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Simmonds for Neal

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Old
08-07-2010, 04:56 PM
  #76
Dominic Roussel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Irreverent View Post
Playing under Marc Crawford vs Terry Murray is a whole different world. Remember the Patrick O'Sullivan and Alexander Frolov under Crawford? They both put up lots of points on crappy, non playoff team. Under Murray, O'Sullivan couldn't stay in the top 6 (and was eventually traded) and Frolov's offensive production dropped along with his PP time and wasn't even offered a contract. Now I'm not saying Neal wouldn't flourish under Terry Murray, but I think the system he employs would change his game a bit. Then again, Neal has proven himself as a viable option on the PP with the (minimal?) offensive depth on the Stars.
Playing under Dave Tippett vs Marc Crawford is also a whole different world, but I think the biggest tell when it comes to Neal is that he was able to put away 24 goals and 37 points in his rookie year with Dave Tippett's system in place. The only real change to his game since then is that he's picked up a lot more assists, but whether that was due to the system change or just natural growth as a player in his Sophomore season, we'll never know.

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08-07-2010, 05:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ManoWarrior View Post
The linemate quality/powerplay time discrepancy between the two explains a fair bit of the point gap between them.
Good point, but if you are getting more ice time in more significant offensive roles (being capable of being 'on the same page' as highly skilled players) and earning PP time among a solid group of forwards, I'd say it's generally due to a greater offensive skill set than a guy who does not find himself in similar situations. So it comes down to what you prefer, a good all around 2nd or 3rd line winger or a good 1st or 2nd line winger who justifies his PP minutes.

Please don't take my point the wrong way, I'm not trying to be boastful of Neal. Of all Stars' skilled players, he's one of my least favorite. Might be because of HF hype?

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08-07-2010, 07:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
Good point, but if you are getting more ice time in more significant offensive roles (being capable of being 'on the same page' as highly skilled players) and earning PP time among a solid group of forwards, I'd say it's generally due to a greater offensive skill set than a guy who does not find himself in similar situations. So it comes down to what you prefer, a good all around 2nd or 3rd line winger or a good 1st or 2nd line winger who justifies his PP minutes.

Please don't take my point the wrong way, I'm not trying to be boastful of Neal. Of all Stars' skilled players, he's one of my least favorite. Might be because of HF hype?
Ya that's a good point, but it goes both ways. Players aren't put on the first line simply because they CAN play there, but because that is where they have the most value on their team. I haven't watched enough of Neal to say this 100% for sure, but his defensive skills are slightly above average and offensive skills are very good. In theory, you would want him in a position where he could show the most of his greatest skill set (offence), this is being the 1st or 2nd line.

Wayne Simmonds is in a different situation. His checking skills are elite (as I suggested, the best checking winger in the league), but his offensive skills are just good. It is very debateable where Simmonds should play in order to perform to the best of his abilities. If he plays on third line that was below average, he makes it very good. If he plays on a first or second line, it might make that line better than it was before, but how much better? If he replaces a one dimensional forward, that forward may not be able to effectively showcase their skill set in the bottom six. On a whole, this move may be (albeit slightly) detrimental to the team. Also it's a lot to ask of a player to be on the first line AND be your best energy player.

BTW, I am not a kings fan

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08-07-2010, 09:50 PM
  #79
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It should be noted that Terry Murray prefers vets on the PP. While he changes his regular lines game to game, he rarely ever changes the PP lines, whether its working or not.

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08-08-2010, 01:56 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
LA would probably have to add a little unless DAL can't come to terms with Neal. DL wouldn't want Neal if that were the case, however. It's closer than most on here realize...
Your name is SF Kings Homer, and everybody else are the ones with the distorted sense of player values. Interesting.

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08-08-2010, 02:04 AM
  #81
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As much as I like Simmonds and believe he'll be a very useful player for the Kings, there is no way Dallas can make this trade. In a couple of seasons, Neal is going to be one of the best powerforwards in the league; and could possible find himself on the Canadian roster in Sochi.

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Old
08-08-2010, 04:31 AM
  #82
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Simmonds + for Neal

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08-08-2010, 11:56 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Zim View Post
I would think something like Simmonds and Teubert for Neal and a pick would be reasonable?
Deal from a Kings standpoint.

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08-08-2010, 12:03 PM
  #84
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I like Simmonds but some of our fan base overvalue him a bit too much. He's solid but not great and I don't see enough creativity to be a 25 goal scorer. Neal will be a 30 goal scorer next year. Sure Wayne bring a lot of other things to the table but I'll choose a possible star over a likely role player.

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08-08-2010, 12:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by no name View Post
I like Simmonds but some of our fan base overvalue him a bit too much. He's solid but not great and I don't see enough creativity to be a 25 goal scorer. Neal will be a 30 goal scorer next year. Sure Wayne bring a lot of other things to the table but I'll choose a possible star over a likely role player.
W3RD ya'll just ended this thread.

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08-08-2010, 12:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by crazyaces View Post
One could argue that if Simmonds was playing against the other teams top pairing Dmen (like Neal is) then his stats might be lower or level off. Simmonds has a mutch better supporting cast to work with in LA then Neal does in Dallas, no Question that Neal is by far a much more valuable player. Both players are fan favorites and niether team wants to see their player traded away.

I'm a fan of neither team, but my unbiased opinion says that fair value to land Neal would be Simmonds and Schenn - But LA Don't make that deal, and their 10 yr rebuilding plan continues.
Theres not really any comparison between who Neal plays with and Simmonds plays with.

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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
You don't need to be a king fan to say no to this.
So what you are saying is that being 21 he has no chance ever off adding another 10-15 pts to his stat line each year? Especially when you look at the simple fact that Simmonds only got 13:40 a game at ES, playing a checking role.

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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
You can't really compare the two players based on stats because one is in a checking role (Simmonds), and other is in more of a scoring role (Neal).

You also have to understand that in two seasons, Simmonds has basically reached god like status among both Kings' fans, and upper management. The organization LOVES him.

He wouldn't be traded even for a vast overpayment.

Even if Neal has more value, I wouldn't trade Simmonds for him straight up.
And thats a huge part that people overlook. One is being put in a position to achieve offensive success the other is achieving it despite not being put into that position. Its amazing how Simmonds supposedly isnt close to these guys talent levels yet hes producing very similar totals at ES despite playing a checking role.

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08-08-2010, 12:59 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Your name is SF Kings Homer, and everybody else are the ones with the distorted sense of player values. Interesting.
Yawns. Come back when you say something creative.

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08-08-2010, 01:03 PM
  #88
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Coming from an outside perspective: the Kings have to add to reach fair value.


I understand Simmonds is a key role player for you with massive upside, however, Neal has more skill, and that drives the price up. No matter how good Simmonds fits into the Kings' system, it doesn't mean his value is as high as how the Kings fans & franchise view him.

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08-08-2010, 01:24 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Theres not really any comparison between who Neal plays with and Simmonds plays with.

So what you are saying is that being 21 he has no chance ever off adding another 10-15 pts to his stat line each year? Especially when you look at the simple fact that Simmonds only got 13:40 a game at ES, playing a checking role.

And thats a huge part that people overlook. One is being put in a position to achieve offensive success the other is achieving it despite not being put into that position. Its amazing how Simmonds supposedly isnt close to these guys talent levels yet hes producing very similar totals at ES despite playing a checking role.
Neal put himself in position to be successful. His rookie year he was successful and played a third line role most of the season. He earned his way onto the top line last year. Simmonds apparently can't surpass two RWs in order to get himself onto a top line. The Kings aren't exactly one of the deepest teams at forward so why hasn't Simmonds earned himself significant powerplay time?

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08-08-2010, 01:35 PM
  #90
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....because Simmonds didnt earn the powerplay time and isnt just as good as Neal (yet). Not to mention ES, PK and also PP might be a little to much for him at this point.

The problem is most people just refuse to read. They both have 2 full NHL seasons under their belt while one player is one year younger than the other + a few other things that need to be said before people are claiming the Kings need to add a ton, Staples Center or whatever.

No need to tell that Neal has more trade value because one or two Kings fans disagree.

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08-08-2010, 02:12 PM
  #91
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Well, I think that it's unanimous that Simmonds++ for Neal would work. Now what about each player individually. What is the value of Neal and Simmonds seperatly. What would be a good value, not what it would actually take to land him( probably would warrant an overpayment).

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08-08-2010, 02:14 PM
  #92
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I think most kings fans can agree that Neal has more value, we just don't think that extra value is a ton. Its a 2nd round pick, a mid level prospect or a roster player like parse. Its + not ++++

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08-08-2010, 02:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by txomisc View Post
Neal put himself in position to be successful. His rookie year he was successful and played a third line role most of the season. He earned his way onto the top line last year. Simmonds apparently can't surpass two RWs in order to get himself onto a top line. The Kings aren't exactly one of the deepest teams at forward so why hasn't Simmonds earned himself significant powerplay time?
Because outside of Kopitar and Doughty the coaches go with veterans. No matter what they werent going to put him out over Smyth, Brown, Handzus,Kopitar, Williams, Stoll and Frolov. Somehow for not being so deep at forward he had a lot of depth in front him for pp time. 6 guys who have scored 30 goals in the NHL are going to get PP time over a 21 yr old sophomore.

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08-08-2010, 04:04 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ManoWarrior View Post
Ya that's a good point, but it goes both ways. Players aren't put on the first line simply because they CAN play there, but because that is where they have the most value on their team. I haven't watched enough of Neal to say this 100% for sure, but his defensive skills are slightly above average and offensive skills are very good. In theory, you would want him in a position where he could show the most of his greatest skill set (offence), this is being the 1st or 2nd line.

Wayne Simmonds is in a different situation. His checking skills are elite (as I suggested, the best checking winger in the league), but his offensive skills are just good. It is very debateable where Simmonds should play in order to perform to the best of his abilities. If he plays on third line that was below average, he makes it very good. If he plays on a first or second line, it might make that line better than it was before, but how much better? If he replaces a one dimensional forward, that forward may not be able to effectively showcase their skill set in the bottom six. On a whole, this move may be (albeit slightly) detrimental to the team. Also it's a lot to ask of a player to be on the first line AND be your best energy player.

BTW, I am not a kings fan
Maybe, and it's good to get an unbiased opinion, but you don't remain relegated to the third line if you have offensive top 6, possibly top 3 skills. LA does not have the depth up front to justify it. Simmonds is young and we've already seen him move up the lines, I don't know with what kind of success (Kings fans could quote it) but we'll see if he has the tools to stay there.

Jere Lehtinen was/is proven to be elite defensively, yet he had the skill that kept him in the top 6, making any line better with his defensive play while put up solid totals. MOTS, you don't keep a skilled player in a 3rd line checking role and off the PP just because he is an elite checker. I'm not saying Simmonds can't, won't or shouldn't move up the line up or that he can't be successful, it's been the case to date that Neal has a little more offensive jam ultimately leaving him with the higher ceiling (greater current value) of the two.


Last edited by Karitimes: 08-08-2010 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Did I really spell Neal wrong? And correct it after beers?
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08-08-2010, 04:11 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
Maybe, and it's good to get an unbiased opinion, but you don't remain relegated to the third line if you have offensive top 6, possibly top 3 skills. LA does not have the depth up front to justify it. Simmonds is young and we've already seen him move up the lines, I don't know with what kind of success (Kings fans could quote it) but we'll see if he has the tools to stay there.

Jere Lehtinen was/is proven to be elite defensively, yet he had the skill that kept him in the top 6, making any line better with his defensive play while put up solid totals. MOTS, you don't keep a skilled player in a 3rd line checking role and off the PP just because he is an elite checker. I'm not saying Simmonds can't, won't or shouldn't move up the line up or that he can't be successful, it's been the case to date that Neil has a little more offensive jam ultimately leaving him with the higher ceiling (greater current value) of the two.
Hes got two guys who have scored 30 goals ahead of him on the right side and had 2 guys that could score 30 on the other side. Who exactly was he supposed to play ahead of?

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08-08-2010, 05:00 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Hes got two guys who have scored 30 goals ahead of him on the right side and had 2 guys that could score 30 on the other side. Who exactly was he supposed to play ahead of?
The telling words that help make my point more clear. No different in Dallas...safe to say Dallas' LW is deeper than LA RW?

When did they and who's gonna and why not Wayne?

LA does not have the incredible depth on the wing presently, although DL doing nothing more than out with Frolov in with Poni, could suggest otherwise, though I have my doubts.

If Simmonds has as good of offensive upside as some fans suggest, I suspect we'll soon see him in the top 6 and playing in more similar situations to that of James Neal.

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08-08-2010, 06:32 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Jon Casey 91 View Post
Maybe, and it's good to get an unbiased opinion, but you don't remain relegated to the third line if you have offensive top 6, possibly top 3 skills. LA does not have the depth up front to justify it. Simmonds is young and we've already seen him move up the lines, I don't know with what kind of success (Kings fans could quote it) but we'll see if he has the tools to stay there.

Jere Lehtinen was/is proven to be elite defensively, yet he had the skill that kept him in the top 6, making any line better with his defensive play while put up solid totals. MOTS, you don't keep a skilled player in a 3rd line checking role and off the PP just because he is an elite checker. I'm not saying Simmonds can't, won't or shouldn't move up the line up or that he can't be successful, it's been the case to date that Neil has a little more offensive jam ultimately leaving him with the higher ceiling (greater current value) of the two.
This is a philosophical issue. It varies from coach to coach. Some coaches might go for a more rounded lineup, others may try to load up the top two lines, depending on what they think makes a better team. It does seem that Murray prefers vets to get ice time, which also figures into it. But yes, my guess would be that he soon forces his way into the top six.

In the playoffs (I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned more), he was the only forward who was a consistent threat at even strength, out playing players like Brown and Kopitar. He was bumped up to the top line where he was very effective. He kind of reminds me of Kesler, really athletic and extremely driven. If I was going to guess what kind of player he will be in his prime, I would guess a 70ish point player with some Selke nominations (difficult to get as a winger), while being good captain material.

Ya, technically Neal has more value because he scored more points. Simmonds might have more moneyball value, if you will, as he might have put up similar numbers in the same situation. I would personally take Simmonds over Neal. Also remember that really good production early in an NHL career doesn't necessarily mean that they'll become great. See: Tanguay, Alex. It's not a given that he'll be a perennial 40+ goal scorer in a couple seasons as some people are suggesting.

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08-08-2010, 07:04 PM
  #98
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Murray works in pairs. Smyth-kopi. Stoll-brown. Zus-simmonds. It takes a disaster for him to splitup those pairs. One of the biggest complaints we have about Murray is that he doesn't promote and demote players consistently. Frolov got shuffled on a dime. Brown could play several terrible games in a row and not move lines. When Williams got hurt simmonds got bumped to play with kopi over brown. I believe simmonds scored goals in his first four games on the 1st line. Then smyth got hurt and the whole offense went to ****.

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08-08-2010, 07:17 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Serpico4ever View Post
Nope, he's not as offensively skilled as Neal, but he brings other assetts to the table and they're not exactly intangible. He's a physical presence, that is important, don't you think? Also, he'll most likely be as offensively productive as Dustin Brown some day (LA fans correct me if I'm wrong).

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08-08-2010, 07:43 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by flames123 View Post
You might wanna check Dustin Brown's stats. His career high is 60 points. He's about a 55 point player. If Simmonds plays in the top six next year, it's really not a stretch to suggest he'll get 15 more points and it's very likely he'll get 55 points "some day".

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