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Update on Price contract talks

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Old
08-05-2010, 10:44 AM
  #76
Pleky Roks
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Price just want out of Montreal.

Who would like to be booed by 21,000 people at the Bell after a bad goal ?

If he was the goalie that everybody THINKS he is, he wouldn't be letting in bad goals....but since he's not that good yet....bad goals are going to happen.....he needs to get his mental game in order and forget about the fans and media and focus on playing hockey and stopping the puck.

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08-05-2010, 10:45 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
So you'd rather sign him long term for more money than he is worth at this point and risk having a #1 goalie that can't win??

Sorry, but you'd make a worse GM than me!!!

I believe in paying players what they are worth and overpaying players that are worth overpaying....Price isn't worth overpaying at this stage in his career. He has a lot to prove before he deserves to get a bunch of money thrown at him.

You're assuming that Price is going to be an elite goalie and signing him now to a 4 or 5 year deal at a very low cap hit makes sense.....but you're forgetting that he might continue to struggle as the Habs #1 goalie and the organization might decide to go in another direction and get a real #1 goalie and move Price.

You have to make a smart deal to cover all situations.....you don't just throw money away to an unproven goalie for 4 or 5 years.
Is Halak being paid fairly by St.Louis?

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08-05-2010, 10:45 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
It's not fallacy...i'm not saying the Caps didn't have any good scoring chances. They did....but the way the Caps & Pens played offensively vs. the Habs as opposed to the Flyers, was completely different.

You can post shot charts all you want, it doesn't change my point of view...

The Habs play a type of system that allows alot of shots against, but limits quality scoring chances...sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.
Strong backfire there huh.

"When proven wrong I'll just admit to being stubborn rather than misinformed."

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08-05-2010, 10:47 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
If he was the goalie that everybody THINKS he is, he wouldn't be letting in bad goals....but since he's not that good yet....bad goals are going to happen.....he needs to get his mental game in order and forget about the fans and media and focus on playing hockey and stopping the puck.

All goals against are bad goals.

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08-05-2010, 10:52 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by maxpower2010 View Post
Strong backfire there huh.

"When proven wrong I'll just admit to being stubborn rather than misinformed."
lol...I didn't know you were on a crusade to 'prove me wrong'.

Again, I wasn't trying to imply that the Caps no good scoring chances or that ALL their shots were from the outside (although i wrote that, i obviously didn't mean ALL of their shots).

But come on...all the Capa did was shoot, shoot and shoot again from every angle...all the Habs did was collapse on Halak and try to protect the slot and block shots.

That was the gameplan...dont' know what so hard to understand here?

Game 7 vs. the Caps, Ovechkin had 10 shots on a goal and I don't think a single one of them was in a prime scoring area (just based off memory, I could be wrong here).

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08-05-2010, 10:54 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
lol...I didn't know you were on a crusade to 'prove me wrong'.

Again, I wasn't trying to imply that the Caps no good scoring chances or that ALL their shots were from the outside (although i wrote that, i obviously didn't mean ALL of their shots).

But come on...all the Capa did was shoot, shoot and shoot again from every angle...all the Habs did was collapse on Halak and try to protect the slot and block shots.

That was the gameplan...dont' know what so hard to understand here?

Game 7 vs. the Caps, Ovechkin had 10 shots on a goal and I don't think a single one of them was in a prime scoring area (just based off memory, I could be wrong here).
A crusade? Please, all it took was a two line post.

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08-05-2010, 10:55 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
lol...I didn't know you were on a crusade to 'prove me wrong'.

Again, I wasn't trying to imply that the Caps no good scoring chances or that ALL their shots were from the outside (although i wrote that, i obviously didn't mean ALL of their shots).

But come on...all the Capa did was shoot, shoot and shoot again from every angle...all the Habs did was collapse on Halak and try to protect the slot and block shots.

That was the gameplan...dont' know what so hard to understand here?

Game 7 vs. the Caps, Ovechkin had 10 shots on a goal and I don't think a single one of them was in a prime scoring area (just based off memory, I could be wrong here).
There was actually 2-3, but Halak had read the play and made the save.

The Semin shooting from everywhere was ridiculous actually helped us more than it did the caps, he was just awful in that series.

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08-05-2010, 10:57 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Is Halak being paid fairly by St.Louis?

Sure he's being paid fairly. He had a great season and great playoffs. He was among the top in the league in save PCT, his GAA was also good and he had 5 shutouts. He played in the most regular season games in his career, he had his most wins and he seen a heck of a lot of shots going 8-0 in games where he seen 40+ shots a game.

His playoff run was incredible. He stepped up his game and shut the door when he was called upon. The team played great defence as well to help Halak out as much as they could, but Halak was amazing in the Caps and Pens series'.

I know he's only had 1 really good season so far, but he has been a consistant, solid goalie since he came to the NHL. He didn't play many games, but he still played well in the few games he played in the last 3 or 4 seasons. Even at his worst, he was still better than Price at his worst.

We'll see this season if Halak is able to put up good numbers with a weaker team in St Louis and earn his pay cheque....but I certainly don't think that Halak is overpaid based on how he's played his entire career.

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08-05-2010, 10:59 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by maxpower2010 View Post
A crusade? Please, all it took was a two line post.
lol are you ok? You seem to be a little heated?

All I said in my original post was...

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"But what amount of those shots are actual quality scoring chances? I think that's more important...
It's like the series vs. the Caps, they had a ton of shots...but they were all shots from the outside.

The Habs systems allows for alot of shots against, but minimal shots from the slot (or dangerous areas)..."
I was asking a QUESTION in relation to your post about the Habs allowing the 4th most amount of shots, and allowing 11th most goals against...

All I was trying to say is that shots against can be a misleading stat...I used the series vs. the Capitals as an example, might not have been the best example...but the point I was trying to make is that allowing the 4th most amout of shots in the NHL, is a result of the type of system the Habs play...

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08-05-2010, 11:00 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
All goals against are bad goals.

Some are much worse than others. Letting in a soft goal when your team just tied the game up or are trailing by a goal are much worse than allowing a goal when your up 4-1!!!

Price let in a lot of team deflating goals last year that were pretty soft. Those goals deflate your teammates and therefore your teammates have less faith in your to keep them in the game. That was the difference between Price and Halak....Halak didn't allow as many soft goals and when he did, he bounced back and kept his team in the game the rest of the way.

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08-05-2010, 11:02 AM
  #86
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Seriously guys, this is about Price's contract, not about last years playoffs, cut the crap.(and yes I'm sorry i got involved in that discussion)

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08-05-2010, 11:10 AM
  #87
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If he was the goalie that everybody THINKS he is, he wouldn't be letting in bad goals....but since he's not that good yet....bad goals are going to happen.....he needs to get his mental game in order and forget about the fans and media and focus on playing hockey and stopping the puck.
Well, Carey Price needs to get his work ethic in order and start taking his career seriously. He was basically being lazy up until the end of January when Markov called him out on it, which is why he had average stats. When he actually tried, we can see he play at an elite level (post-Olympic break).

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08-05-2010, 11:21 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
Some are much worse than others. Letting in a soft goal when your team just tied the game up or are trailing by a goal are much worse than allowing a goal when your up 4-1!!!

Price let in a lot of team deflating goals last year that were pretty soft. Those goals deflate your teammates and therefore your teammates have less faith in your to keep them in the game. That was the difference between Price and Halak....Halak didn't allow as many soft goals and when he did, he bounced back and kept his team in the game the rest of the way.
Agreed...but that's all part of becoming a goaltender in the NHL. It's part of the learning process, to stay focused for 60 or 65+ minutes of a game. I found often times Carey Price would play a great game except for a small lapse where he'd let in a deflating goal...was it bad luck? lack of focus? probably a combination of things really.

But again, that's part of the process for a 22 year old goalie learning his trade in the NHL.

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08-05-2010, 11:39 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
So you'd rather sign him long term for more money than he is worth at this point and risk having a #1 goalie that can't win??
There's always a risk, so that's not terribly interesting. When you sign a player long term you always have to evaluate his performance over a number of years, and you can always end up being wrong. See Plekanec last year. He was getting the exact same treatment as Price today, and yet, looking back, it would have make more sense for Gainey to try to sign him longterm back then.
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Sorry, but you'd make a worse GM than me!!!
A big part of management (in any industry) is to evaluate, quantify and manage risk. Gauthier could lose big time by signing Price long term, but he's also in a position of making a great move too. That's what make the job difficult. The opposite strategy would be to only sign your players for 1 year deals, but you lose the possibility of leveraging a young and great player while he's still pretty cheap.

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I believe in paying players what they are worth and overpaying players that are worth overpaying....Price isn't worth overpaying at this stage in his career. He has a lot to prove before he deserves to get a bunch of money thrown at him.
That's sound very smart until you understand that the entire difficulty of the exercice resides precisely in measuring the "worth" of a player, especially on the long term. Even if we agree that (for example) 3M is too expensive today for Price, will it be instead a great deal in 3 years?

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You're assuming that Price is going to be an elite goalie and signing him now to a 4 or 5 year deal at a very low cap hit makes sense.....but you're forgetting that he might continue to struggle as the Habs #1 goalie and the organization might decide to go in another direction and get a real #1 goalie and move Price.
Everybody understand the risks. The real question is how you manage it. You seem to be willing to not take any risk whatsoever, but then, are you going to whine when Price will want 5M in a few years? That we missed the opportunity to sign him long term when he was still young and learning?

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You have to make a smart deal to cover all situations.....you don't just throw money away to an unproven goalie for 4 or 5 years.
There's no "smart deal that cover all situations", that's the point. If there were, then the GM job would be ridiculously easy.

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08-05-2010, 11:43 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
Some are much worse than others. Letting in a soft goal when your team just tied the game up or are trailing by a goal are much worse than allowing a goal when your up 4-1!!!

Price let in a lot of team deflating goals last year that were pretty soft. Those goals deflate your teammates and therefore your teammates have less faith in your to keep them in the game. That was the difference between Price and Halak....Halak didn't allow as many soft goals and when he did, he bounced back and kept his team in the game the rest of the way.
This coming from you is comical. That's the type of statement that can't be proven or disproven.

I'm sure Halak allowed less soft goals, he also allowed less goals on average, he had a better year than CP and he was statistically among the top 5 in the NHL last year.

Comparing to the season Halak had last year doesn't suddently make him "bad", that's where I find Hab fans lose perspective.

Goaltending was a huge strength for the team last year, and it wasn't just Halak.

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08-05-2010, 12:07 PM
  #91
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It's like the series vs. the Caps, they had a ton of shots...but they were all shots from the outside.
Sorry but you need to re-watch that series. All the shots were not from the outside. They were all taken from inside the Bell Center.

Joking aside, most of the shots were from good scoring positions. The Price fanboys should at the very least admit that. And if you can't admit that, then ask yourself how badly did Price play when he went in if all the shots where from the outside?

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08-05-2010, 12:13 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
There's always a risk, so that's not terribly interesting. When you sign a player long term you always have to evaluate his performance over a number of years, and you can always end up being wrong. See Plekanec last year. He was getting the exact same treatment as Price today, and yet, looking back, it would have make more sense for Gainey to try to sign him longterm back then.
I think you'll find that the vast majority of people who get long term contracts have already largely proven themselves. Restricting the focus to just those coming off their ELCs, I'd be very impressed if you (or anyone else) could provide any sizable list of players who got long term contracts who still had substantial question marks beside their progress projections (extreme counter-example being Crosby and Ovechkin already proved they were worth the league max long term by the time their ELC ran out). Very seldom is a long contract given out to a player largely on the basis of potential. And like someone has already said, GMs are typically extra stingy with the money when it comes to goalies (especially nowadays with the goaltending market "crash").

The pattern seems to me that GMs lock up "proven" players long term, and either make young players sign cheaper, shorter contracts until they're proven, and sign them longer term only if circumstances allow them to significantly "low-ball" the player (from their perspective at the time). Veterans and "proven" players do often get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to money and term (see: Gomez, Drury, Redden, Campbell).

Yes, GMs can be wrong or misjudge the contribution of their linemates to their success, and players can get injured or lured to other leagues, or blown away in a tornado. But I think very rarely will you see one sign a player to a long term deal averaging around 5 million per year if it's widely regarded that he should be paid closer to 2 million in the first year or two... no matter who it is, and no matter if there are people expecting that he'll be worth 6 or 7 million by the end of it.

I'd be grateful for a sizable list of appropriate counter-examples though, if anyone can find/think of any (and no, Toews/Kane obviously don't qualify, since I don't think many will argue that they're worth significantly less than their 6.3M cap hit next year).

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08-05-2010, 12:16 PM
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Agreed...but that's all part of becoming a goaltender in the NHL. It's part of the learning process, to stay focused for 60 or 65+ minutes of a game. I found often times Carey Price would play a great game except for a small lapse where he'd let in a deflating goal...was it bad luck? lack of focus? probably a combination of things really.

But again, that's part of the process for a 22 year old goalie learning his trade in the NHL.

I totally agree with you....in Price's last 10 starts, you could see that he was playing better....it was obvious that he was working harder and playing smarter....but like you said, for whatever reason he'd have a lapse and it usually turned out to cost him a win....its unfortunate because he would have finished the year with a much better record and better numbers than he did if it wasn't for those mental lapses.

I do understand that he is still young...but that being said, Price should have had at least 1 full season in Hamilton before being thrown into the position of being the Habs #1 goalie, but there have been many young goalies that have started their careers at 19, 20, 21 years of age and never looked back. Being a top 5 pick, I think a lot of people, including the Habs management assumed he'd be ready to play in the NHL.

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08-05-2010, 12:26 PM
  #94
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Sorry but you need to re-watch that series. All the shots were not from the outside. They were all taken from inside the Bell Center.

Joking aside, most of the shots were from good scoring positions. The Price fanboys should at the very least admit that. And if you can't admit that, then ask yourself how badly did Price play when he went in if all the shots where from the outside?
I'm not a "Price fan boy"...i've pretty much stayed out of all Price/Halak debates.

I'm of the opinion and always have been, that last year whether Price or Halak was in nets, EITHER OR gave us a better than average chance of winning on any given night.

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08-05-2010, 12:30 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
I totally agree with you....in Price's last 10 starts, you could see that he was playing better....it was obvious that he was working harder and playing smarter....but like you said, for whatever reason he'd have a lapse and it usually turned out to cost him a win....its unfortunate because he would have finished the year with a much better record and better numbers than he did if it wasn't for those mental lapses.

I do understand that he is still young...but that being said, Price should have had at least 1 full season in Hamilton before being thrown into the position of being the Habs #1 goalie, but there have been many young goalies that have started their careers at 19, 20, 21 years of age and never looked back. Being a top 5 pick, I think a lot of people, including the Habs management assumed he'd be ready to play in the NHL.
Like who? I know guys like Ryan Miller, Roberto Luongo, M-A Fleury, Rick DiPietro, Cam Ward, etc all started at a young age...but ALL of them, just like Price had initial success, followed by some trying times...kinda like Price is going through now.

Again, Price's career so far is going along the normal development path for many goalies...the difference is that in Montreal, he's expected to play like Patrick Roy every night he steps onto the ice.

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08-05-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
Price should have had at least 1 full season in Hamilton before being thrown into the position of being the Habs #1 goalie
Which is why I think Price kinda owes Habs' management a bit of a solid for the year or two of guaranteed $850K (+bonuses... he must have attained at least one of them) he made instead of the $50-100K he should have made instead in the AHL.

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08-05-2010, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Like who? I know guys like Ryan Miller, Roberto Luongo, M-A Fleury, Rick DiPietro, Cam Ward, etc all started at a young age...but ALL of them, just like Price had initial success, followed by some trying times...kinda like Price is going through now.

Again, Price's career so far is going along the normal development path for many goalies...the difference is that in Montreal, he's expected to play like Patrick Roy every night he steps onto the ice.
People have very short memory about Roy. He was not THAT perfect.

He was stellar when the pressure was on, in the playoffs. But he gave tons of bad goals too when he had an off night.

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08-05-2010, 01:35 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm not a "Price fan boy"...i've pretty much stayed out of all Price/Halak debates.

I'm of the opinion and always have been, that last year whether Price or Halak was in nets, EITHER OR gave us a better than average chance of winning on any given night.
That is why dealing Halak was really premature. Why not wait until next training camp ? Or at the trade deadline next March to move one or the other ?

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08-05-2010, 01:42 PM
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That is why dealing Halak was really premature. Why not wait until next training camp ? Or at the trade deadline next March to move one or the other ?
2 RFA goaltenders that know they can be number 1 in most teams, will sign for the same team knowing there's gonna be drama again?

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08-05-2010, 02:12 PM
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That is why dealing Halak was really premature. Why not wait until next training camp ? Or at the trade deadline next March to move one or the other ?
Well it wasn't going to be possible to keep both goaltenders...so they traded one.

Did they make the right choice? That remains to be seen, but IMO, choosing Carey Price was a decision they made long ago when they drafted Price 5th overall.

Price has ALWAYS been seen as this team's franchise goalie of the future (immediate future I guess lol), right or wrong, and trading Halak just cemented that.

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