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What Would It Take For You to Give Up Lundqvist?

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Old
08-08-2010, 08:44 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post
Parise being a Devil for life is practically guaranteed.

He's Lou's top priority next offseason, and could very well be playing at a $6M cap hit for ten or more years.
For the Devils sake I hope your right, Lou is usually brilliant, but I cant help but think he may have been better served trying to lock Parise up this off season instead of throwing all this money at Kovy, especially with the CBA expiring this year and the probability of max contracts and terms being at issue.

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08-08-2010, 08:45 PM
  #52
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This is a catch 22. Name any contending team that needs a goalie and could win it if they got Lundqvist, then tell me what they'd have to give up to get him. Now tell me how they don't have to create all sorts of holes in their lineup to get him, and tell me how they weren't better off just getting a lesser goalie for free and keeping all those players. Any team that has the assets necessary won't give them up. The Rangers and Lundqvist are made for each other, which is good, because we will never get what he's worth from anyone else.

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08-08-2010, 08:47 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post
Parise being a Devil for life is practically guaranteed.
I can still hear the echoes of Edmonton fans saying the same thing about a certain someone.

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08-08-2010, 08:47 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Banks3rdLineCenter View Post
Not a good idea to cast blanket aspersions on the posters here. The opinions were split fairly evenly in regards to the Kovalchuk issue. Not everyone was dying to get him.
Yea , yea, yea. If in the neighborhood of 80/20 was a "fairly even split" then sure. I remember last summer prior to the Gaborik signing the consensus was "I hope Sather doesnt waste money on guys like Cammalleri or Gaborik this summer. We're better off just staying put so we can get Kovalchuk next summer". Now all of a sudden Gaborik is an elite 2 way player, better than Kovalchuk, and worthy of a "franchise" label, lol, while Kovalchuk is unwanted and overrated. Some people need to learn that were a guys plays has nothing to do with how talented he is.

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08-08-2010, 08:49 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
For the Devils sake I hope your right, Lou is usually brilliant, but I cant help but think he may have been better served trying to lock Parise up this off season instead of throwing all this money at Kovy, especially with the CBA expiring this year and the probability of max contracts and terms being at issue.
Next year, Parise will be an RFA and Arnott and Langenbrunner are UFA's, bringing $7.3M off the books which has Zach's name all over it.

It's not a surprise that Lou is waiting out the length of Zach's deal to resign him, and it actually makes a lot of sense for him to wait when taking the current cap situation into consideration.

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Originally Posted by ogie View Post
I can still hear the echoes of Edmonton fans saying the same thing about a certain someone.

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08-08-2010, 09:00 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post
Next year, Parise will be an RFA and Arnott and Langenbrunner are UFA's, bringing $7.3M off the books which has Zach's name all over it.

It's not a surprise that Lou is waiting out the length of Zach's deal to resign him, and it actually makes a lot of sense for him to wait when taking the current cap situation into consideration.
Ah, I forgot Parise would be an RFA, with him being restricted it lessens the worry of someone stepping in with Lou's hands tied, but I still think it would be smart to sign Parise to that long deal just incase come next year we see a max on contract lengths to address this cap issue (especially if the Arbitrator favors for NJ which most see as a precursor to Sather offering Staal a 20yr/100 million frontloaded contract, lol)

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08-08-2010, 09:07 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
Ah, I forgot Parise would be an RFA, with him being restricted it lessens the worry of someone stepping in with Lou's hands tied, but I still think it would be smart to sign Parise to that long deal just incase come next year we see a max on contract lengths to address this cap issue (especially if the Arbitrator favors for NJ which most see as a precursor to Sather offering Staal a 20yr/100 million frontloaded contract, lol)


Yeah, I mean, there was pros and cons to the idea of Lou locking up Parise both this year and next. But with the improvements on defense and needed to be (and were) made and locking up Kovalchuk long term, it just seemed more feasible to put it on the back burner for now. Also, I'd say that it's likely that Lams will offer Zach a legitimate ten-plus year deal, and like I said before, there's not a significant worry of Lou's hands being tied if only because Arnott and Langenbrunner come off the books next season which will probably see some cash left over after Parise's signed.

There's also a far outside shot that Parise could very well take a small hometown discount, although I don't really see that happening, nor does it need to happen.


Last edited by PacManNJD: 08-08-2010 at 09:21 PM.
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08-08-2010, 09:09 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickick71 View Post
Yea , yea, yea. If in the neighborhood of 80/20 was a "fairly even split" then sure. I remember last summer prior to the Gaborik signing the consensus was "I hope Sather doesnt waste money on guys like Cammalleri or Gaborik this summer. We're better off just staying put so we can get Kovalchuk next summer". Now all of a sudden Gaborik is an elite 2 way player, better than Kovalchuk, and worthy of a "franchise" label, lol, while Kovalchuk is unwanted and overrated. Some people need to learn that were a guys plays has nothing to do with how talented he is.
I think your off base here a little and taking peoples criticisms the wrong way. I for one am not a fan of kovalchuck for many reasons, but I admit hes a phenominal talent and an asset to any team. What your not considering is need, the Devils have never needed a kovalchuk type to be successful, so while it may sound like I'm bashing the devils by saying he's not worth it, I'm really only bashing Kovy. Would I take him on my team, of course, he'd make us more likely to become a playoff team, but i dont think he makes a team a cup contender an thats why i think hes a waste for the devils, you could do just as well without him and maybe ven better if that 6 mill was spent on more "devils" type players

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08-08-2010, 09:12 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post


Yeah, I mean, there was pros and cons to the idea of Lou locking up Parise both this year and next. But with the improvements on defense and needed to be (and were) made and locking up Kovalchuk long term, it just seemed more feasible to but it on the back burner for now. Also, I'd say that it's likely that Lams will offer Zach a legitimate ten-plus year deal, and like I said before, there's not a significant worry of Lou's hands being tied if only because Arnott and Langenbrunner come off the books next season which will probably see some cash left over after Parise's signed.

There's also a far outside shot that Parise could very well take a small hometown discount, although I don't really see that happening, nor does it need to happen.
Very true, and I agree with you about Parise's contract, i could definately see it being a 10yr -65 million deal without all the minimum yrs at the end, love the kid, and for completely selfish reasons I hope he gives us a reason to coin the term "pulling a gomez" one day

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08-08-2010, 09:19 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I think your off base here a little and taking peoples criticisms the wrong way. I for one am not a fan of kovalchuck for many reasons, but I admit hes a phenominal talent and an asset to any team. What your not considering is need, the Devils have never needed a kovalchuk type to be successful, so while it may sound like I'm bashing the devils by saying he's not worth it, I'm really only bashing Kovy. Would I take him on my team, of course, he'd make us more likely to become a playoff team, but i dont think he makes a team a cup contender an thats why i think hes a waste for the devils, you could do just as well without him and maybe ven better if that 6 mill was spent on more "devils" type players
Well, I wouldn't call him a waste for the Devils.

He's a dangerous goal scorer and has the statistics to prove it. Now, admittedly, he was certainly a luxury and not a need for the Devils, but when an organization seems to be signaling a change in it's routine game plan (in the Devils' case, from defense first to up-tempo offense), and a move such as acquiring a generational talent in Ilya Kovalchuk who could potentially net 50 goals in a season to help better said offense can be accomplished (if it can be done with mortgaging the future of the franchise), then, well... Why not?

Kovalchuk has certainly proved his worth and place in a Devils jersey in his short stint here, and if he has a full season with the team and a chance to truly gel and blend in with his linemates (especially under a coach like John MacLean), then we could be potentially (Homer Alert! ) be looking at one of the top offenses in the game with the like's of Ilya Kovalchuk, Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, Patrik Elias, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
Very true, and I agree with you about Parise's contract, i could definately see it being a 10yr -65 million deal without all the minimum yrs at the end, love the kid, and for completely selfish reasons I hope he gives us a reason to coin the term "pulling a gomez" one day



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08-08-2010, 09:19 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It speeds along the process. How you cant see that is beyond me.

And if you think the Rangers are operating the same way, you're even more lost on the subject.

How exactly did the Flyers "stay competitive" during their 22-win 2006-2007 season where they were the worst team in the league?
You don't have guys like Sami Kapanen, Alexei Zhitnik, Mike York, Petr Nedved, etc. if you're not trying to stay competitive. You'd just let the kids play and go. The roster they fielded that year was an attempt to make a cup run with a lot of those older guys mixed with Richards, Carter etc. and it failed miserably.

Don't make it sound like the Flyers plan was "hey let's have a bad year"

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08-08-2010, 09:22 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post
Once Marty hangs it up, Parise and Kovalchuk will be the franchise players.
I think you missed the point, because by your definition every franchises best player or two are franchise players.

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08-08-2010, 09:24 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
No, no, no.

If Kovalchuk isnt a "franchise player," than Gaborik certainly is not. Not only is Gaborik's responsibility in his own zone a bit overrated in my opinion, but durability should play into the equation too.
the only thing preventing Gaborik from being a franchise player is his health.

He's a better player than Kovalchuk, not just because he wears a Rangers sweater but because when he has an off game he's not the type of player that's turning the puck over left and right. He's responsible in his own zone every game. He would be killing penalties if durability wasn't a concern.

Maybe Kovalchuk is a better goalscorer, but whoopdie do, goals aren't everything especially when the difference in stats per game is a handful.

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08-08-2010, 09:25 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickick71 View Post
Oh gosh. "LOL @Kovalchuk being a franchise player". I guess some are quick to forget about the 6,000 "move heaven and earth to sign/acquire Kovalchuk" threads. But I guess grapes easily go sour when he signs with a rival team. Afterall its easier to accept not getting something if "we never wanted it anyway" lol. Anyways, we should just save the franchise tag for players that actually deserve it, like Marc Staal, that is if half of the NYR posters here didnt already label him a "franchise" defenseman.

Some of you are just silly. I mean, I remember seeing about 4 months of "steer clear of the glassman" and "hell no to Gaborik", not more than a year and a half ago. But once he's NYR property, opinions change quick. I just wish people could be more consistent with their opinions.
I never wanted us to get Kovalchuk, so don't generalize.

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08-08-2010, 09:26 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
I think you missed the point, because by your definition every franchises best player or two are franchise players.


No, I didn't. Parise and Kovalchuk will be the two faces of the franchise who will most likely (And I use that phrase because Parise isn't signed... Yet.) retire as Devils. The fact that they are the two best players is icing.

Brodeur will be the franchise player until he's done.

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08-08-2010, 09:28 PM
  #66
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If Kovalchuk was a franchise player, Atlanta would've won a playoff game when he was there.

Franchise players carry their team, they make players around them better. They don't fold under pressure. They don't let pests like Sean Avery get under their skin everytime they meet.

Kovalchuk is probably a top 5 forward, a top 10 or 15 player, but he's no franchise player. Those only come so often.

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08-08-2010, 09:31 PM
  #67
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I firmly believe we have the best goalie in the league. I think the product in front of his has never been good enough to give him a chance to really shine though. I wouldn't trade Lundqvist for any player. Not Ovechkin, not Crosby, not Kovalchuk.

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08-08-2010, 09:32 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post
Well, I wouldn't call him a waste for the Devils.

He's a dangerous goal scorer and has the statistics to prove it. Now, admittedly, he was certainly a luxury and not a need for the Devils, but when an organization seems to be signaling a change in it's routine game plan (in the Devils' case, from defense first to up-tempo offense), and a move such as acquiring a generational talent in Ilya Kovalchuk who could potentially net 50 goals in a season to help better said offense can be accomplished (if it can be done with mortgaging the future of the franchise), then, well... Why not?
I guess as a longtime Ranger fan I'm finding it harder to accept the Devils are changing their game plan than even Devils fans are, but I guess with Marty eventually retiring it has to done!

And your right it was definately an exaggeration calling him a waste to the Devils, a top 5 in the league goalscorer is never a waste

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08-08-2010, 09:37 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
If Kovalchuk was a franchise player, Atlanta would've won a playoff game when he was there.

Franchise players carry their team, they make players around them better. They don't fold under pressure. They don't let pests like Sean Avery get under their skin everytime they meet.

Kovalchuk is probably a top 5 forward, a top 10 or 15 player, but he's no franchise player. Those only come so often.
I think the breakdown in communication here is peoples assesment of what a franchise player means. In my opinion a franchise player is the best player on a given team. The standard your using to define franchise player in my opinion more or less defines a generational talent...

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08-08-2010, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
the only thing preventing Gaborik from being a franchise player is his health.

He's a better player than Kovalchuk, not just because he wears a Rangers sweater but because when he has an off game he's not the type of player that's turning the puck over left and right. He's responsible in his own zone every game. He would be killing penalties if durability wasn't a concern.

Maybe Kovalchuk is a better goalscorer, but whoopdie do, goals aren't everything especially when the difference in stats per game is a handful.
Who's to say that Kovy won't mature into that perfect franchise player you speak of? And it's hardly fair to bring up playoff experience as dirt on Kovalchuk, especially considering he was stuck on an awful team for nearly a decade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I guess as a longtime Ranger fan I'm finding it harder to accept the Devils are changing their game plan than even Devils fans are, but I guess with Marty eventually retiring it has to done!

And your right it was definately an exaggeration calling him a waste to the Devils, a top 5 in the league goalscorer is never a waste
Defense will always be a priority in New Jersey, regardless of how potent the offense is, and the philosophy has been set in stone by Lou Lamoriello to develop every aspect of the franchise instead of having a certain role carry the team. However, it has come to pass that the defense isn't as good as it once was, and while effective, the names of Scott Stevens, Ken Daneyko, and Scott Neidermayer have never been adequately replaced since Scotty Nieds left in 2004. Granted, Lou went out an got us Anton Volchenkov (who's easily the closest thing we've had to Stevens) and Henrik Tallinder, but still, it's just not the same.

Brodeur, while still a phenomenal talent and easily one of the better netminders in the NHL, isn't what he once was, and has certainly slowed down over the years.

This can mean only one thing: The Devils need to start putting more pucks in the net. And hopefully, with this new-look New Jersey team, that will become a reality.

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08-08-2010, 09:43 PM
  #71
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lundqvist is definately a top 5 goalie in the nhl but you guys are overating him way too much. you seem to forget that the hawks and flyers both have average goalies that took their team to the scf. i would def trade malkin for henke in a heartbeat. you dont find an elite forward like malkin everyday. and the person that lol at kovalchuk at being a franchise player than im lol at gaborik being labeled a franchise player as well. look at their carreer stats between both of them then well see who's lol. give him a full season with the devils then we can comment. we certainly gave gaborik a full year with the rangers and surprisenly wasnt hurt and had an excellent season.

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08-08-2010, 09:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by DevilInDisguise View Post
lundqvist is definately a top 5 goalie in the nhl but you guys are overating him way too much. you seem to forget that the hawks and flyers both have average goalies that took their team to the scf. i would def trade malkin for henke in a heartbeat. you dont find an elite forward like malkin everyday. and the person that lol at kovalchuk at being a franchise player than im lol at gaborik being labeled a franchise player as well. look at their carreer stats between both of them then well see who's lol. give him a full season with the devils then we can comment. we certainly gave gaborik a full year with the rangers and surprisenly wasnt hurt and had an excellent season.
I hope this is sarcasm.

Look, I hate to say it, but Lundqvist is great. You don't compare him to the goaltenders of teams who were carried by the guys playing in front of them.

Niemi and Leighton were okay in the Finals, and even that's a stretch.

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08-08-2010, 09:57 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacmanghostx View Post
I hope this is sarcasm.

Look, I hate to say it, but Lundqvist is great. You don't compare him to the goaltenders of teams who were carried by the guys playing in front of them.

Niemi and Leighton were okay in the Finals, and even that's a stretch.
Completely agree with this statement, and while both teams proved that you can get to the finals with a stacked roster and average goalie, I think we will all see that the devils formula with broduer, the one the rangers are trying to duplicate with Hank, is a more sustainable method for consistency. The only reason the flyers and Hawks were in the finals is because the rosters are SOOOO stacked, but as were seeing with Chicago's partial dissmantling, and rumors of Jeff Carter even being considered to be moved in Philly, you cant keep 6-7 guys on the roster that are going to require a payday. Locking up a franchise goalie goes a long way toward building a contender that will require less salary forced turnover.

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08-08-2010, 09:58 PM
  #74
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def not sarcasm. all u need is a hot goaltender in the playoffs. boucher was a beast for the flyers against us. leighton carried that load until he was gassed by a superior hawks team. we certainly did fine with clemensen also. build a good team in front of a goalie and that team can excel. the new nhl is built that way. i dont think the rangers are a playoff team with their current roster.. if the rangers got malkin and paired him with gaborik they can def do some damage. that would be a strong first line.. build a strong defense around an average goalie(niemi type) and the rangers possiblity become better than what they r now.

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08-08-2010, 09:59 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by sickick71 View Post
Yea , yea, yea. If in the neighborhood of 80/20 was a "fairly even split" then sure. I remember last summer prior to the Gaborik signing the consensus was "I hope Sather doesnt waste money on guys like Cammalleri or Gaborik this summer. We're better off just staying put so we can get Kovalchuk next summer". Now all of a sudden Gaborik is an elite 2 way player, better than Kovalchuk, and worthy of a "franchise" label, lol, while Kovalchuk is unwanted and overrated. Some people need to learn that were a guys plays has nothing to do with how talented he is.
All you have done in this thread so far is build straw man after straw man. Since you've displayed that you have little to no understanding of the opinions expressed on this board regarding Kovalchuk there really is no purpose in continuing to discuss this with you.

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