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Preds trade Mike Santorelli to Florida for a conditional 2011 5th

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Old
08-05-2010, 08:28 PM
  #51
Seth Lake
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
OK .... just making sure I was looking at the same data as you.
Yeah, sorry for any confusion. Was running on about 3.5 hours of sleep and the high of nailing the deal and the whole flurry of activity earlier. When I looked at BFC's chart above too it lists a couple AHL contracts that increased the number artifically. It just appeared to conviently tie all the pieces together...

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08-05-2010, 08:34 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
Yeah, sorry for any confusion. Was running on about 3.5 hours of sleep and the high of nailing the deal and the whole flurry of activity earlier. When I looked at BFC's chart above too it lists a couple AHL contracts that increased the number artifically. It just appeared to conviently tie all the pieces together...
It happens to the best of us.

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08-06-2010, 08:06 AM
  #53
David Singleton
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Seth....

Quote:
He played the majority of his NHL stint last season on the second line with Legwand and Erat. They really clicked in training camp, but come October, Santorelli disappeared. If you want to complain about the lack of opportunity he got in Nashville complain about the fact that he was tried on the wing last season where he clearly showed he couldn't be effective playing along the wall. In previous recalls, he had played center and proved he wasn't responsible enough defensively to play center in Nashville.

I wish him all the best. He needed a change of scenery in a bad way and got it. I hope in Florida he's given a shot to play center in a more offensive system where he can keep his feet moving in the middle of the ice and create. I have no idea what Tallon/Santos/DeBoer have planned for him, but this was a good move for both parties.
Seth, I pulled the above from your post over in the Panthers thread.

I found the two things I bolded especially fascinating.

Was Santorelli so much worse than Arnott defensively (as a center) so as not to get the same opportunity? Or was this more a situation where Arnott was a known quantity, and a veteran, so he gets a pass?

Let's make the question more general. Will a young center, who's much more skilled offensively than defensively, be given a chance to succeed and grow in the Trotz system (think Steven Stamkos-like)?

Santorelli may be a bad example, but you get my point. There's a pretty interesting case study that could be made with these four players:

Legwand
Peverly
Santorelli
O'Reilly

All four are/were considered to be very offensively gifted. Legwand adapted and became a very good two-way player. All of the others have been, or appear to be, squeezed out of Nashville. Peverly has gone on to show that he is a very good player. If Santorelli and O'Reilly do that as well (certainly not a given), does that bring even more credence to the question?

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08-06-2010, 09:28 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by David Singleton View Post
Seth, I pulled the above from your post over in the Panthers thread.

I found the two things I bolded especially fascinating.

Was Santorelli so much worse than Arnott defensively (as a center) so as not to get the same opportunity? Or was this more a situation where Arnott was a known quantity, and a veteran, so he gets a pass?

Let's make the question more general. Will a young center, who's much more skilled offensively than defensively, be given a chance to succeed and grow in the Trotz system (think Steven Stamkos-like)?

Santorelli may be a bad example, but you get my point. There's a pretty interesting case study that could be made with these four players:

Legwand
Peverly
Santorelli
O'Reilly

All four are/were considered to be very offensively gifted. Legwand adapted and became a very good two-way player. All of the others have been, or appear to be, squeezed out of Nashville. Peverly has gone on to show that he is a very good player. If Santorelli and O'Reilly do that as well (certainly not a given), does that bring even more credence to the question?
Not to be argumentative, but I don't think Peverly has gone on to prove to be a very good player; serviceable, yes, but lets see how productive he is when he no longer has a top 5 offensive player on his wing.

Yes, Arnie got a pass; so did Dumont. As long as their offense was at a high level. Kids never got that chance. But we saw how things changed for JP after his O slid; Arnie would be harder to move down like that but Trotz woulda' found a way if he was here this year.

As for the implication of our guys developing, I think that depends on Trotz. I believe he has had no choice but to pursue a D-first, 2-way responsible system to have a competitive team. we only had one year where we really had a team with enough firepower to play differently. I think we're moving again in that direction - a better O-skilled team. We might not have true 1st line guys like we had that year, but we have upped our O skills throughout the roster considerably. So, perhaps Trotz philosophy evolves, perhaps not, in which case if you're not a power-forward type like Wilson, you best evolve your game into a solid 2-way player, or your not coming up as a C in our system.

However, don't you think the league as a whole is shifting more in our direction, particularly as teams get in tighter financial situations? With limited resources, seems playing really good D enables you to stay in games and gives you more chances if you just can't outscore the other guys.

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08-06-2010, 11:30 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I don't think Peverly has gone on to prove to be a very good player; serviceable, yes, but lets see how productive he is when he no longer has a top 5 offensive player on his wing.

Yes, Arnie got a pass; so did Dumont. As long as their offense was at a high level. Kids never got that chance. But we saw how things changed for JP after his O slid; Arnie would be harder to move down like that but Trotz woulda' found a way if he was here this year.

As for the implication of our guys developing, I think that depends on Trotz. I believe he has had no choice but to pursue a D-first, 2-way responsible system to have a competitive team. we only had one year where we really had a team with enough firepower to play differently. I think we're moving again in that direction - a better O-skilled team. We might not have true 1st line guys like we had that year, but we have upped our O skills throughout the roster considerably. So, perhaps Trotz philosophy evolves, perhaps not, in which case if you're not a power-forward type like Wilson, you best evolve your game into a solid 2-way player, or your not coming up as a C in our system.

However, don't you think the league as a whole is shifting more in our direction, particularly as teams get in tighter financial situations? With limited resources, seems playing really good D enables you to stay in games and gives you more chances if you just can't outscore the other guys.
Hockey talk. Gotta love it.

Peverly is certainly still unproven.

That said, I'm not sure that the Predators are moving in a more "offensive" direction. Trading Arnott for Lombardi is essentially a move of the pendulum back towards defensive play (Arnott being an offensive player and Lombardi a two-way player whose offense is not that of Arnott of prior seasons in Nashville, last season notwithstanding).

Now, you may see more offense due to the added speed (Kostitsyn as well as Lombardi) allowing for a more counterattacking style. I also agree that the offensive depth is even greater than prior years (with the likely exception of 2006-07).

Tweak my questions a little bit- Is/Was Trotz truly comfortable with Arnott's style of play? If a Stamkos-like player fell into Nashville's lap via FA, would Trotz be comfortable with him on the roster? Does Trotz's comfort level change if it's a FA vs. a homegrown player displaying those same skills? In that same line, would Trotz attempt to change the players style regardless of whether they came to the team as a FA or via the draft?

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08-06-2010, 01:30 PM
  #56
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We probably need to keep this in perspective. Santos is gone because he was a defensive liability (to a point) AND he wasn't producing any offense. Look at Kariya and Dumont as examples. Neither are strong defensive players however they produced offensively. Dumont's offense dropped off last year and look where he ended up. As long as you can and will produce points, your defensive liabilities will be overlooked by Trotz.
As far as Arnott goes, he wasn't a total defensive liability. He wasn't great at it, but he would generally be in position and would do his job.

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08-06-2010, 01:39 PM
  #57
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Trotz didn't try to change Radulov's style. He just didn't want him chasing the puck so much in the defensive zone. Radulov's problems weren't the same as Arnott's and Dumont. Both those guys were slow getting back into the defensive zone but once there, they're both ok, Radulov would chase the puck all the way behind the net, leaving his point wide open.

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08-06-2010, 02:22 PM
  #58
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I don't think Santorelli will ever be a decent NHL player. He has 3 points in 32 games and saw quite a bit of 2nd line time. Peverley and O'Reilly score at a higher pace with less of a chance to succeed than Santo. Also I feel like Santorelli drug his line down. Remember Erat's slump last year, guess his linemate.

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08-06-2010, 04:55 PM
  #59
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When JP was first moved to the bottom 6 he was in the top two point scorers on the team ... and still finished 5th on the team. It becomes an interesting case of which came first .. the chicken or the egg?

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08-06-2010, 07:11 PM
  #60
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JP's production was down this year. To compare him to the rest of the team isn't realistic to be honest. He was lacking on other aspects of the game besides scoring. He had been ave 60-70, last year he was at 45. You can argue it was because his minutes were cut, 3rd and 4th line etc etc. Fine, make that argument but the bottom line is he wasn't playing the same game last year as the year before.

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08-06-2010, 08:11 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
JP's production was down this year. To compare him to the rest of the team isn't realistic to be honest. He was lacking on other aspects of the game besides scoring. He had been ave 60-70, last year he was at 45. You can argue it was because his minutes were cut, 3rd and 4th line etc etc. Fine, make that argument but the bottom line is he wasn't playing the same game last year as the year before.
Then again ... nobody on the team was performing at the same rate as the year before except Hornqvist.

In his first 53 games JP averaged 15:43 TOI and had 37 points ... leading the team at the time and enough to finish tied for 8th. At that point he was on pace for about 52 points for the season.

After then he scored just 8 points with an average TOI of 12:23 in 21 games.


How much of that reduced offense was a result of his less talented linemates is a point of debate (it's commonly used when discussing Legwand). The fact JP was in the top two in points through mid-Feb tends to counter the claim that the demotion was a result of only reduced offensive performance.

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08-06-2010, 08:43 PM
  #62
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You know 101, there are more aspects to a players game then TOI and points. Watching him play 40+ times live and another 30+ times on TV, it was clear that it was not the same JP that was there the year before. He was slow to the puck, he missed plays, he misread breakouts and he missed defensive responsibilities. These were plays and reads that he was making in previous years. I can't tell you the reason, but it would seem that Trotz saw the same thing. He started to get it together towards the end of the year and the playoffs and hopefully that JP shows back up.

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08-06-2010, 08:55 PM
  #63
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I said his performance was down from the season before ... but was still the leading point scorer on the team at the team at the time of his demotion. Name one forward not wearing #27 who was performing at least as well as expected at the time of JP's demotion. Jones? Legwand? Arnott? Sullivan? Erat?

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08-07-2010, 10:30 AM
  #64
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We weren't talking about Jones, Arnott, Legwand yadda yadda yadda. We were talking about Santos lack of defense skill and lack of offense is what lead to a trade. I use Dumont as an example of someone that can be weak defensively but still be part of a Trotz system. You want to get into why Dumont should or should not have been demoted, go start a thread, I won't be joining you.

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08-07-2010, 10:31 AM
  #65
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If anything Dumont's offensive numbers are still strong compared to his teammates.

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08-07-2010, 12:06 PM
  #66
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I'd happily join in on that thread 101st. Dumont's demotion last year was one of the major head scratchers for me last season. Still don't get it. And I'd have to disagree with you on that one jlsg. I thought Dumont was playing admirably before his demotion and was even more impressed with how his hustle to me didn't falter afterwards as I could see happening with many veteran scorers around the league with his scoring history being put in the situation he was. Didn't really have much to work with as far as creating scoring chances at the end of the year...

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08-07-2010, 01:11 PM
  #67
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Never said he wasn't hustling. He was working hard, he just wasn't in the right spot and not getting the right reads. Sometimes wen your not playing well, you can actually hustle too much. You feel you have to work harder and you end up not thinking about where or what you should be doing. Sometimes the best thing is to slow it down and let the game happen.

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08-07-2010, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
Never said he wasn't hustling. He was working hard, he just wasn't in the right spot and not getting the right reads. Sometimes wen your not playing well, you can actually hustle too much. You feel you have to work harder and you end up not thinking about where or what you should be doing. Sometimes the best thing is to slow it down and let the game happen.
I agree with jlsg. Since the Burrows hit, Dumont decision-making and other aspects of his game have become slower and JP has never been a player fast enough to lose that speed when it comes to decision-making.

When Dumont is successful he is seeing the game one-step ahead of the competition. It's what has made him a good playmaking winger over the course of his career despite his lack of any real above-average physical skills. That doesn't show up necessarily on the scoresheet and it must be taken into consideration that when Dumont was moved down the lineup...the level of competition he was facing dropped as well - effectively allowing him to continue scoring at a good clip despite having less talent in his linemates.

That is why Trotz demoted JP, not due to any statistical reasoning, but because if you watched his play...you couldn't help but notice that he hadn't been the same player as he was pre-Burrows. If anything, based on the fact that he was leading the team in scoring at the time of his demotion. I believe that had his decision-making not taken the dip I'm referring to...that the whole SAD line could have achieved much more success last season.

Trotz made the right call and JP knows it. It is the reason that JP has worked hard this season to add muscle and improve his physical skills because that is what it takes to continue to play at this level on a consistent basis when your decision-making skills erode...

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08-07-2010, 02:33 PM
  #69
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I said his performance was down from the season before ... but was still the leading point scorer on the team at the team at the time of his demotion. Name one forward not wearing #27 who was performing at least as well as expected at the time of JP's demotion. Jones? Legwand? Arnott? Sullivan? Erat?
There is no point in asking us to compare Dumont's statistics with anyone else because the fact of the matter is...we're comparing Dumont to Dumont and no one else. He was inconsistent and struggled a lot last season...that lead to his demotion. If anything, due to his point total...he was given too much time on the top line last season...

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08-07-2010, 04:54 PM
  #70
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What are the conditions?

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08-07-2010, 04:59 PM
  #71
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What are the conditions?
Hasn't been announced yet, but I would assume it has to do with time spent on NHL roster next season. Either in terms of games played or number of days on roster...

What is known is if conditions are met, the pick turns into a 4th rounder...

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08-08-2010, 11:22 AM
  #72
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There is no point in asking us to compare Dumont's statistics with anyone else because the fact of the matter is...we're comparing Dumont to Dumont and no one else. He was inconsistent and struggled a lot last season...that lead to his demotion. If anything, due to his point total...he was given too much time on the top line last season...
The question was what forward was living up to expectations ... not a comparison of Dumont to anyone else. Maybe Goc ... but that's it.

The Preds are the only team I can think of in recent memory who demote their leading point scorer for underperforming.

Moving Santo made sense .... the rumors of O'Sullivan have me scratching my head. The team is already having a hard time figuring out where to put all of these forwards on one-way deals and now this name pops up?

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08-08-2010, 11:31 PM
  #73
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Never did I think a Mike Santorelli thread would garner 72 posts.

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08-08-2010, 11:35 PM
  #74
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Never did I think a Mike Santorelli thread would garner 72 posts.
I don't think there were 72 posts discussing Mike Samtorelli while he was a member of the organization!

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08-08-2010, 11:44 PM
  #75
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Never did I think a Mike Santorelli thread would garner 72 posts.
There's nothing else to talk about.

Drop the (frank)ing puck already!

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