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Old
08-02-2010, 09:17 PM
  #1
JerseyRangers
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Rate the GM's

I've been reading the thread regarding Sather's moves this summer and it got me thinking. What makes a good GM??? How do we rate them? If at the end the only thing that counts is winning the cup then that means that 29 GM's fail every year.
Bobby Clarke built some really good Philly teams that never won anything. Where would he rate? Is building a solid team but never winning the cup mean your a good GM? Regier has had a good run in Buffalo since 1996 but hasn't won a cup and probably won't in the next few years. Where does he stand? Maloney sucked for the Isles in the early 90's and is being hailed as the next great thing in Phoenix even though most of the groundwork was laid out for him. How does he rate?

To me in the end the GM's role is to build a team that win's the cup -- regardless of draft position, talent base when you took charge, injuries to players, ownership interference or assitance.

Based on that we've got the following GM's who have been successful:

1. Ken Holland
2. Stan Bowman
3. Ray Shero
4. Lou Lams
5. J. Rutherford

What about the rest??? In the other thread someone said that Sather has had 10 years to build a winner but has failed so he sucks. OK, lets look at guys who've been with their teams for atleast 10 years and haven't won the cup.
1. Glenn Sather
2. Darcy Regier
3. David Poile
4. George McPhee
5. Larry Pleau
Poile, Pleau and McPhee have all been with their organizations since 1997. Pleau's and Poile's teams have never won a playoff series so if winning is the criteria, they've got to rate below Sather. Now it gets tough. McPhee teams have had some success in the playoffs. However, they've had the benefit of 2 or 3 top 5 draft choices -- something Sather hasn't had. I will give the slight edge to McPhee. Regier has been in Buffalo since 1996 and never won the cup. His team is currently better then the Rangers but not sure his farm system can stack up. I'll call this one even.

In the next group I'll put GM"s with their teams since 2001 but no later then 2006 who have never won the cup. This group includes the following:
1. Darryl Sutter
2. Peter Chiarelli
3. Garth Snow
4. Paul Holmgren
5. Dean Lombardi
6. Doug Wilson
If winning is the criteria then Sutter, Snow and Lombardi fall below Sather. Chiarelli is right around Sather, Wilson and Holmgren a step above.

For the rest of the GM's their body of work is too short to really judge with their current organizations.

Given the names I've listed here is how I would rate them based on winning and winning alone.

1. Ken Holland
2. Stan Bowman
3. Ray Shero
4. Lou Lams
5. J. Rutherford
6. D. Wilson
7. George McPhee (if he doesn't win a cup in the next two seasons he drops fast)
8. Holmgren
9. Chiarelli
9. Sather
9. Regier
12. Dean Lombardi
13. D. Poile
14. L. Pleau
15. G. Snow
16. D. Sutter

Pretty obvious that unlike what's been said in the previous thread Sather is far from the worst GM in the league. Sutter has that crown all by himself. Snow hasn't done squat with the piles since he took over. They still won't make the playoffs. The Blues haven't won a playoff series in 13 seasons -- no way Pleau has done a better job then Sather. Nashville has never won a playoff series since they came in the league -- even though they've had at a minimum of two top 5 draft choices. Obviously Poile ranks below Sather. Finally, Lombardi has put together decent talent in LA but until they start winning in the post season it means squat. He's got to rate below Sather for now. Regier has had 14 years to win the cup. Has come close once but didn't win. Team getting older and looks to have peaked. He's sliding below Sather.

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08-02-2010, 09:22 PM
  #2
HockeyBasedNYC
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Oh, this is gonna be a hoot.

Keep in mind, that various teams have different "caps" of their own. While I agree with the overall generality of the post, Sather has the luxury of spending to the ceiling of the cap, the lure of the greatest city of the world and everything that goes along with it, the prominence of an original 6 franchise, and quite possibly the most "perk" laden and pampering franchises in the league. He has other resources than a lot of other GMs do... Just a point.

I dont think Sather is the worst GM in the league, but I think hes had enough time here to drive me and plenty of other Rangers fans NUTS - and his lack of a plan and foresight regarding rosters and player values as a whole stink IMO. He takes way too many risks and hires way too many question marks and has an odd fixation with human interest signings.

And not for nothing, for the amount of money it costs to attend a game, let alone a season plan - and the mediocrity we have endured throughout his tenure here, the least he can offer is a good public relation with the fans. He is totally unavailable and shuts himself off to fans unless he wants to spew some sort of rehearsed Ranger propaganda on MSG pregames and specials. Hes not nearly as visible as he should be for a fanbase that craves information and are as passionate about their team as we are. I dont care what anyone says, he owes us that.

With that said, the root of the problem isnt Glen Sather. It goes higher than that.

Good post though PH. ; )


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 08-02-2010 at 09:39 PM.
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Old
08-02-2010, 09:24 PM
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Chiarelli has done a nice job setting up that Boston team for a while. If some of the draft picks pan out Boston should be competing for the cup in a few years. Similiar to what Sather has done although the talent level of the Bruins yutes is a level higher then the Rangers. Still I can see these two original 6 franchises butting heads in the next two or three years.

Holmgren's standing is really going to depend on the Pronger trade. If he wins a cup cause of that move then he's successful. However, that window is closing fast. Pronger has probably another season or two in which he can be expected to carry that d. If Philly doesn't win by then that trade will look worse and worse for Philly as will Holmgren's legacy. Personally, I don't see that happening and I think that trade is going to end up looking bad for Philly as will the last 5 seasons of that salary.

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08-02-2010, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Oh, this is gonna be a hoot.
Yeah, it really should be. I've alway said that Sather has been a very average GM while in NY and I still stick to that. Other posters seem to think he's the worst GM in the league. Just want to see how they view him in comparison to guys like Sutter, Pleau, Poile and the rest who obviously have done less in more time then Sather.

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08-02-2010, 09:42 PM
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Sather is a better GM than Sutter. Poile and Pleau have much less resources to work with than Sather. I rate both above Sather.

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08-02-2010, 10:05 PM
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Poile is a very underrated GM. That team is in a brutal division and has made the playoffs 4 of the past 5 seasons while hardly ever coming anywhere near the cap ceiling. The fact that Sather has been able to spend to the cap his entire tenure here is huge in comparison to Poile. The Predators will never be able to sign a player like Gaborik or resign a superstar goalie like Lundqvist. He's basically accomplished the same amount (making the playoffs) with far less resources in a division that usually produces a Stanley Cup finalist.

I also feel that Doug Wilson is a very underrated GM and I've liked Chiarelli's recent track record.

I should also point out that I don't prescribe to the theory that "winning the cup" is the only form of success. That's a very narrowminded outlook, IMO and it doesn't work for coaches either.


Last edited by Banks3rdLineCenter: 08-02-2010 at 10:11 PM.
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Old
08-03-2010, 10:56 AM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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Surprised that this thread hasn't taken off considering all the talk about Sather lately.

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08-03-2010, 11:07 AM
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Lou, Glen, Garth.

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08-03-2010, 11:09 AM
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I honestly believe Darryl Sutter is by far the worst GM in hockey. Iginla and Kiprusoff are ROTTING there.

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08-03-2010, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Surprised that this thread hasn't taken off considering all the talk about Sather lately.
Rating GMs is incredible difficult. Sure some stand out either good or bad, but the ones in the middle are anyone's guess.

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08-03-2010, 11:24 AM
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Sather has without doubt done the best job as a GM in the league. I mean, who doesn't think that?

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08-03-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ranger View Post
Sather has without doubt done the best job as a GM in the league. I mean, who doesn't think that?
You forgot the

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08-03-2010, 11:27 AM
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My bad..!


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08-03-2010, 11:31 AM
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Chiarelli hasn't done anything special, IMO.

If anything, Burke should get as much credit for creating the team as Chiarelli

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08-03-2010, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
Chiarelli hasn't done anything special, IMO.

If anything, Burke should get as much credit for creating the team as Chiarelli

Oh man... that is a great Avatar!!


I think Sather is around the top 10 GM's in the business.. Real crafty..

Rutherford, Chiarelli, Lou Lams, Holmgren, Wilson, Bowman, Poile, Brian Burke , Mcphee come to mind with no particular order

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08-03-2010, 12:55 PM
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Some very good points by HockeyBasedNYC. Now I'll add a few of my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyRangers View Post
To me in the end the GM's role is to build a team that win's the cup -- regardless of draft position, talent base when you took charge, injuries to players, ownership interference or assitance.

Based on that we've got the following GM's who have been successful:

1. Ken Holland
2. Stan Bowman
3. Ray Shero
4. Lou Lams
5. J. Rutherford
I agree that the above are all successful GMs and better than Glen Sather. However, I disagree with your criteria. Yes, the ultimate goal is to win the cup, but it's very hard to do. The fact that there are only 5 GMs on this list is telling.

There are other GMs in the league who have had levels of success that far surpass what Sather has achieved.

Quote:
What about the rest??? In the other thread someone said that Sather has had 10 years to build a winner but has failed so he sucks. OK, lets look at guys who've been with their teams for atleast 10 years and haven't won the cup.
1. Glenn Sather
2. Darcy Regier
3. David Poile
4. George McPhee
5. Larry Pleau
Poile has done an excellent job in Nashville. I don't know how anyone can rate Sather above him. They are a cap floor team. One of their best young players defected (Radulov). And they still manage to make the playoffs almost every year (they've made it 5 of the last 6 years after being an expansion team in 98-99). They haven't had the postseason success yet, but it's not like our postseasons have been much better.

McPhee hasn't had the postseason success (though they did manage to beat us at least), and he's had the luxury of top 4 picks in Ovechkin and Backstrom, but he took Semin 13th overall and Green 29th overall. They've won their division 3 years running. The Caps won the president's trophy last year and are far and away a better team than the Rangers.

Pleau doesn't have the same resources at his command that Sather does. In the last 10 years, the Blues have been to the playoffs 5 times and won 3 playoff series, including 1 trip to the conference finals. I think I'd have to give Pleau the edge over Sather.

Buffalo is another team that doesn't spend to the cap. They've only made the playoffs 4 times in the last 10 years, just like us, but they've made those opportunities count. 2 division titles, a president's trophy and 2 conference finals appearances.

Quote:
In the next group I'll put GM"s with their teams since 2001 but no later then 2006 who have never won the cup. This group includes the following:
1. Darryl Sutter
2. Peter Chiarelli
3. Garth Snow
4. Paul Holmgren
5. Dean Lombardi
6. Doug Wilson
If winning is the criteria then Sutter, Snow and Lombardi fall below Sather. Chiarelli is right around Sather, Wilson and Holmgren a step above.
Sutter is awful. No argument there. Snow has no money and no free agents want to go there. I'd say the jury is still out on him. And the Kings are another team that haven't spent to the cap. They haven't had as much success over the last 10 years as we have, but that dynamic is likely to shift over the next couple years.

Quote:
Pretty obvious that unlike what's been said in the previous thread Sather is far from the worst GM in the league. Sutter has that crown all by himself. Snow hasn't done squat with the piles since he took over. They still won't make the playoffs. The Blues haven't won a playoff series in 13 seasons -- no way Pleau has done a better job then Sather. Nashville has never won a playoff series since they came in the league -- even though they've had at a minimum of two top 5 draft choices. Obviously Poile ranks below Sather. Finally, Lombardi has put together decent talent in LA but until they start winning in the post season it means squat. He's got to rate below Sather for now. Regier has had 14 years to win the cup. Has come close once but didn't win. Team getting older and looks to have peaked. He's sliding below Sather.
The bolded is wrong. The Blues lost in the conference finals in 2000-01.

Other than that, your arguments have merit. But in the end, whether or not Sather is better than GM X or Y, it doesn't matter. What matters is, is he good enough for the Rangers? Is his track record good enough that he deserves to stay on as the GM? The answer is, emphatically, no. Maybe he's not the worst GM in the league, but that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of his tenure here. He needs to go.

Either Gordie Clark or Jeff Gorton would be better choices for GM. Make Clark the GM, promote Gorton to Director of Player Personnel and make Messier his assistant. Sather stays on as President, smokes his cigars, goes fishing, and has nothing to do with making player decisions for the Rangers.

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08-03-2010, 01:52 PM
  #17
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In rating GM's, I think you have to look at a substantial body of work and if guys haven't put in the years yet, then they get an incomplete. I can't research this appropriately now since I'm at work but I would be willing to guess that, as in most walks of life, you're going to find a few GM's who deserve to be rated above everyone else and then there will be many who are in the middle level and perhaps a few who have "earned" the distinction of being horrible.

I don't see how anyone could argue with Ken Holland and Lou Lamorello. Guys who can sustain success through that many years are a slam dunk. I'm guessing that Sather (the Ranger years) will wind up in the middle section and probably on the lower end of it rather than the top end.

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08-03-2010, 02:46 PM
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Considering Sather's resources and unparalleled history of disastrous free agent signings he is the unquestionably the worst GM in hockey.

Are you going to compare to the Columbus GM and claim he has a better winning percentage? The only super rich team with an arguably comparable record as the Rangers is Toronto and the difference is that the owner occasionally listens to the fans and fires the GM.

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08-03-2010, 10:23 PM
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Why is Stan Bowman ranked so high on your list? He won with Tallon's team.

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08-04-2010, 07:28 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
Why is Stan Bowman ranked so high on your list? He won with Tallon's team.
Based on the following that was originally stated:
"To me in the end the GM's role is to build a team that win's the cup -- regardless of draft position, talent base when you took charge, injuries to players, ownership interference or assitance."
The first five names have all won a cup. Now I don't think that Bowman did much and for that matter neither did Shero. I mean a monkey could have drafted Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Fluery and put warm bodies around them and have a chance at a cup. To me only one GM has been out and out heads above everyone else for the last decade or so and that is Ken Holland. Lou Lams is behind him but his record since the lockout hasn't been that great. After that you've got a bunch of guys who have had varying degrees of success. Finally you've got a group of 4 or 5 gms that have just done a horrible job.

As to the poster who mentioned Poile. I'm not convinced he's done that good of a job. He hasn't drafted any studs, although he's drafted in or around the top 5 a good 4 or 5 times in the last 10 or 12 years. To me you can't be going on 13 seasons and still haven't won a playoff series. Sather has done better than that and yet everyone is calling for his head. Can you imagine if we hadn't won a playoff series since 1998?

Same with Pleau. Before the salary cap that team spent as much money as the Rangers without winning anything. Since the salary cap they've really sucked and had the benefit of some really high draft choices and still haven't gone deep into the playoffs. Granted they've got some good young talent but its taken Pleau 13 seasons to get to this level. Hardly a stunning run of successful team management.

Finally onto GM GM. What has he really done other than sucking enough to get the privaledge of drafting AO? Some of his other draft choices have panned out well but if you really look at what he's done in the last 12 years is it that impressive??? Even with the best player in the league he can't put a team around him to get to the cup. I'm willing to bet if he doens't get it this year he's a goner!

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08-04-2010, 08:10 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers View Post
As to the poster who mentioned Poile. I'm not convinced he's done that good of a job. He hasn't drafted any studs, although he's drafted in or around the top 5 a good 4 or 5 times in the last 10 or 12 years. To me you can't be going on 13 seasons and still haven't won a playoff series. Sather has done better than that and yet everyone is calling for his head. Can you imagine if we hadn't won a playoff series since 1998?

Same with Pleau. Before the salary cap that team spent as much money as the Rangers without winning anything. Since the salary cap they've really sucked and had the benefit of some really high draft choices and still haven't gone deep into the playoffs. Granted they've got some good young talent but its taken Pleau 13 seasons to get to this level. Hardly a stunning run of successful team management.

Finally onto GM GM. What has he really done other than sucking enough to get the privaledge of drafting AO? Some of his other draft choices have panned out well but if you really look at what he's done in the last 12 years is it that impressive??? Even with the best player in the league he can't put a team around him to get to the cup. I'm willing to bet if he doens't get it this year he's a goner!
We can argue the relative merits of each of these GMs, and whether Sather is better or worse than them, but that really isn't the point. The point is, Sather isn't good enough. He hasn't done well enough over the last 10 years with this team.

16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. In the 9 actual seasons Sather has been at the helm, we've made the playoffs 4 times. So slightly more than half make the playoffs and we've made the playoffs slightly less than half the time. That makes us a below average team during his tenure.

Whether he is better than 5, 10 or even 15 other GMs in the league is irrelevant. He isn't good enough. If we want to win a cup, we need different leadership. We've gone through many coaches in the last 10 years. The one constant (other than Dolan) has been Sather.

Like I said before, Sather should be the President only. Promote Gordie Clark to GM, Jeff Gorton to Director of Player Personnel, and make Messier his assistant. Clark and Gorton make all the decisions on who to draft anyway (which most fans would agree has been good the last few years). Let them make the decisions on what free agents to sign and trades to make as well.

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08-04-2010, 08:25 AM
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I don't know enough about most of the GM's to really rank them, though I've always been a huge fan of what David Poile's done in Nashville.

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08-04-2010, 09:04 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJRanger View Post
I don't know enough about most of the GM's to really rank them, though I've always been a huge fan of what David Poile's done in Nashville.
I agree with this 100%. Glen Sather sucks. The only GM i even consider in his league is Sutter and that's saying a lot.

As much as i dislike the isles, i think glen has actually done a great job since he got there. No one wants to play on the island, its been stated. Thats why smyth left, thats likely why kovy wouldnt come here, thats why white didnt. It's a turnoff for so many guys.

Snow has flipped everything he has into a prospect and the islanders pool is actually starting to look good. He did this so quickly as well, as he inherited a mess with the Yashin and Dipietro deals. (I know he was the one who technically signed Dipi but i put that mostly on wang)

Snow>Sather anyday

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