies pointed out, ignoring players because the game was different in their era creates a very slipperly slope.

The idea that "please all GM's take this into account when voting for all series" in reference to 1880s hockey isn't all that relevant to this series because only Dolly Swift played in the late 1880s and he was at his best in the mid-1890s.


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07-29-2010, 08:41 PM
  #82
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Dec. 1896
Mar. 1897
Dec. 1897
Mar. 1898
Feb. 1899

?

Regardless, the differences in Cup play is why I had his wins in parentheses.
Ahh, I get it now. Either the two in 1896-97 or 1897-98 count as just one. I'm too lazy to go check The Trail to find out right now though.


Quote:
The idea that "please all GM's take this into account when voting for all series" in reference to 1880s hockey isn't all that relevant to this series because only Dolly Swift played in the late 1880s and he was at his best in the mid-1890s.
Correct.

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07-29-2010, 08:50 PM
  #83
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Ahh, I get it now. Either the two in 1896-97 or 1897-98 count as just one. I'm too lazy to go check The Trail to find out right now though.
Probably the 97 one. The Victorias won AHAC in March 1897 and then beat the Ottawa Capitals in a challenge game on December 27. Also, McDougall played in three playoffs (Dec. 30, 1896 vs Winnipeg Victoria, Dec. 27, 1897 vs Ottawa Capitals, and Feb 15-18, 1899 vs. Winnipeg Victorias [he scored the winning goal]. It looks like McDougall won the Cup due being an AHAC champion twice and in challenge games three times.

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07-29-2010, 09:59 PM
  #84
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Probably the 97 one. The Victorias won AHAC in March 1897 and then beat the Ottawa Capitals in a challenge game on December 27. Also, McDougall played in three playoffs (Dec. 30, 1896 vs Winnipeg Victoria, Dec. 27, 1897 vs Ottawa Capitals, and Feb 15-18, 1899 vs. Winnipeg Victorias [he scored the winning goal]. It looks like McDougall won the Cup due being an AHAC champion twice and in challenge games three times.
Hmm, it's actually the 1899 cup that The Trail isn't crediting him with. They defended the cup against Winnipeg, which isn't the same as winning it, then they relinquished it to the Shamrocks, who defended it against Queens. It was one of "those" years.

other than that:

in 1894, he lost a one game league playoff.

in 1895, Montreal successfully defended the cup (but didn't win if "from" anyone so it doesn't count as a win for them), then McDougall's vics took it over by winning the league.

In 1896, Winnipeg took the cup from them (which counts as a win for them, so this is a year where two teams get credit), but McDougall's vics took it back, so they get credit as well, by finishing the year as the champs.

In 1897, The Vics won the league so they kept the cup. They actually won a challenge against the Ottawa Cas but the game received little attention so no one knows who scored the goals.

In 1898, The Vics won the league so they kept the cup.

In 1899, The Vics successfully defended the cup (but didn't win if "from" anyone so it doesn't count as a win for them), then Trihey's Shamrocks took it over by winning the league.

Also, I missed that in 1896, the dimensions of the Vics were given. The ones who we know of:

Grant: 5'10", 170
McDougall: 5'7", 158
Drinkwater: 5'11", 164

which renders this research obsolete:

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord, 04-29-2009
It's all guesswork, of course, and can never be called official, but here's my take:

Grahm Drinkwater is, to my knowledge, the only other player there whose height is known. He's 5'11 and 165 lbs.

In the 1895 picture, Drinkwater is standing and Grant is sitting.

In the 1896 picture, Drinkwater is sitting (2nd from right) while Grant is standing.

In the 1897 picture, Drinkwater is sitting and Grant is standing.

In 1898, same.

If there was one guy who, in one picture, was standing next to Drinkwater, and in another picture, was standing next to Grant, we'd be able to make an educated guess. I have the pics fully labelled here, and the only guys who fit the bill, are standing on some sort of hidden pedestals in one of the pics, and another appears to be kneeling on a chair in the back.

The Trail calls him a "big man" which it generally says about players 5'10" and up in those days. I'd say Grant is 5'9 at least, and most likely 5'10".

It also says he was making end to end rushes long before Patrick or Ross, and that he, along with his partner, "were the main stumbling block to the opposition when the Victorias won the Cup four years in succession. He was a colourful player and was their captain. That's all I got for ya. Combined with that article, not too shabby. I think it's safe to say he was one of the top-5 players around at the time, if not the best.

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07-30-2010, 08:31 AM
  #85
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Marc Tardif = Alexander Radulov

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07-30-2010, 12:10 PM
  #86
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Marc Tardif = Alexander Radulov
The WHA was a better league than the KHL and Tardif dominated the WHA in his peak while Radulov doesn't even lead the KHL in scoring. Even though his peak was over, he still scored a 1.17 point per game pace in his first season back in the NHL.

If you believe the WHA was the equivalent of the KHL, then why did you post in the ATD?:

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Anders Hedberg played on one of the greatest lines of his era with Bobby Hull too.
That wasn't in the NHL...


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07-30-2010, 04:19 PM
  #87
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If you believe the WHA was the equivalent of the KHL, then why did you post in the ATD?:



That wasn't in the NHL...
Hahahaha, owned.

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07-30-2010, 05:14 PM
  #88
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Because Anders Hedberg made an all-star team, is inducted into the IIHF, and is ranked #36 on the All Time Ranger List. Much Much better Resume


Why isnt the KHL comparable to the WHA?? 2nd best league in the world.

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07-30-2010, 05:20 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Because Anders Hedberg made an all-star team, is inducted into the IIHF, and is ranked #36 on the All Time Ranger List. Much Much better Resume

Why isnt the KHL comparable to the WHA?? 2nd best league in the world.
When the KHL starts attracting guys of similar talent to JC Tremblay and Gerry Cheevers in their primes, keeps young talent as good as a young Mark Howe, and has guys as good as still-effective-but-a-bit-past-his-prime Bobby Hull, then we can talk. No, Jagr is way past his prime now, as you could see in his last season in the NHL.

The WHA performed very well on the international stage against the Soviets. Compare to the KHL line (Morozov and his linemates) getting totally overwhelmed at the Olympics.

The WHA had a winning record vs. the NHL in exhibition games (granted the best NHL team, the Canadiens weren't involved).

It's possible the KHL will reach WHA status, but I doubt it. The WHA was able to poach NHL talent because the NHL wouldn't pay it's players, something that isn't an issue today.

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07-30-2010, 05:32 PM
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Florida Hammerheads defeat the St. Mary's Huskies in 6 games.

3 stars to come later.

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07-30-2010, 09:38 PM
  #91
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Thanks to markrander and Stalberg for providing an interesting debate.

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07-31-2010, 12:10 PM
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Good series Hedberg and vcl. Wish I had a bit more time to put in to it but the better team won. Good luck to our opponents going forward.

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07-31-2010, 01:19 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The WHA performed very well on the international stage against the Soviets. Compare to the KHL line (Morozov and his linemates) getting totally overwhelmed at the Olympics.
I don't know about "very well"; they didn't win too many games, and many of those games were played in 1976-77, when Soviet hockey was in a crisis a bit, as well as the Soviets not always playing some of their best players (which was of course their decision, but anyway...). And that comparison is, er, fairly weak, shall we say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The WHA had a winning record vs. the NHL in exhibition games (granted the best NHL team, the Canadiens weren't involved).
Yeah, that 'sounds' impressive, but when you examine the results a little closer, even the best WHA teams basically always lost to those genuinely good NHL teams (admittedly I didn't bother to check out the list NOW, but that's what I remember). I mean, so what if the Jets or Nordiques beat an NHL team that wasn't the Habs, Flyers, Bruins, NY Islanders, or Sabres; it didn't prove much IMO.


Last edited by VMBM: 07-31-2010 at 01:24 PM.
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07-31-2010, 01:20 PM
  #94
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Thanks for the solid series Stalberg and markrander. A very well built team and it was definitely a tough challenge to get past you guys.

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08-03-2010, 08:10 AM
  #95
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Great Series from Hedberg and VAn City. I am just getting home from my cottage now with no internet access. You guys had a great team, and deserved the win.

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08-03-2010, 12:56 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I don't know about "very well"; they didn't win too many games, and many of those games were played in 1976-77, when Soviet hockey was in a crisis a bit, as well as the Soviets not always playing some of their best players (which was of course their decision, but anyway...). And that comparison is, er, fairly weak, shall we say.



Yeah, that 'sounds' impressive, but when you examine the results a little closer, even the best WHA teams basically always lost to those genuinely good NHL teams (admittedly I didn't bother to check out the list NOW, but that's what I remember). I mean, so what if the Jets or Nordiques beat an NHL team that wasn't the Habs, Flyers, Bruins, NY Islanders, or Sabres; it didn't prove much IMO.
I just saw this post.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that the WHA was ever on par with the NHL. Just that it wasn't really THAT far behind. Meaning, that if the WHA teams were moved into the NHL, they wouldn't have been any worse than the bad NHL teams.

Whereas I really think that you would have to put together a KHL all-star team to even compete with an NHL team today.

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08-04-2010, 09:25 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I just saw this post.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that the WHA was ever on par with the NHL. Just that it wasn't really THAT far behind. Meaning, that if the WHA teams were moved into the NHL, they wouldn't have been any worse than the bad NHL teams.

Whereas I really think that you would have to put together a KHL all-star team to even compete with an NHL team today.
Fair enough. I just thought that the Olympics example was a bit so so, and the exhibition games between WHA and NHL teams mostly tell that the best/better WHA clubs were superior to/on par with weak/mediocre NHL teams. I don't think even the Jets would have been among the top 4 or 5 in the NHL, despite the propaganda of some old Jets supporters ("the Jets are the only/first club team ever to beat the Soviet national team" [no, they weren't] or that "the Jets beat the Czechoslovak national team" [never happened] or even "the Jets were better/as good as the Habs" [yeah, right]).

Matti Hagman, the Finnish pro, who played in both WHA and NHL in the late '70s (WHA: Quebec, NHL: Boston) & early '80s (NHL: Edmonton) has said that the difference between the 2 leagues was huge - in NHL's favour, of course.

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