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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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08-09-2010, 04:03 PM
  #801
Killion
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Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
Yes Mystery buyers- If they do exist the Cof G gets the award for the best kept secret ever in sport. It's been what at least a couple of weeks for the latest set of Mystery Buyers and still no leaks ... Amazing
HH?. If the US Government can whitewash Roswell, the very existence of Area 51, patent & then sell reverse engineered (from Alien technology) plans for everything from hot air popcorn makers to the the Chevy Corvair & Kia Sorento, then Im' sure the COG & the NHL can keep Mum on a couple of groups of Men in Black.

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08-09-2010, 04:09 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
HH?. If the US Government can whitewash Roswell, the very existence of Area 51, patent & then sell reverse engineered (from Alien technology) plans for everything from hot air popcorn makers to the the Chevy Corvair & Kia Sorento, then Im' sure the COG & the NHL can keep Mum on a couple of groups of Men in Black.
Now you've done it-there's gonna be a couple of people in Black suits with Coyotes logos showing up at your door now....

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08-09-2010, 04:16 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
And here we are. On the one hand optimism, on the other pessimism. Who's right, whose wrong?. Nothing the league has said would lead me to believe they are willing or able to drop the price. If they were/are, I think Jerry Reinsdorf would own the team right now. "Mystery Buyer's" likely have the same difficulty, reconciling the disparity in sale price with actual value, a willing COG in its creation of the CFD, but so many unknowns. It may well have been a "Freudian Slip" by Ice Edge's PR guy when he stated "we are working towards buying the team from the NHL first", as they knew/know just how far Glendale can go, the real difficulty being the $170M & counting shock sticker price. . Does the problem lie with Glendale or with the NHL?. Maybe IEH's backers are willing at $90M-$110M based on their own capitol infusions & the CFD; but the numbers just dont wash at $170M+?. This is what I mean by "ambivalence" from the league. If they wanted a deal done, it'd be done by now, accomadations made on price & or financing.

Note; And yes, league brass is smart, though I prefer "crafty". Instead of makling said accomadations, they are hiding behind the COG's skirts practically holding up a pair of Bunny Ears, blaming them while demanding $25M for its failure to secure an owner?. Wag the Dog much?. Where's the give & take?. Why arent they all at the table to thrash this thing out?.
Killion, to reiterate, I agree that the selling price for the Coyotes will remain firm, if for no other reason than the fact that this would set a strange precedent for the NHL to directly subsidize the maintenance of a team in a city, and its owners. My speculation is that the NHL extended the deadline past June 30 only because they hoped and anticipated that Reinsdorf could close the deal with Glendale. Remember, at that point only Reinsdorf had an MOU with Glendale. It seems to me that would have been the time (after the Reinsdorf MOU) when the NHL would have moved on the franchise price, if they were inclined to. However, when Reinsdorf pulled out (or was pushed out by Glendale) and the focus shifted to IEH I think it is fair to say that the NHL's public stance on this became decidedly diffident.

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08-09-2010, 04:16 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Now you've done it-there's gonna be a couple of people in Black suits with Coyotes logos showing up at your door now....
They just left. What time is it?. I seem to be missing a couple of hours & cant remember my name.

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08-09-2010, 04:21 PM
  #805
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They just left. What time is it?. I seem to be missing a couple of hours & cant remember my name.
That's okay, Killion. Luckily the HFBoards have documented and archived all of the relevant material on the Coyotes' situation, including your thoughts and opinions. If you have a strange sense of "deja vu" while re-reading the content, please note that is a normal response. We all have the same experience.

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08-09-2010, 04:24 PM
  #806
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Replying to a previous post regarding the need to build up the Phoenix fanbase: The fanbase has been chased away by terrible management and a belief that Moyes was using the team as a tax writoff and that fool Gretzky was using the team as a halfway house between an NHL career and the retirement home for all of his friends, Nedved, Amonte, Hull, etc.

I believe that the team will be profitable well before 20 years, but it will take 20 years to build up a following like teams in Vancouver, New York and Boston have.

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08-09-2010, 04:28 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
However, when Reinsdorf pulled out (or was pushed out by Glendale) and the focus shifted to IEH I think it is fair to say that the NHL's public stance on this became decidedly diffident.
Precisely. Does it not behoove the National Hockey League to market its' team to potential owners instead of leaving it all up to a municipality?. Is the NHL beating the bushes', at the table with Beasley/Tindal?. Their diffidence belies their public remonstrations in support of Phoenix.

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08-09-2010, 04:29 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Replying to a previous post regarding the need to build up the Phoenix fanbase: The fanbase has been chased away by terrible management and a belief that Moyes was using the team as a tax writoff and that fool Gretzky was using the team as a halfway house between an NHL career and the retirement home for all of his friends, Nedved, Amonte, Hull, etc.

I believe that the team will be profitable well before 20 years, but it will take 20 years to build up a following like teams in Vancouver, New York and Boston have.
who wants to lose money for 20 years?

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08-09-2010, 04:30 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
HH?. If the US Government can whitewash Roswell, the very existence of Area 51, patent & then sell reverse engineered (from Alien technology) plans for everything from hot air popcorn makers to the the Chevy Corvair & Kia Sorento, then Im' sure the COG & the NHL can keep Mum on a couple of groups of Men in Black.
Killion, you are the only person on the face of the earth that can use the terms "Roswell, Area 51, Chevy Corvair, Kia Sorrento, popcorn, Men In Black and your own mom in one coherent sentance about hockey.

EDIT - well, semi-coherent, anyway


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08-09-2010, 04:32 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Replying to a previous post regarding the need to build up the Phoenix fanbase: The fanbase has been chased away by terrible management and a belief that Moyes was using the team as a tax writoff and that fool Gretzky was using the team as a halfway house between an NHL career and the retirement home for all of his friends, Nedved, Amonte, Hull, etc.

I believe that the team will be profitable well before 20 years, but it will take 20 years to build up a following like teams in Vancouver, New York and Boston have.
Something that's said alot around here, while at the same time people also state you don't have to have ever played the game to be a fan of the game. So why 20 years. Lucky for musicians it doesn't take 20 years to develop a fanbase.

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08-09-2010, 04:43 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
I believe that the team will be profitable well before 20 years, but it will take 20 years to build up a following like teams in Vancouver, New York and Boston have.
It'll take less than 20 minutes to build up a following in Winnipeg, Quebec City & Hamilton. Let's take care of them first and then move on the long term projects like Phoenix.

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08-09-2010, 04:47 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
Lucky for musicians it doesn't take 20 years to develop a fanbase.
Oh boy. Here we go again HH. I'm having your Phoenix Coyotes Booster Club Membership revoked.

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08-09-2010, 04:47 PM
  #813
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What If?

Imagine how different our conversation would be if Bettman had delivered the original Reinsdorf offer and Moyes had accepted. Everybody would have been better off than they are now, and hockey would be saved (at least for a little while) in Glendale. In this case, hindsight is better than 20/20.

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08-09-2010, 04:56 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by Caps4Life View Post
Imagine how different our conversation would be if Bettman had delivered the original Reinsdorf offer and Moyes had accepted. Everybody would have been better off than they are now, and hockey would be saved (at least for a little while) in Glendale. In this case, hindsight is better than 20/20.
Unfortunately that would still be contingent on Moyes.

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08-09-2010, 05:56 PM
  #815
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Imagine how different our conversation would be if Bettman had delivered the original Reinsdorf offer and Moyes had accepted.
Wasn't the original Reinsdorf offer contingent on all the negotiations that have subsequently failed?

 
Old
08-09-2010, 06:42 PM
  #816
Killion
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I think that the topic of the potential relocation of the Coyotes to Winnipeg is very relevant to this "Business of Hockey" discussion, ever since the NHL entertained a "bona fide" offer from the TNSE to purchase the Coyotes and relocate them to Winnipeg.
True, they "have a horse in the race". Unfortunately, on both sides, it does tend to get a bit emotionally charged from time-time. I have no doubt, 110% certain the NHL's returning to the prairies (ditto QC), and very soon indeed. I'm just not so sure it'll be the Coyotes, nor any other relocated team for that matter.

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08-09-2010, 07:10 PM
  #817
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Many a battle with Fugu over that one.
The original Catch-22-- if you're insane, you wouldn't know it, would you?

(I like how this all ties in nicely with my thread title. Nothing like a bit of duress to prod the creative juices.)

Have you really been here long enough to suffer from exposure to fugu?


Now to clear the thread of the 'mine is bigger than yours' posts.

 
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08-09-2010, 07:13 PM
  #818
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Looking at Maricopa County, which grows by the population of Winnipeg every year and a half
No, it grew by just by 951,000 residents in about 9 years, in an area spread out over 9203 square miles. This works out to a population density of 437 per square mile.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/04/04013.html

Winnipeg has 642,000 in it's urban area as of the 2006 census, which are concentrated in a 173 square mile area. Urban density is 3700 per square mile.

Glendale has 208,000 people, and added 6,000 people between 2000 and 2007.

As for your claim that Winnipeger's are apathetic to the return of the NHL, I assume you haven't looked too deeply into the issue and are making emotional arguments not based in fact whatsoever. I think tnatibaH's answer is more in line with reality. Although I can't find any figures on what % of people consider themselves hockey fans in each respective city, I'm willing to bet that the % is much higher in Winnipeg than Glendale.

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08-09-2010, 07:18 PM
  #819
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No, it grew by just by 951,000 residents in about 9 years, in an area spread out over 9203 square miles. This works out to a population density of 437 per square mile.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/04/04013.html

Winnipeg has 642,000 in it's urban area as of the 2006 census, which are concentrated in a 173 square mile area. Urban density is 3700 per square mile.

Glendale has 208,000 people, and added 6,000 people between 2000 and 2007.

As for your claim that Winnipeger's are apathetic to the return of the NHL, I assume you haven't looked too deeply into the issue and are making emotional arguments not based in fact whatsoever. I think tnatibaH's answer is more in line with reality. Although I can't find any figures on what % of people consider themselves hockey fans in each respective city, I'm willing to bet that the % is much higher in Winnipeg than Glendale.
Most of the Maricopa growth is by illegal Mexicans, whom the Arizona Gov't is trying to kick out. Yes they are counted in the Census because the local governments get money for each one of them, illegal or not.


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08-09-2010, 07:34 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Replying to a previous post regarding the need to build up the Phoenix fanbase: The fanbase has been chased away by terrible management and a belief that Moyes was using the team as a tax writoff and that fool Gretzky was using the team as a halfway house between an NHL career and the retirement home for all of his friends, Nedved, Amonte, Hull, etc.

I believe that the team will be profitable well before 20 years, but it will take 20 years to build up a following like teams in Vancouver, New York and Boston have.
im going to disagree with that one. it will take AT LEAST 20 years and a handfull of stanley cups to even come close to those fanbases.

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08-09-2010, 07:41 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Replying to a previous post regarding the need to build up the Phoenix fanbase: The fanbase has been chased away by terrible management and a belief that Moyes was using the team as a tax writoff and that fool Gretzky was using the team as a halfway house between an NHL career and the retirement home for all of his friends, Nedved, Amonte, Hull, etc.

I believe that the team will be profitable well before 20 years, but it will take 20 years to build up a following like teams in Vancouver, New York and Boston have.
Stop with the crap about all of Moyes' shananigans chasing away the fanbase. That implies there was a sizable fanbase to start with, which is incorrect. They have never drawn well, and any games that Moyes may or may not have been playing with the books didn't come out into the public until the bankruptcy. 13 money-losing, poorly-attended seasons after they started in Phoenix.

If it will take 20 years to hit profitability, what's the answer? Again, if it makes sense for the NHL to want and need a team in Phoenix, maybe they'll cover the losses for the next 20 years. Short of that though, it looks like the team is moving.

Would you be willing to pay far too much for an asset that will lose you money for 20 years with a proven track record of futility and a strong probability that it will never turn a profit and ultimately fail? No? And apparently no one else is willing either. Unless they can pay for it with someone else's money and get a sweetheart deal from COG.

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08-09-2010, 07:48 PM
  #822
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Stop with the crap about all of Moyes' shananigans chasing away the fanbase. That implies there was a sizable fanbase to start with, which is incorrect. They have never drawn well
Pretty much all your credibility flew out the window with this statement. 15,405, 15604, 15,548 through their first three seasons is nothing to sneeze at, especially in the US Airways Center which was completely ill-fitted for hockey. Followed by another 15000 line from 2003 to 2005, outdrawing New Jersey and Boston at times. If they drew any of these numbers this upcoming season and the teams keep their usual pace, they would be outdrawing New Jersey, Tampa Bay among others, who are never mentioned in relocation talks. Because they've won a cup, mostly.

Hell, during the period I mention, they outdrew Buffalo for two years.

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08-09-2010, 07:51 PM
  #823
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That's okay, Killion. Luckily the HFBoards have documented and archived all of the relevant material on the Coyotes' situation, including your thoughts and opinions. If you have a strange sense of "deja vu" while re-reading the content, please note that is a normal response. We all have the same experience.
Well Played!


So what about the part where Killion said he was giving each poster a thousand dollars...oh wait was I supposed to mention that?

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08-09-2010, 08:27 PM
  #824
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Is Maricopa county still experiencing rapid growth? I thought I heard that growth in the southern regions slowed considerably with the financial crisis.

Funny that should come up today.... it was three years ago today that BNP said it couldn't value it's MBSs and the ECB ***** it's pants.

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08-09-2010, 09:28 PM
  #825
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Nope, it will because they can't find a suitable buyer.

The community wants them to stay, if you read any articles not OMG COYOTES TO WINNIPEG?
So, what would be your hypothesis as to why a suitable owner might not be found?

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