HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-09-2010, 09:32 PM
  #826
Fugu
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Well, that was an interesting detour.

Back on track, please.

 
Old
08-09-2010, 09:35 PM
  #827
headsigh
leave at once!
 
headsigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Atlanta
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 9,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnatibaH View Post
So, what would be your hypothesis as to why a suitable owner might not be found?
It's an economic recession, as was in Canada when Winnipeg left.

headsigh is offline  
Old
08-09-2010, 09:42 PM
  #828
NODLR
The Dog House
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Margaritaville
Posts: 1,641
vCash: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
It's an economic recession, as was in Canada when Winnipeg left.
IMHO, it'll be for a few more reasons that just the economic situation.

NODLR is offline  
Old
08-09-2010, 09:55 PM
  #829
headsigh
leave at once!
 
headsigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Atlanta
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 9,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnatibaH View Post
IMHO, it'll be for a few more reasons that just the economic situation.
Are we still going through this "no attendance" idea? New Jersey has no attendance. "no attendance" is just the tip of the iceberg, and that's not going to be the sole reason PHX move if they do.

headsigh is offline  
Old
08-09-2010, 10:04 PM
  #830
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
Pretty much all your credibility flew out the window with this statement. 15,405, 15604, 15,548 through their first three seasons is nothing to sneeze at, especially in the US Airways Center which was completely ill-fitted for hockey. Followed by another 15000 line from 2003 to 2005, outdrawing New Jersey and Boston at times. If they drew any of these numbers this upcoming season and the teams keep their usual pace, they would be outdrawing New Jersey, Tampa Bay among others, who are never mentioned in relocation talks. Because they've won a cup, mostly.

Hell, during the period I mention, they outdrew Buffalo for two years.
Those "announced attendance" figures you use are bogus. According to court documents submitted by the Coyotes in the bankruptcy proceedings, the Coyotes averaged around 12,000 in paid and actual attendance through out their history in Phoenix, with below average ticket prices. I would add the actual image of the court document, but I've posted it here so many times in response to posts like yours that the mods tend to delete it for some reason.

GHOST


Last edited by MAROONSRoad: 08-09-2010 at 10:10 PM.
MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-09-2010, 10:17 PM
  #831
NODLR
The Dog House
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Margaritaville
Posts: 1,641
vCash: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Those "announced attendance" figures you use are bogus. According to court documents submitted by the Coyotes in the bankruptcy proceedings, the Coyotes averaged around 12,000 in paid and actual attendance through out their history in Phoenix, with below average ticket prices. I would add the actual image of the court document, but I've posted it here so many times in response to posts like yours that the mods tend to delete it for some reason.

GHOST
This one?

NODLR is offline  
Old
08-09-2010, 10:19 PM
  #832
headsigh
leave at once!
 
headsigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Atlanta
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 9,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Those "announced attendance" figures you use are bogus. According to court documents submitted by the Coyotes in the bankruptcy proceedings, the Coyotes averaged around 12,000 in paid and actual attendance through out their history in Phoenix, with below average ticket prices. I would add the actual image of the court document, but I've posted it here so many times in response to posts like yours that the mods tend to delete it for some reason.

GHOST
That sucks, I was of the impression my sources were trustworthy.

Eh, from the horse's mouth I suppose. I wouldn't mind like you to PM me the court document if you can't post it in thread though, it might make for some interesting reading.

headsigh is offline  
Old
08-09-2010, 10:45 PM
  #833
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
That sucks, I was of the impression my sources were trustworthy.

Eh, from the horse's mouth I suppose. I wouldn't mind like you to PM me the court document if you can't post it in thread though, it might make for some interesting reading.
I don't have the complete document at my finger tips, but here are some images that were uploaded by someone to the photobucket.com website. I believe they are relevant to this thread. Enjoy.











GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 12:04 AM
  #834
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
One thing that stand out in the above data: only 7,000 HH watched the Coyotes games on TV. That's an extremely low figure. By contrast, small market Canadian teams average about 150,000 viewers in their respective markets. The Montreal Canadiens do about 1 million. It seems like the TV value of having an NHL team in Arizona has not worked out so far.

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 12:07 AM
  #835
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
One thing that stand out in the above data: only 7,000 HH watched the Coyotes games on TV.
Why compare to Canada?

Do you have numbers for Florida, Carolina, Nashville and Columbus? Those might be better comparables WRT franchise time in market.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 12:17 AM
  #836
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Why compare to Canada?

Do you have numbers for Florida, Carolina, Nashville and Columbus? Those might be better comparables WRT franchise time in market.
It's all part of the debate. For example, some posters here suggest the NHL needs the Arizona market place for the big national USA TV contract. However, the TV rating figures like most metrics for that market are abysmal.

The data was put out for various fanchises using FSNs a while ago and posted here. I remember Atlanta had very bad numbers as well as Florida. It appears Phoenix is one of the worst markets though.

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 12:26 AM
  #837
Fugu
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Why compare to Canada?

Do you have numbers for Florida, Carolina, Nashville and Columbus? Those might be better comparables WRT franchise time in market.

In fairness to GHOST, he has had to endure plenty of comments suggesting any city beyond the current six would be too small to support an NHL team. As such, it is a valid to point out that market penetration in Canada is deeper-- more people per capita will go to games and watch on TV. This isn't opinion, but data backed up by market research. The goose and gander approach, if you will.

 
Old
08-10-2010, 12:44 AM
  #838
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
In fairness to GHOST, he has had to endure plenty of comments suggesting any city beyond the current six would be too small to support an NHL team. As such, it is a valid to point out that market penetration in Canada is deeper-- more people per capita will go to games and watch on TV. This isn't opinion, but data backed up by market research. The goose and gander approach, if you will.
Fugu, all the demographic data is interesting, but as I've said many times before: what matters the most is whether you have an ownership group willing and able to support an NHL team in your city. That applies to Phoenix as well as Winnipeg.

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 06:39 AM
  #839
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
6yrs. 95-01. IMO, big mistake dropping a team into Vancouver in the first place. GM Place was brand new, then owner Orca Bay wanted dual tenancy. Ineptitude on the court combined with a lack of history & just general apathy doomed the franchise. Money pit. David Stern admitted "it was a mistake" that he "regrets" in awarding a franchise to Vancouver, worse still to then have to move it.
IMO.... Sounds more like the Grizzlies were pushed on a market before it was ready.

Not too similar to the what I view as the situation with the Coyotes. Not because of the market itself, but more that the Jets were shoehorned into Phoenix before the city (and AWA) were ready to properly accomodate them.

If you really want to look at this from an overall perspective.... it's been a "gong show" since 1996 (maybe even sooner). And the only people who aren't at fault are the hockey fans in Winnipeg and Phoenix(metro).

TheLegend is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 07:19 AM
  #840
Hammer79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kelowna
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,952
vCash: 500
Quote:
IMO.... Sounds more like the Grizzlies were pushed on a market before it was ready.

Not too similar to the what I view as the situation with the Coyotes. Not because of the market itself, but more that the Jets were shoehorned into Phoenix before the city (and AWA) were ready to properly accomodate them.

If you really want to look at this from an overall perspective.... it's been a "gong show" since 1996 (maybe even sooner). And the only people who aren't at fault are the hockey fans in Winnipeg and Phoenix(metro).
I think there are more parallels between the Grizzlies franchise move and the Coyotes current situation than most people realize.

Their troubles began from birth of the franchise, they couldn't draft in the top 5 in their first year because the other NBA owners were still stinging from the Magic winning a championship in their 6th year of existence with their consecutive #1 picks in Penny Hardaway and Shaquille O'Neal. The Grizzlies had a terrible record, long losing streaks and picks that didn't pan out in Bryant Reeves, Antonio Daniels. In '99, they drafted Steve Francis at #2, but he pouted and refused to play for the team, forcing a 3-team trade that wasn't favorable for the Grizzlies.

Orca Bay, the company which owned the Canucks and the Grizzlies, was losing money on the perennial basement-dwelling Grizzlies. Initially they were going to sell the team to Bill Laurie, who admitted publicly that he intended to move the franchise to St Louis. (See the parallel to Jim Balsillie here?) The league rejected that sale because of his being up-front about intending to move the team. Eventually the team was sold to Michael Heisley, who publicly stated that he'd keep the team in Vancouver. (see the parallel to Jerry Reinsdorf?) It turned out that he wasn't being truthful at all, he moved the team within the year, despite an increase in fan support.

At least the NHL stepped in for Phoenix when ownership problems emerged, and under the management of the NHL, they actually iced a competitive team to try and build support in the community. The NBA certainly didn't give the city of Vancouver that kind of opportunity, they never got to see a competitive Grizzlies team take the court...


Last edited by Hammer79: 08-10-2010 at 07:28 AM.
Hammer79 is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 07:36 AM
  #841
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Well Played!


So what about the part where Killion said he was giving each poster a thousand dollars...oh wait was I supposed to mention that?
What, you didn't get your cheque already? It must be in the mail...

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 07:41 AM
  #842
Potrzebie
Registered User
 
Potrzebie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 907
vCash: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
IMO.... Sounds more like the Grizzlies were pushed on a market before it was ready.

Not too similar to the what I view as the situation with the Coyotes. Not because of the market itself, but more that the Jets were shoehorned into Phoenix before the city (and AWA) were ready to properly accomodate them.

If you really want to look at this from an overall perspective.... it's been a "gong show" since 1996 (maybe even sooner). And the only people who aren't at fault are the hockey fans in Winnipeg and Phoenix(metro).
Good point. It was a "gong show" in Winnipeg long before 1996. Anyone who endured the "great arena debate" can attest to that.

Potrzebie is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 09:40 AM
  #843
Alan Jackson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Why compare to Canada?

Do you have numbers for Florida, Carolina, Nashville and Columbus? Those might be better comparables WRT franchise time in market.
Here you go:

http://www.thesportmarket.biz/charts.htm

Quote:


1* Montreal Canadiens RDS* 688,000*
2 Toronto Maple Leafs Rogers Sportsnet Ontario 656,400
3 Vancouver Canucks Rogers Sportsnet Pacific 398,500
4 Calgary Flames Rogers Sportsnet West 221,300
5 Pittsburgh Penguins FSN Pittsburgh 214,100
6 Chicago Blackhawks Comcast Sportsnet / WGN-TV 9 196,800
7 Detroit Red Wings FSN Detroit 186,600
8 Edmonton Oilers Rogers Sportsnet West 181,400
9 Ottawa Senators Rogers Sportsnet Ontario 153,400
10 New York Rangers MSG Network 152,200

11 Philadelphia Flyers Comcast Sportsnet / CN8 147,900
12 Boston Bruins NESN (New England Sports Network) 120,800
13 New Jersey Devils MSG Plus 99,200
14 Buffalo Sabres MSG Network 93,600
15 Washington Capitals Comcast Sportsnet 85,400
16 St. Louis Blues FSN Midwest 67,000
17 Minnesota Wild FSN North / KSTC-TV 66,500
18 San Jose Sharks CSN California 63,200
19 Los Angeles Kings FSN West / Prime ticket 62,400
20 New York Islanders MSG Plus 61,500

21 Colorado Avalanche Altitude 54,700
22 Anaheim Ducks FSN West 54,700
23 Dallas Stars FSN Southwest / KDFI My27 42,400
24 Columbus Blue Jackets FSN Ohio 29,600
25 Phoenix Coyotes FSN Arizona 26,500

26 Carolina Hurricanes FSN Carolina 25,300 (est.)
27 Nashville Predators FSN Tennessee 25,300 (est.)
28 Tampa Bay Lightning Sun Sports 25,100
29 Atlanta Thrashers Sportsouth 18,000
30 Florida Panthers FSN Florida 13,400

Alan Jackson is online now  
Old
08-10-2010, 10:20 AM
  #844
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
Those look to be 09-10 numbers (as the Sharks changed their TV network "name" last season).

So, per those figures, Phoenix increased by significant amount and are ahead of those other markets I mentioned.

Interesting.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 10:44 AM
  #845
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Those look to be 09-10 numbers (as the Sharks changed their TV network "name" last season).

So, per those figures, Phoenix increased by significant amount and are ahead of those other markets I mentioned.

Interesting.
Even if true, being ahead of the weak sisters in one category (while miles behind every team in ticket revenue) is nothing to be too excited about. The real comparison is Winnipeg. I suspect Winnipeg TV numbers would be far closer to Edmonton and Ottawa than Columbus and Tampa.

The other obvious piece we are missing here is that all of the Canadian teams are somewhat punished by HNIC and TSN national games - none of which figure into their ratings. Traditionally Saturday night is hockey night for Canadians, and those games would pull in the highest ratings. The Leaf ratings on Sportsnet are all, by definition, mid-week games so if you averaged everything out they would get far more than 656,000 viewers for the average game.

CGG is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 10:49 AM
  #846
OthmarAmmann
Money making machine
 
OthmarAmmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Those look to be 09-10 numbers (as the Sharks changed their TV network "name" last season).

So, per those figures, Phoenix increased by significant amount and are ahead of those other markets I mentioned.

Interesting.
I would imagine the earlier portion of the season was well below their average and the latter part of the season was well above their average for the year


Last edited by OthmarAmmann: 08-10-2010 at 10:53 AM. Reason: clarification
OthmarAmmann is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 01:43 PM
  #847
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,144
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So what about the part where Killion said he was giving each poster a thousand dollars...oh wait was I supposed to mention that?
Huh?. Say what now?. I believe I promised to match every posters investment of $1000 in the Coyotes franchise, provided the NHL doesnt have a problem with app. 86 million owners, all with varying & disparate opinions about 4th line centres, delayed offsides & oversized goalie equipment.

Killion is online now  
Old
08-10-2010, 02:27 PM
  #848
cheswick
Non-registered User
 
cheswick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peg City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,903
vCash: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Huh?. Say what now?. I believe I promised to match every posters investment of $1000 in the Coyotes franchise, provided the NHL doesnt have a problem with app. 86 million owners, all with varying & disparate opinions about 4th line centres, delayed offsides & oversized goalie equipment.
Itd surely be 86,000 owners not million. I'm sure the league would be much more willing to accept that

cheswick is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 03:05 PM
  #849
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,460
vCash: 500
If Phoenix moves, it's because nobody wants to own a team there. Seems pretty simple.

Confucius is offline  
Old
08-10-2010, 03:09 PM
  #850
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
Itd surely be 86,000 owners not million. I'm sure the league would be much more willing to accept that
86 hundred season ticket holders (At NHL Average prices) would probably be enough, to have someone interested in owning it.

Confucius is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.