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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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Old
08-07-2010, 11:22 PM
  #751
cbcwpg
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Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
Are the Oilers community owned? IIRC green bay in NFL and a handful of European teams were city property.

Glendale buying would be even less likely than a move.

They've made it clear they aren't interested in footing the bill with a separate ownership.

Is it possible the NHL can own the team like they did last year, then sell it to a buyer who works a deal through with CoG?
As someone mentioned before, there is a big difference between community ownership and gov't ownership. In the case of the Packers, they are not owned by the City of Green Bay gov't, they are owned by the fans who have purchased shares in the Corporation known as the Green Bay Packers. EX. In 1998 fans bought 120,010 shares for $200 a piece. They have 112,015 shareholders.

Now I guess the NHL could try to sell the team to the community of Glendale and sell shares, but not to sound negative, if the Coyotes have trouble filling the building with fans, how many people would by shares? And using the Packers price of $200 per share as a number, that would require 800,000 shares be sold to cover the $160 million the NHL wants.

And just some rules on the Packers shares...Shares of stock include voting rights, but the redemption price is minimal, no dividends are ever paid, the stock cannot appreciate in value - though private sales often exceed the face value of the stock, and stock ownership brings no season ticket privileges. No shareholder may own over 200,000 shares, a safeguard to ensure that no individual can assume control of the club.

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08-07-2010, 11:56 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
I was being facetious.

The NHL is not violating it's own Constitution by owning the 'Yotes.
Right. I got it now...

GHOST

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08-08-2010, 12:04 AM
  #753
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Why do I keep remembering that it would be illegal for Glendale to own the team? Back when it was still Jim vs JR vs IE, then Jim vs no one until the NHL stepped in, I remember people asking "Why doesn't Glendale just buy them" and I'm certain there was a justifiable reason that nixed that option and it was put to bed. All of a sudden it's an option again. What exactly am I remembering?
No, it's just idle speculation here. I don't think there's ever been any official mention of it.



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What possible relevance could any of that have to this thread?

GHOST
I asked how the F 35 contract would change anything after this post:

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Originally Posted by kingbrutis View Post
Glendale will buy the team before that happens. This has nothing to do with hockey, but Luke AFB has all but ben granted the F 35 contract. That means billions and billions in revenue for Glendale. What would 150 million mean? It's like buying a big mac. Would the NHL approve a city as an owner, yes cause they know they would have the money and would save face. Glendale can sell the team or whatever. It cannot be understated what that contract means in $$$$$ revenue.

 
Old
08-08-2010, 12:13 AM
  #754
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So, we are just waiting for news I take it: re. the new so-called owners and any magical CFD, etc.

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08-08-2010, 08:40 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Fortunately for the NHL it does seem to allow an Unincorporated Not-for-Profit Association.
Hmmm...so could they get Charitable write offs then?

"Yes I'd like to own an NHL team...no it's a charity you see, not for profit, so yea, anyway I have this 50 million dollar payroll I'd like to write off as charity expenses...."


I
Quote:
was being facetious.

The NHL is not violating it's own Constitution by owning the 'Yotes.
Be funny if it did Get into Chicken or Egg territory there.


I'm thinking we'll get some big news tomorrow, right after the Kovy announcement is made, we'll get some big announcement from IEH saying "things are going smoothly, don't look behind the curtain", and then Toronto trades Kaberle to Anaheim for Ryan, Meitra, and all Anaheims's draft picks in the 2011 and 2012 drafts....

To which everyone will say Toronto got hosed in the deal

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08-08-2010, 09:30 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Hmmm...so could they get Charitable write offs then?

"Yes I'd like to own an NHL team...no it's a charity you see, not for profit, so yea, anyway I have this 50 million dollar payroll I'd like to write off as charity expenses...."


I

Be funny if it did Get into Chicken or Egg territory there.
The NHL has always been a do as I say, not as I do kinda group though....

Quote:
I'm thinking we'll get some big news tomorrow, right after the Kovy announcement is made, we'll get some big announcement from IEH saying "things are going smoothly, don't look behind the curtain", and then Toronto trades Kaberle to Anaheim for Ryan, Meitra, and all Anaheims's draft picks in the 2011 and 2012 drafts....

To which everyone will say Toronto got hosed in the deal
No way Anaheim does that. More like Kaberle, Kessel, Monster and their next 4 first for Bobby Ryan. The very next thread will mention that that Phil Kessel is the second coming of you know who, and someone will prove that Kaberle is actually better than Chris Pronger using the exact same stats some random Leafs fan was getting ridiculed for earlier in the year..... Bobby Ryan meanwhile will become the next Daigle...

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08-08-2010, 10:38 AM
  #757
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I do believe its coming Ghost. Not in any sweeping format. But the fact is, cities are getting sick & tired of having their constituents held hostage by predatory owners of THEIR teams. Much of a cities pride & identity is tied to their teams. In Glendales case, it may not be feasible or practicable, may not even be legal for all I know, but its worth thought/exploration. Desperate times n' all.
I still highly doubt that it can or will happen in this case. The financial mountain is too high for a municipality as small as Glendale to take the risk.

I think that if the NHL is bound and determined to have a franchise in Phoenix and it is financially too onerous with the previous history, then it makes more sense for them to sell the team to recoup their investment, and establish an expansion franchise on the cheap in a few years. At that point, they can dictate terms to Glendale (or whomever) on the lease and establish a cost that is not prohibitive (i.e. much less than $160-170 million) for a new ownership group. A big part of the problem right now is the selling price, which was dictated by the competition from Balsillie in the bankruptcy proceedings and the need to cover operating losses last year.

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08-08-2010, 11:55 AM
  #758
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I still highly doubt that it can or will happen in this case. The financial mountain is too high for a municipality as small as Glendale to take the risk.
I agree Whilee. It was just an idea that's been floated. With a population of what, 200,000 - 250,000 (?), its' just not practicable. If Phoenix itself & surrounding boroughs (most of which have massive deficits to deal with amongst many other problems) kicked in then ya, could be done; impossible mountain to climb with all kinds of conflicting interests. Even if it was somehow possible for Glendale to go it alone, the hour is awfully late. It may be a journey up the Kyber without a paddle, but its worth exploring, as it has worked elsewhere beyond GreenBay. My favorite being the "Toledo Mud Hawks" (Corporal Klingers' team - MASH) which is community owned.

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Old
08-08-2010, 12:17 PM
  #759
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38 Days until pre-season starts, tick-tock....

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Old
08-08-2010, 12:52 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I agree Whilee. It was just an idea that's been floated. With a population of what, 200,000 - 250,000 (?), its' just not practicable. If Phoenix itself & surrounding boroughs (most of which have massive deficits to deal with amongst many other problems) kicked in then ya, could be done; impossible mountain to climb with all kinds of conflicting interests. Even if it was somehow possible for Glendale to go it alone, the hour is awfully late. It may be a journey up the Kyber without a paddle, but its worth exploring, as it has worked elsewhere beyond GreenBay. My favorite being the "Toledo Mud Hawks" (Corporal Klingers' team - MASH) which is community owned.
Back to reality. Hockey is not the major sport in Arizona. It ranks just behind mountain climbing in Sedona and Flagstaff. There is a core of hockey fans here but clearly not enough to warrant a community owned team. The sport is growing fast down here but the market is 20 years away from becoming a real hockey town.

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08-08-2010, 10:58 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Back to reality. Hockey is not the major sport in Arizona. It ranks just behind mountain climbing in Sedona and Flagstaff. There is a core of hockey fans here but clearly not enough to warrant a community owned team. The sport is growing fast down here but the market is 20 years away from becoming a real hockey town.
It's already been 15. Does it really take 35 years to grow hockey fans in AZ? I would think it would have to grow faster than that to have any hope of survival.

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08-09-2010, 12:51 AM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I agree Whilee. It was just an idea that's been floated. With a population of what, 200,000 - 250,000 (?), its' just not practicable. If Phoenix itself & surrounding boroughs (most of which have massive deficits to deal with amongst many other problems) kicked in then ya, could be done; impossible mountain to climb with all kinds of conflicting interests. Even if it was somehow possible for Glendale to go it alone, the hour is awfully late. It may be a journey up the Kyber without a paddle, but its worth exploring, as it has worked elsewhere beyond GreenBay. My favorite being the "Toledo Mud Hawks" (Corporal Klingers' team - MASH) which is community owned.
Killion, you have a good imagination. Very silly, but still good.

GHOST

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08-09-2010, 09:33 AM
  #763
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It's already been 15. Does it really take 35 years to grow hockey fans in AZ? I would think it would have to grow faster than that to have any hope of survival.
How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.

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38 Days until pre-season starts, tick-tock....
We hear that every year. It's become a mark of distinction that the team survives despite it all.

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08-09-2010, 09:40 AM
  #764
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How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
It is not really about a country, but about specific leagues and markets. Basketball and baseball exist at the major league level in Canada only in Toronto. Vancouver already lost a basketball franchise (Grizzlies to Memphis) and Montreal a baseball franchise (Expos to DC). Apparently those major leagues sports weren't able to work in those markets.

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08-09-2010, 09:40 AM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
At least we know when it ain't gunna work. Nice try though, I sense a little desperation in your posts lately, everything alright?

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Old
08-09-2010, 09:41 AM
  #766
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It's become a mark of distinction that the team survives despite it all.
Given the current situation that seems to be a bit of a premature statement.

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08-09-2010, 09:47 AM
  #767
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Killion, you have a good imagination. Very silly, but still good.GHOST
Dog Days of Summer Ghost. Gotta have fun.

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08-09-2010, 09:54 AM
  #768
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How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
baseball and basketball can **** off. Gets in the way of HOCKEY.

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08-09-2010, 09:59 AM
  #769
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
Are you trying to seriously say that basketball (NBA ) and baseball (MLB) are slowly trying to grow the sport in Canada????

Sorry, but those leagues have given up on growing their sports in Canada. There will NEVER be more NBA teams nor MLB teams in Canada then there currently are. Why? Because even though there is grassroots support of the games with people playing and people watch them on TV, there are no places that will draw the attendance that a team needs to survive. Kind of like hockey in Phoenix.

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08-09-2010, 09:59 AM
  #770
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baseball and basketball can **** off. Gets in the way of HOCKEY.
We don't have the demographics for both.

NBA = not enough black population
MLB = not enough american population

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08-09-2010, 10:00 AM
  #771
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How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
Basketball is pretty big here (it was invented here after all) but the Vancouver market was not dealt with properly. The Grizzlies were popular there, but it didn't work out due to ownership.

That is why many Canadians on this forum do believe that if the right ownership were in Phoenix, they could turn it into a San Jose. There are unfortunately multiple issues currently that do exist. Its tough to fix...rather, a "reset" might be the best thing for the community. But that's where everyone has a different opinion...truly, I think everyone is right to a degree including your opinion and those who have the exact opposing view. I think the truth usually resides somewhere in the middle.

EDIT: Basketball is big with minorities...I am a minority, an can tell you, they mostly pretty much follow NBA as the #1 sport.

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08-09-2010, 10:09 AM
  #772
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How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
Basketball's doing a hell of a lot better in Toronto then hockey is in Phoenix despite the fact the Raptors have been a less successful franchise.

The Raptors have won 10 playoff games in their existence, the Coyotes have won 13. The Raptors averaged 17, 897(14th in the league) at home last season and missed the playoffs the Coyotes averaged 11, 989(last in the league) and finished with the 4th best record in the league.


Last edited by Wham City: 08-09-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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08-09-2010, 10:16 AM
  #773
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My favorite being the "Toledo Mud Hawks" (Corporal Klingers' team - MASH) which is community owned.
Toledo Mud Hens - what, are you trying for a Section 8 ?

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08-09-2010, 10:19 AM
  #774
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Toledo Mud Hens - what, are you trying for a Section 8 ?
Killinger?

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08-09-2010, 10:21 AM
  #775
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Originally Posted by roccerfeller View Post
Basketball is pretty big here (it was invented here after all) but the Vancouver market was not dealt with properly. The Grizzlies were popular there, but it didn't work out due to ownership.

That is why many Canadians on this forum do believe that if the right ownership were in Phoenix, they could turn it into a San Jose. There are unfortunately multiple issues currently that do exist. Its tough to fix...rather, a "reset" might be the best thing for the community. But that's where everyone has a different opinion...truly, I think everyone is right to a degree including your opinion and those who have the exact opposing view. I think the truth usually resides somewhere in the middle.

EDIT: Basketball is big with minorities...I am a minority, an can tell you, they mostly pretty much follow NBA as the #1 sport.
It was actually invented in America by a naturalized American born in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith

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