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BUF/NYI/TOR (Kaberle to Buffalo, Pominville to NYI)

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Old
08-08-2010, 08:50 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
I am a Buffalo fan and agree with your assesment. Here is what a majority of the Buffalo fan base I know think of Pomminville (note: all of my buds and me are season ticket holders or go to many home games)

Pomminville is a 60 - 65+ point player (depending on his linemates, specifically his center)
His best season came as Briere's RW.
Pomminville is a fantastic 2 way player and spends a fair amount of time on special teams, both the power play (which isn't saying much given Buffalo's PP woes of late) and the penalty kill squad (where he actually excels)
Many of us feel he is over paid. 4.5 million is what many of the fans I know and myself feel is where he should be.
We also feel he is not a line 1 RWer, but he is a top of the line RWer for line 2.

Thats my take on Pommers. But he is a very valuable player none the less.
i wholeheartedly agree, on a playoff team he'd be a quality player because as I said there are no holes in his game. at 4M youd have teams falling all over themselves to grab Pominville, because he's able to play whatever role you need him to and play it well. But on a team like the Isles he'd just be a better version of Trent Hunter, and as much as I love Trent, if he made 3M instead of 2M as he does, Id not want him either.....Pominville is an unnecessary luxury for our team that represents money better spent elsewhere..... if im the Kings looking to take the next step Id be all over Pominville but for us we couldnt use him right. even though he'd be a great example

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08-08-2010, 09:00 PM
  #52
Armond White
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Only on HF can you take a top 6 27-year-old winger, trade him to a terrible team, place him on the top line, give him more ice time, and predict that he regresses to his 57-game rookie season goal total.

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08-08-2010, 09:03 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
Kaberle is good, but your post leaves out a great deal of information to truly formulate a value, or worth of a straight up trade.

Pomminville is younger than Kaberle
Pomminville is not an 18-20 goal scorer as you suggest. He is a 25 goal scorer. A couple of seasons under 25, and only 1 full season at 20.
Pomminville's contract is expensive, but your getting one of the top 12 to 15 two way players in the game.
Pomminville's contract is for 4 more seasons, Kaberle is for 1.

Money, length of contract, expected role to play within line up, players goal and points track record and needs of the teams involved all play a role.
In this case, Kaberle for Pomminville straight up would be of fair value in my opinion based on the needs of each team.

This could just as easily be applied to the Islanders as well, and in the case of Hunter, the Islanders will have to add more than a 2nd round draft pick.
you misunderstand my point, as a player Pominville is worth more than Hunter. theres no question he is, but on our team hes worth no more than Hunter, here's why: on our team Hunter is a symbol. a playing example of hard work and commitment, he's not expected to lead us to the promised land or to take us anywhere, his job basically is to be an example for the kids.....The guys who are expected to lead us. If we got Pominville he would be the new Trent Hunter, The guy that the coaching staff would point to as how a professional plays Hockey. so as such in our situation, Pominville is underutilized, would we win a few more games? certainly we would but not enough to equal the assets expended to acquire and then pay him.

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08-08-2010, 09:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
you misunderstand my point, as a player Pominville is worth more than Hunter. theres no question he is, but on our team hes worth no more than Hunter, here's why: on our team Hunter is a symbol. a playing example of hard work and commitment, he's not expected to lead us to the promised land or to take us anywhere, his job basically is to be an example for the kids.....The guys who are expected to lead us. If we got Pominville he would be the new Trent Hunter, The guy that the coaching staff would point to as how a professional plays Hockey. so as such in our situation, Pominville is underutilized, would we win a few more games? certainly we would but not enough to equal the assets expended to acquire and then pay him.
No Isles Guy, I got your point, but I carelessly didn't read your entire post, I thought it was on Kabs and only after I saw it was on the Islanders did I edit to include that final line.
My bad man, sorry.

Woops, and another edit here. Buffalo doesn't need Kaberle, they need a rebuild 1st scoring line.
Unfornately, our GM is Darcy Regier.

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08-08-2010, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
Only on HF can you take a top 6 27-year-old winger, trade him to a terrible team, place him on the top line, give him more ice time, and predict that he regresses to his 57-game rookie season goal total.
but players do not play in a vacuum, players play on a team, they play in an environment. I wouldnt play Pomi on the top line, Moulson has chemistry with Tavares and Okposo is our top RW. What do you see Pominville doing with Schremp our probable 2nd line center? Thats why I see a regression.

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08-08-2010, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by static80 View Post
No Isles Guy, I got your point, but I carelessly didn't read your entire post, I thought it was on Kabs and only after I saw it was on the Islanders did I edit to include that final line.
My bad man, sorry.
no problem i admit sometimes i think much clearer than I type, I usually need to go back and clarify things to make is easier for those who expect literacy.

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08-08-2010, 09:26 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
no problem i admit sometimes i think much clearer than I type, I usually need to go back and clarify things to make is easier for those who expect literacy.
Thanks,

and as for Pomminville, well, actually, as for the Sabres all together, its the same story as the late 90's, or close to it. Ride the star goalie and keep your fingers crossed.

I have to wonder if some of my fellow Buffalo fans understand that the Drury/Briere era here in Buffalo, although short, was not so much on Regier bringing them in as it was the chemistry that was formulated between guys like Hecht, Afinagenov, a young Pommers, Vanek and Stafford as well the rest of the role playing guys on the roster.

Filling the void on Drury and Briere is a tough nut to crack for us up here.
I don't know, maybe its just me, but I want an overhaul of the 1st scoring line. I'll worry about replacing Connolly if its necessary at the end of this season. (i.e. if he can stay healthy again).

I have trade in mind, but, since I just signed up, I can't post trades yet
But I'll run it by you, since you appear to have some decent hockey sense.
Not sure if your aware, but our GM Regier has been collecting NHL ready d men.
He dumps Kennedy, but I believe that was on the 2 way deal stipulation. I believe Regier wanted to stick him in Portland.
Anyways, tell me what you think on this:

I've thought on this a little. Here is what I would like to see happen.

Vanek and Sekera for Bobby Ryan (with a 3 year extension at 5 mil per season)
Buffalo sheds Salary by just over 3 million.
Anaheim would have one hell of a line in Vanek-Getzlaf-Perry, and add a young PMD.

Montador and Roy for Peter Mueller (5 year contract at 3.5 to 4 mil per season) and John-Michael Liles.
Liles is a good friend of Millers, Mueller is an up and coming Center.
Helps the AV clear some of the D depth and gives them a decent center with a RWer with potential, plus more experience upfront.

Butler and Stafford for Ryane Clowe

Sign Ennis to an additional 3 year extension at 4 mil per season

My new number 1 line.
Ennis-Mueller-Ryan
A young, talented, scoring line.

My new number 2 line.
Clowe-Connolly-Pomminville
Size added where it is needed, address the line 2 center position after the season.

My new defensive pairings.
Myers-Leopold
Rivet-Liles
Weber-Morrisonn

Any tweaking and or flat out couldn't happens here in your opinion?

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08-08-2010, 09:38 PM
  #58
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looks good to me from a leafs POV... and i could see the sabres potentially doing it. Other side to me is iffy...

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08-09-2010, 12:04 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
Kaberle is good, but your post leaves out a great deal of information to truly formulate a value, or worth of a straight up trade.

Pomminville is younger than Kaberle
Pomminville is not an 18-20 goal scorer as you suggest. He is a 25 goal scorer. A couple of seasons under 25, and only 1 full season at 20.
Pomminville's contract is expensive, but your getting one of the top 12 to 15 two way players in the game.
Pomminville's contract is for 4 more seasons, Kaberle is for 1.

Money, length of contract, expected role to play within line up, players goal and points track record and needs of the teams involved all play a role.
In this case, Kaberle for Pomminville straight up would be of fair value in my opinion based on the needs of each team.

This could just as easily be applied to the Islanders as well, and in the case of Hunter, the Islanders will have to add more than a 2nd round draft pick.
As said earlier, Kabs resigning if traded to Buffalo isn't certain, then again, everything we discuss here is hypothetical anyway. So, with that in mind...

Hypothetically, if Kaberle extended (Sabres set up deal before the trade) another 3 years (including this year, makes it a 4 year deal) for around $5 mil per (maybe Sabres frontload to lower cap hit from 5 mil?), what would Buffalo add to make the deal work? Based on 1 year of Kabs is fair value for Pomminville, 4 years of Kabs the Sabres would have to add, no?

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08-09-2010, 12:18 AM
  #60
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NYI make out like Bandits.

They give up Trent Hunter, Blake Kessel, 2nd

For Pominville

Basically left over scraps for a legit 70 point player ... and I'm a leaf fan ... just wow

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08-09-2010, 12:36 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by crazyaces View Post
NYI make out like Bandits.

They give up Trent Hunter, Blake Kessel, 2nd

For Pominville

Basically left over scraps for a legit 70 point player ... and I'm a leaf fan ... just wow
but he wouldnt be a 70 point player here thats the point youre missing he'd be at best a 50-55 point player at best probably less on our 2nd line. and at 5.3M for 4 years, it isnt worth it, and then you have to consider the assets given up

if you think thats a great deal give up Kaberle for him

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08-09-2010, 12:46 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by static80 View Post
Thanks,

and as for Pomminville, well, actually, as for the Sabres all together, its the same story as the late 90's, or close to it. Ride the star goalie and keep your fingers crossed.

I have to wonder if some of my fellow Buffalo fans understand that the Drury/Briere era here in Buffalo, although short, was not so much on Regier bringing them in as it was the chemistry that was formulated between guys like Hecht, Afinagenov, a young Pommers, Vanek and Stafford as well the rest of the role playing guys on the roster.

Filling the void on Drury and Briere is a tough nut to crack for us up here.
I don't know, maybe its just me, but I want an overhaul of the 1st scoring line. I'll worry about replacing Connolly if its necessary at the end of this season. (i.e. if he can stay healthy again).

I have trade in mind, but, since I just signed up, I can't post trades yet
But I'll run it by you, since you appear to have some decent hockey sense.
Not sure if your aware, but our GM Regier has been collecting NHL ready d men.
He dumps Kennedy, but I believe that was on the 2 way deal stipulation. I believe Regier wanted to stick him in Portland.
Anyways, tell me what you think on this:

I've thought on this a little. Here is what I would like to see happen.

Vanek and Sekera for Bobby Ryan (with a 3 year extension at 5 mil per season)
Buffalo sheds Salary by just over 3 million.
Anaheim would have one hell of a line in Vanek-Getzlaf-Perry, and add a young PMD.

Montador and Roy for Peter Mueller (5 year contract at 3.5 to 4 mil per season) and John-Michael Liles.
Liles is a good friend of Millers, Mueller is an up and coming Center.
Helps the AV clear some of the D depth and gives them a decent center with a RWer with potential, plus more experience upfront
.

Butler and Stafford for Ryane Clowe

Sign Ennis to an additional 3 year extension at 4 mil per season

My new number 1 line.
Ennis-Mueller-Ryan
A young, talented, scoring line.

My new number 2 line.
Clowe-Connolly-Pomminville
Size added where it is needed, address the line 2 center position after the season.

My new defensive pairings.
Myers-Leopold
Rivet-Liles
Weber-Morrisonn

Any tweaking and or flat out couldn't happens here in your opinion?
Awful for the Avs. Not so much in value, but you didn't take the Avs' needs into account at all. How would adding Mondator and losing Liles clear D space? Why would the Avs need another center?

First, a center is the LAST thing the Avs need. Stastny, Duchene, O'Reilly... Those are our top 3 centers... there'd be no place for Roy. Roy on the 3rd line would be vastly under-utilizing him, while stopping O'Reilly's development dead in it's tracks by putting him on the 4th line. Avs won't give Roy Duchene's spot, as he is the new face of the franchise and has crazy amounts of potential. Stastny has 1st line pretty much anchored down, and even with your best argument, you could only put Roy and Stastny as equals (I think Stastny is better, but that's my personal opinion).

Next, Mueller is no longer a center. I know he was drafted as such but has been playing wing more than anything. Wing (especially left wing) is where we need guys the most. Mueller, although it was only 15 games, showed great promise playing LW for us. 20 points, doing all the little things, amazing chemistry with Duchene, and last but not least, totally re-energizing our PP (and providing that blast from the point we need so desperately). I know his numbers vs. Roy's would make a swap of the two a steal for the Avs, but the kid's got a lot of potential and could really be a force in the league if he applies himself. It's not a sure thing, but it's worth the gamble for the Avs to keep him.

Which leads me to my next point, which is that the other part of that new beast of a powerplay we had at the end of the season was Johnny Liles. The chemistry he and Mueller had at the point really got the puck moving around the zone on the PP. Now, had you wanted Liles last year, I'd have given him to you for 200 level Sabres tickets (which are nice, only NHL game I've been to was in 200 level Avs Sabres this past year) for a game. However, the chemistry he had with Mueller combined with the fact that he really upped his play the last half of the season, it'll take more than Montador to get him now. I know I'm more than likely undervaluing Montador here, as I don't know him enough to know his intangibles, but he's just not what the Avs need on D. We need a young, explosive true top 2 D guy who can lay people out, hold his own in his own end. Foote will be retiring probably next year, which would clear room for our wealth of D prospects to fill in spots 3-6 (and 7) on our blue line. Unless we're getting a game changing guy D guy (which we have the forward prospects to offer for), I don't see the Avs making a trade for a D man.

Avs are really set on forwards save for a top LW that doesn't make ridiculous money (will need space in the next 1-3 years to resign key players, especially Duchene and Anderson). As said before, only a top D guy would really improve us, anything else would either be a lateral move or make them worse. Only D guy the Sabres have that the Avs would really be interested in is Myers, and I'm guessing there's a 99% chance the Sabres won't give him up for anything less than a massive overpayment.

Sorry if this all seems harsh, I'm not trying to be. I know you're new here (I am too), but you've got to remember to take the other team's needs into account too.

With that in mind, I'll say I don't know the Sabres' needs all that well either, but based on your wanting a center and puck moving D man, I think the Avs could make a fair deal for Myers. I know in real life it'd take a massive overpayment to get him (just as it'd take a massive overpayment to get Duchene from the Avs), but what would Sabres' fans consider "fair" from the Avs for your Calder winner?

I'll save you all the time and say that a deal involving Duchene for Myers would probably be it. Fair value wise, that is. Not sure it really makes much sense all things considered, but we're talking value and value alone here. So, since I already said Duchene, can anyone come up with an offer for Myers not involving him? If not, that's completely understandable. Anyway, Avs have a glut of centers with potential (with Stastny being proven as well), many PMD with potential and a deep defensive prospect pool (and not too shabby forward prospect pool).

Edit: One more reason for the Avs to not get Roy... it'd just look awful to have another Avs jersey with "Roy" on the back of it that doesn't also have "33". I don't care how you pronounce it, it would just look wrong lol

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08-09-2010, 12:47 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
Thanks,

and as for Pomminville, well, actually, as for the Sabres all together, its the same story as the late 90's, or close to it. Ride the star goalie and keep your fingers crossed.

I have to wonder if some of my fellow Buffalo fans understand that the Drury/Briere era here in Buffalo, although short, was not so much on Regier bringing them in as it was the chemistry that was formulated between guys like Hecht, Afinagenov, a young Pommers, Vanek and Stafford as well the rest of the role playing guys on the roster.

Filling the void on Drury and Briere is a tough nut to crack for us up here.
I don't know, maybe its just me, but I want an overhaul of the 1st scoring line. I'll worry about replacing Connolly if its necessary at the end of this season. (i.e. if he can stay healthy again).

I have trade in mind, but, since I just signed up, I can't post trades yet
But I'll run it by you, since you appear to have some decent hockey sense.
Not sure if your aware, but our GM Regier has been collecting NHL ready d men.
He dumps Kennedy, but I believe that was on the 2 way deal stipulation. I believe Regier wanted to stick him in Portland.
Anyways, tell me what you think on this:

I've thought on this a little. Here is what I would like to see happen.

Vanek and Sekera for Bobby Ryan (with a 3 year extension at 5 mil per season)
Buffalo sheds Salary by just over 3 million.
Anaheim would have one hell of a line in Vanek-Getzlaf-Perry, and add a young PMD.

Montador and Roy for Peter Mueller (5 year contract at 3.5 to 4 mil per season) and John-Michael Liles.
Liles is a good friend of Millers, Mueller is an up and coming Center.
Helps the AV clear some of the D depth and gives them a decent center with a RWer with potential, plus more experience upfront.

Butler and Stafford for Ryane Clowe

Sign Ennis to an additional 3 year extension at 4 mil per season

My new number 1 line.
Ennis-Mueller-Ryan
A young, talented, scoring line.

My new number 2 line.
Clowe-Connolly-Pomminville
Size added where it is needed, address the line 2 center position after the season.

My new defensive pairings.
Myers-Leopold
Rivet-Liles
Weber-Morrisonn

Any tweaking and or flat out couldn't happens here in your opinion?
couldnt see the ducks doing deal number 1 because even though Vanek would be rejuvenated with Getzlaf, The age factor would command greater value going to the Ducks, I think any deal involving Ryan would have the Ducks asking for Myers, Which is a non starter from a Sabres point of view. I could see deal number two because they are looking to open up ice time for Couture, and Butler might have some appeal to them

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08-09-2010, 12:57 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by static80 View Post
Pomminville is a 60 - 65+ point player (depending on his linemates, specifically his center)
His best season came as Briere's RW.
That's wrong, his best season was after Brier left, playing with Hecht and whoever they used that year on that line (Macarthur, Paille, Gaustad).
His numbers would have been better last year if Hecht didn't started at the 3rd line.

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08-09-2010, 01:00 AM
  #65
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couldnt see the ducks doing deal number 1 because even though Vanek would be rejuvenated with Getzlaf, The age factor would command greater value going to the Ducks, I think any deal involving Ryan would have the Ducks asking for Myers, Which is a non starter from a Sabres point of view. I could see deal number two because they are looking to open up ice time for Couture, and Butler might have some appeal to them
Confused me with that one (thinking "Couture isn't on the Avs!" lol). I think you meant to say deal number 3.

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08-09-2010, 01:15 AM
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Confused me with that one (thinking "Couture isn't on the Avs!" lol). I think you meant to say deal number 3.
I didnt address the avs deal because the post above mine went into excellent detail why Mueller is a no go for the Avs, They think they stole him from the Coyotes, and they probably did, He was reborn in Denver. The Clowe deal would depend on what they think of Butler as they are looking for defensive help

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08-09-2010, 01:17 AM
  #67
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That's wrong, his best season was after Brier left, playing with Hecht and whoever they used that year on that line (Macarthur, Paille, Gaustad).
His numbers would have been better last year if Hecht didn't started at the 3rd line.
Actually, you are wrong. He may have potted more overall stats the following season, but it was insignificant compared to the accomplishments he achieved as Briere's RW.
I didn't post it and say that was the best season for his stats, I posted it as in overall contribution, including, but not limited to his clutch ability combined with his special teams play, most often noted, his PK time.
But lets not forget the goals he potted in the playoffs in 05-06 and the chemistry between Briere, Hecht and Pomminville.

Its opinion, you have yours, I have mine, but I would clearly look at his past 3 seasons as not nearly as significant as the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons.

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08-09-2010, 01:38 AM
  #68
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Its opinion, you have yours, I have mine, but I would clearly look at his past 3 seasons as not nearly as significant as the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons.
Of course the team was overall better in 05-06 and 06-07.
But 07-08 he showed that he can carry the team without an all star center like Briere and even without Hecht who missed some games at the end of that season.
Looking just at Poms IMHO it's more of an achievement than beeing one of many good players on a great team, even when they missed the playoffs.

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08-09-2010, 02:31 AM
  #69
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I didnt address the avs deal because the post above mine went into excellent detail why Mueller is a no go for the Avs, They think they stole him from the Coyotes, and they probably did, He was reborn in Denver. The Clowe deal would depend on what they think of Butler as they are looking for defensive help
Haha wow, I'm flattered

Yeah, you're right on the Clowe deal presented above. We'd need to consult a Sharks fan or two to get a general idea on whether it'd be good for them or not. Frankly, I know more about Clowe than I do Butler though. For living as close as I do to Buffalo, I really don't know much about their up and comers. Probably cause the Leafs are my second team and I hear enough about the Sabres without researching them in my own time

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08-09-2010, 07:59 AM
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Wow quite a thread here.

Just an aside:
I doubt that the great majority of GMs in this league would trade fairly to take on Pominville's contract.

Whatever his pros and cons are, the money he's getting is pretty much what you pay a fairly consistant 80-90 point scorer, something he isn't (yet).

He's very valuable for Buffalo and should remain so for the duration of his contract. I know the OP isn't a Buffalo fan looking to remove the contract, so the point is somewhat null and void, but if Buffalo ever does find itself looking to move him, it'd likely be a difficult thing to do if truly expecting some real quality in return.

You never know, there may be a GM out there who can be roused, but Jason's contract is some pretty sweet dought that appears to have Buffalo handcuffed on that front.

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08-09-2010, 08:26 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Wow quite a thread here.

Just an aside:
I doubt that the great majority of GMs in this league would trade fairly to take on Pominville's contract.

Whatever his pros and cons are, the money he's getting is pretty much what you pay a fairly consistant 80-90 point scorer, something he isn't (yet).
Hang on a sec... who are these consistent 80-90 point players you speak of?

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08-09-2010, 09:14 AM
  #72
grabo84
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Hang on a sec... who are these consistent 80-90 point players you speak of?
5.3 is a bargain for an 80-90 point scorer, and usually requires a whopping term to make it happen. There's a few exceptions, but still.

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08-09-2010, 11:43 AM
  #73
GrierIsGod123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Wow quite a thread here.

Just an aside:
I doubt that the great majority of GMs in this league would trade fairly to take on Pominville's contract.

Whatever his pros and cons are, the money he's getting is pretty much what you pay a fairly consistant 80-90 point scorer, something he isn't (yet).

He's very valuable for Buffalo and should remain so for the duration of his contract. I know the OP isn't a Buffalo fan looking to remove the contract, so the point is somewhat null and void, but if Buffalo ever does find itself looking to move him, it'd likely be a difficult thing to do if truly expecting some real quality in return.

You never know, there may be a GM out there who can be roused, but Jason's contract is some pretty sweet dought that appears to have Buffalo handcuffed on that front.
WRONG, show some examples smart guy. Oh, and Pominville does have an 80 point season under his belt, in which he subsequently signed his current contract.

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Old
08-09-2010, 11:53 AM
  #74
static80
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Originally Posted by Reacher Gilt View Post
Of course the team was overall better in 05-06 and 06-07.
But 07-08 he showed that he can carry the team without an all star center like Briere and even without Hecht who missed some games at the end of that season.
Looking just at Poms IMHO it's more of an achievement than beeing one of many good players on a great team, even when they missed the playoffs.
I can see your point on this, and concede, his numbers after the D/B era have remained solid, if somewhat inconsistant on a 10 point sliding scale.

I don't think, as many have stated, any GM would take on that contract.
Just an opinion though and hey, Sather and Sutter are still GM's

I kid, I kid.

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Old
08-09-2010, 12:30 PM
  #75
HyeDray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thisisacodee View Post
To BUF:
Trent Hunter
Tomas Kaberle
NYI 2011 2nd Round

To NYI:
Jason Pominville

To TOR:
BUF 2011 1st Round
Blake Kessel
Drew Stafford
As an Isles fan, I am mixed on this deal.
It seems like the Isles give up a bit much — and I would like to hold on to Blake Kessel — he has made real strides. Hunter is a solid guy as well, but you have to give to get.

Overall…its not the worst deal. But Buffalo loses scoring. They will strengthen on defense, but I just cant see them agreeing to this deal. Kaberle could walk, he is way too expensive for them. They get good value with Hunter in replacing Stafford, but they dont really replace Pominville's scoring in this deal. Unless there is someone waiting in the wings in Sabres country I don't know about....cant see them giving up two big pieces from their offense for Kaberle and Hunter.

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