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Can Anyone Explain How Redden Was a Plus/Minus Leader in 2009/10?

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Old
08-08-2010, 12:05 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
I just don't get the feeling that he cares about anything that is going on on the ice when he's out there. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my impression.
I think that's what fans hate the most about him. He plays the game like a civil servant in a communist country. If they win 10-0 or lose 10-0 he gets paid the same.

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08-08-2010, 01:31 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
I would think that you should have figured out that this was the reason that I started the thread in the first place. Redden is so horrid that him being a plus/minus leader makes absolutely no sense.

So we are looking for logical explanations. You obviously don't have one.
A number of people on this thread have tried to give logical responses to your question. I recognize that many people here hate the fact that Redden is still on the NHL roster and hope/expect him to gone by the beginning of the season. And I was never in favor of signing him--I've followed his career from the beginning a feared that his decline would continue. However, as a 3rd pairing defenseman who is not expected to play against other teams better players, he can hold his own (much as it pains me to say it). His lack of passion is a problem, his inablity to raise his game above what he shows now and his contract make him a problem. Hopefully, the Redden "problem" will disappear soon. But, given this assignment on the team with past season, it doesn't surprise me at all that Redden managed to be a plus player.

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08-08-2010, 02:02 AM
  #53
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To sum it up quickly....we can all argue about whether plus minus is useful or not

but....

it obviously does not tell the caliber of a player

Marc Staal was barely better than Redden in plus minus.....does that mean he's only a slightly better player....absolutely not.

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08-08-2010, 02:07 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
To sum it up quickly....we can all argue about whether plus minus is useful or not

but....

it obviously does not tell the caliber of a player

Marc Staal was barely better than Redden in plus minus.....does that mean he's only a slightly better player....absolutely not.
especially since Staal was regularly matched up against Crosby, AO, Parise, Kovalchuk, etc. and Redden plays against the crappiest players the other team throws at us.

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08-08-2010, 02:15 AM
  #55
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Check out Brooks latest article...

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08-08-2010, 02:32 AM
  #56
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redden is still good defence and better than staal. i hope that wade stays NYR

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08-08-2010, 04:18 AM
  #57
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This horse has been beat to death and the outcome remains constant: Redden blows.

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08-08-2010, 07:53 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
I would think that you should have figured out that this was the reason that I started the thread in the first place. Redden is so horrid that him being a plus/minus leader makes absolutely no sense.

So we are looking for logical explanations. You obviously don't have one.
You made a statement that I proved was wrong so you came up with that luck is behind it all. Losers in life claim it's about their bad luck. When losing a discussion of fact and logic, resorting to a reasoning of it must be luck is also quite weak. Again, it is you that can't reconcile facts with logic, so you are in an illogical position.

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08-08-2010, 08:04 AM
  #59
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Uh, yes. He is.

He was the leader because he got limited ice time against the team's bottom 6 for the most part.
I would love to see how you came up with that.

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08-08-2010, 09:22 AM
  #60
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+/- is the worst stat. seeing how redden has one of the best ones on the team proves it cause the guy sucks ass. he is terrible. not just his contract but his play itself. the guy lost it.

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08-08-2010, 09:36 AM
  #61
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Someone said that +/- can't be compared across teams. I'd go further than that. +/- can't be compared across roles. What the +/- shows is that Redden played adequately for the role he was asked to play. Specifically a 5/6 defenseman not playing against the other team's top players. Is $6.5m too much for that? Absolutely it is. But that doesn't change the fact that he had a adequate season as a 3rd pair D. And the +/- reflects that.

If it weren't for the Cap there would be no doubt he'd get onto the roster based on his play during camp. However, he's going to have to vastly outplay a young and cheaper option and I think we all know that won't happen.

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08-08-2010, 10:30 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
+/- is the worst stat. seeing how redden has one of the best ones on the team proves it cause the guy sucks ass. he is terrible. not just his contract but his play itself. the guy lost it.
for some reason this made me lol

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08-08-2010, 11:19 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by cancer View Post
redden is still good defence and better than staal. i hope that wade stays NYR
Legitimately good defensemen don't play only 17 minutes a game. And he's not anywhere near as good as Staal. On average Staal played 6 more minutes a game and against better players, and was overall more consistent in doing that. I think it's hard to argue against that. If you don't believe me go re-watch the game from last season

In any case, we brought in Redden for his supposed offense. He has contributed none of that, and has shown that his impressive offensive numbers in previous years were probably more reflective of him being surrounded by elite talent on a regular basis.

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08-08-2010, 11:36 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You made a statement that I proved was wrong so you came up with that luck is behind it all. Losers in life claim it's about their bad luck. When losing a discussion of fact and logic, resorting to a reasoning of it must be luck is also quite weak. Again, it is you that can't reconcile facts with logic, so you are in an illogical position.

Really? You claiming that redden "almost never hurt the team" and that proved me wrong?

If he almost never hurt the team why do we have thread after thread here urging the Rangers to get rid of him?

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08-08-2010, 01:42 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by abev View Post
I would love to see how you came up with that.
There is no equation for this, if you watched the games Torts put Staal and Girardi against teams top lines as much as possible, especially against elite teams. When they were not a pair and we were facing teams like the Panthers, Hurricanes, Tampa, etc it was Staal and Rozy and Girardi and MDZ with those units usually on the ice against teams top 2 lines. Redden and his partner (gilroy/anders) were not typically out there against Ovechkin, Crosby, Carter, etc.

Thats not to say he never played against top players, but especially after the trade deadline when Torts was trying to start a run Redden's time really began to diminish and Staal and Rozy's time noticeably increased.

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08-08-2010, 01:56 PM
  #66
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the only way i could understand someone defending redden is by saying that his contract is sathers fault. but some people here are saying hes not that bad. unbelievable. the guy sucks. any ounce of talent the guy had is gone. hes a ****ing joke. im embarrased for him. please get this off the team

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08-08-2010, 02:00 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by abev View Post
I would love to see how you came up with that.
Other than TOI/G during the 2009-2010 season (in which Staal averaged 23 minutes, 6 more than Redden), you really can't find a stat that would show you that. It's sheer common sense. If you had watched hockey, and the Rangers, you'd of realized that.

Even other team fans realized that Staal was always out there against there teams top players.

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08-08-2010, 10:19 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Someone said that +/- can't be compared across teams. I'd go further than that. +/- can't be compared across roles. What the +/- shows is that Redden played adequately for the role he was asked to play. Specifically a 5/6 defenseman not playing against the other team's top players. Is $6.5m too much for that? Absolutely it is. But that doesn't change the fact that he had a adequate season as a 3rd pair D. And the +/- reflects that.

If it weren't for the Cap there would be no doubt he'd get onto the roster based on his play during camp. However, he's going to have to vastly outplay a young and cheaper option and I think we all know that won't happen.
I don't totally agree with that sentiment.

Like I said earlier, regardless of salary I don't think Tortorella wants him on board even on the bottom pair. He's just so slow & so ordinary at this point that Torts would rather go with another player that could help keep the tempo up on offense rather than kill the momentum like Redden can/does.

I think in most situations around the league what you said is true. He'd no doubt be on a roster if he was being paid in line or close to in line with his current talents.

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08-08-2010, 10:22 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Check out Brooks latest article...
I read it.

Brooks' specific scenario regarding Redden is full of ****.

If he didn't include that it might have been a good piece.

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08-10-2010, 06:28 PM
  #70
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Redden was always garbage. Never could stand the guy. Benefited from being on one of the best teams in the league for a long time. The man single handedly cost the Senators season after season. His post season gaffes are legendary. When the Sens stopped being elite, he was exposed. Sather just slept through that season.

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08-11-2010, 05:50 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
Really? You claiming that redden "almost never hurt the team" and that proved me wrong?

If he almost never hurt the team why do we have thread after thread here urging the Rangers to get rid of him?
Because ignorant fans are incapable of understanding how NHL defensemen play. Anyone who believes that DelZotto was better than Redden at even strength last year has not a shred of a clue about how to judge hockey skills.

Certain fans feel the need to downgrade dmen who don't pulverize the opponent. Always been that way, always will be that way. That is why there are endless threads of this ilk.

That Redden managed to extract millions from the village idiot compounds the problem. Idiots see Redden as the problem for getting his cash, never seeming to fully grasp that no one put a gun to the village idiot's head saying that he had better vastly overpay or else.

Your beef should be with the village idiot, not Redden.

On a side note, folks who post laughing icons or lols after they write something, as a way of saying "you're an idiot" always make me laugh at them.

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08-11-2010, 06:26 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Because ignorant fans are incapable of understanding how NHL defensemen play. Anyone who believes that DelZotto was better than Redden at even strength last year has not a shred of a clue about how to judge hockey skills.

Certain fans feel the need to downgrade dmen who don't pulverize the opponent. Always been that way, always will be that way. That is why there are endless threads of this ilk.

That Redden managed to extract millions from the village idiot compounds the problem. Idiots see Redden as the problem for getting his cash, never seeming to fully grasp that no one put a gun to the village idiot's head saying that he had better vastly overpay or else.

Your beef should be with the village idiot, not Redden.

On a side note, folks who post laughing icons or lols after they write something, as a way of saying "you're an idiot" always make me laugh at them.
Lighten up Francis...... Calling fans ignorant is over the line... However, I do agree that Redden can be effective in the NHL.. His game was never flashy with the big hits or end to end rushes.. His game was cerebral with making the smart plays with good outlet passes.

Comparing Redden with Del Zotto at even strength does make sense.. but right now Del Zotto's strength is on the Power play. He just seems like a natural raking up the points being the PP QB back there. I would think Del Zotto's even strength game will improve through the years...

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08-11-2010, 05:51 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
At +8, there were only 3 Rangers that had a better plus/minus rating than Wade Redden this past season. And one of them (Christensen) only played 49 games. Our eyes don't deceive us. He's virtually worthless as a defenseman. How is it possible that he's a plus player at all? I know that some people discount the stat but unsurprisingly Gaborik has the best plus/minus and he's obviously the best play aside from Lunqvist.

PS - Del Zotto is dead last.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/stats?team=nyr
Because he isn't nearly as bad defensively as a lot of people think. Redden played so so defense last year. Just because he can't put up the points you cant take that away from him.

Del Zotto dead last? Anyone else surprised? He was bottom five in the NHL I believe. Del Zotto was AWFUL defensively, hence his +/- fits him. Redden was decent defensively, hence his +/- fits him. Redden is vastly superior defensively to Del Zotto regardless of his inferior speed or puck handling ability.

+/- is an important stat. People use +/- as an important stat in support of players and discount it to argue against others. But, personally I think it's an important stat. You want to be on the ice when your team scores. You don't want to be on the ice more often when your team is scored against. Simple to me.

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08-11-2010, 07:43 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by msv957 View Post
Lighten up Francis...... Calling fans ignorant is over the line... However, I do agree that Redden can be effective in the NHL.. His game was never flashy with the big hits or end to end rushes.. His game was cerebral with making the smart plays with good outlet passes.

Comparing Redden with Del Zotto at even strength does make sense.. but right now Del Zotto's strength is on the Power play. He just seems like a natural raking up the points being the PP QB back there. I would think Del Zotto's even strength game will improve through the years...
Sorry you're offended, Antny, but when there are 500 threads saying that Redden must go, it becomes tiresome to those of us that understand that Redden was not the problem with the Rangers last year. If you flipped Redden for Pronger last year, they were still going nowhere.

Endlessly focusing on Redden misses the point of what the disease is, and it ain't him.

Of course DelZotto will get better and he is already a good offensive dman. I was just trying to put the issue of Redden hurting the Rangers in its true perspective. He didn't help. He didn't hurt. He was a non-factor.

He is singled out for salary reasons only, not on-ice performance. Sometimes it seems like fans want him to turn in his salary, like they would ever consider doing something like that.

Remember this truism, fans turn on defensemen like clockwork, but forwards go relatively unscathed, while most fanbases like their goaltending.

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08-11-2010, 08:26 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post

+/- is an important stat. People use +/- as an important stat in support of players and discount it to argue against others. But, personally I think it's an important stat. You want to be on the ice when your team scores. You don't want to be on the ice more often when your team is scored against. Simple to me.
You don't delve into the player match-ups nearly enough to understand the importance of +/- as it related to any individual player... You can't make inferences or generalizations about their play based on their +/- without looking at who they're often playing with on the ice, and who they're often playing again (with regards to line match ups)...


Last edited by wolfgaze: 08-11-2010 at 08:32 PM.
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