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Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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Old
08-10-2010, 03:18 PM
  #851
Whileee
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Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
If Phoenix moves, it's because nobody wants to own a team there. Seems pretty simple.
I am not sure it is that simple. Since in the short-term prospective owners are insisting on heavy subsidization to reduce their financial outlay and risk, I think I would add that if the Coyotes move it is also because local businesses are not willing and/or able to commit to those subsidies for a prospective owner.

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08-10-2010, 03:48 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I am not sure it is that simple. Since in the short-term prospective owners are insisting on heavy subsidization to reduce their financial outlay and risk, I think I would add that if the Coyotes move it is also because local businesses are not willing and/or able to commit to those subsidies for a prospective owner.
Phoenix cannot support this team. The team plays 40 mins out of phoenix and from what i have heard it is a horrible drive to get there. The team is lose lose the longer it is in glendale. Might as well move them out

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08-10-2010, 04:07 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Bruinbear View Post
Phoenix cannot support this team. The team plays 40 mins out of phoenix and from what i have heard it is a horrible drive to get there. The team is lose lose the longer it is in glendale. Might as well move them out
The 40 min drive is nothing, I made it from Apache Junction in about 45min to 1hr on the freeway. I loved the stoplights on the on ramps as well

Thats one thing I do miss though, driving on the 60 , at least drivers down there knew how to merge!.

More often than not, people up here SLOW DOWN instead of SPEEDING UP when trying to merge!

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08-10-2010, 04:19 PM
  #854
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my parents snowbird in mesa and when i go from their place to games in glendale it is a 140 km round trip....and that isnt even all the way across the city.

phoenix is the world's largest suburb.

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08-10-2010, 04:25 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
I don't have the complete document at my finger tips, but here are some images that were uploaded by someone to the photobucket.com website. I believe they are relevant to this thread. Enjoy.

...

GHOST
Where did that study referenced, "Hotspex inc, fan perspectives.." come from, GHOST? I would like to see more of if it.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-10-2010 at 06:21 PM. Reason: truncated
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08-10-2010, 04:33 PM
  #856
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Where did that study referenced, "Hotspex inc, fan perspectives.." come from, GHOST? I would like to see more of if it.
That information is part of of the Phoenix bankruptcy court documents.

So, if it's not there, an internet search may be needed.

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08-10-2010, 04:37 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by jessebelanger View Post
Where did that study referenced, "Hotspex inc, fan perspectives.." come from, GHOST? I would like to see more of if it.
http://www.canada.com/pdf/RelocationApp.pdf
Page 13

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08-10-2010, 05:04 PM
  #858
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Metro Phoenix is no less of a hockey market than Detroit.

Flashback to 1996.....If the Red Wings had the same lineup that came from Winnipeg in '96, the same terrible lease / obstructed-view arena for 10 years, the same terrible drafting the Coyotes did from 1996-2002, the same playoff failure from 1996 to present, and the same failure the Coyotes made by not beginning the rebuild around 2001 (Jeff Carter sure would have looked good in a Coyote sweater)...........The Red Wings would have probably already been moved from Detroit......It has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with 10 years of totally inept management (Hello Bobby Smith) and ownership, which is the biggest reason for the lack of any sort of sustained success on the ice.

Like Phoenix, Detroit has a successful Major League baseball team (marked by a World Championship), equally miserable (up until 2 years ago) yet popular NFL franchises , very successful NBA teams, and major College sports teams to draw support,ticket sales, revenue,etc away from the Red Wings.

I guess the Red Wings should be relocated to Canada eh?

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08-10-2010, 05:14 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
Metro Phoenix is no less of a hockey market than Detroit.

Flashback to 1996.....If the Red Wings had the same lineup that came from Winnipeg in '96, the same terrible lease / obstructed-view arena for 10 years, the same terrible drafting the Coyotes did from 1996-2002, the same playoff failure from 1996 to present, and the same failure the Coyotes made by not beginning the rebuild around 2001 (Jeff Carter sure would have looked good in a Coyote sweater)...........The Red Wings would have probably already been moved from Detroit......It has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with 10 years of totally inept management (Hello Bobby Smith) and ownership, which is the biggest reason for the lack of any sort of sustained success on the ice.

Like Phoenix, Detroit has a successful Major League baseball team (marked by a World Championship), equally miserable (up until 2 years ago) yet popular NFL franchises , very successful NBA teams, and major College sports teams to draw support,ticket sales, revenue,etc away from the Red Wings.

I guess the Red Wings should be relocated to Canada eh?
Detroit wins. It attracts bandwagoners at first, but that is the first step to a fanbase.

Phoenix is a franchise that has not won a playoff round since its inception. They need success. Not "one appearance in round one" success, sustained long-term success, something to get the fans looking forward to the upcoming year. Detroit has pretty much been in the successful picture since... I don't know, '95?

Up until this year, you looked forward to not being a horrible lottery team, but not much else.

Phoenix is a market that works, but like I said in an earlier post, you have a team, but what does it have to offer? You have to get fans interested. Fans like winning.

This upcoming season is going to be a make or break one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
my parents snowbird in mesa and when i go from their place to games in glendale it is a 140 km round trip....and that isnt even all the way across the city.

phoenix is the world's largest suburb.
Putting the arena in a suburb of the suburb probably didn't help.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-10-2010 at 06:37 PM. Reason: disclosure
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Old
08-10-2010, 05:53 PM
  #860
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Just a quick question for those in the know, this claim that was submitted is for the 09-10 pre and season tickets $7040.00 that I presume were purchased.
http://docs.bmcgroup.com/DeweyRanchH...4_00000040.PDF
How can the Individual in question put a claim forward to recoup the money if the teaqm played the season??

Anyone?

Thanks

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08-10-2010, 05:55 PM
  #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post

I guess the Red Wings should be relocated to Canada eh?
Toronto's been without an NHL team for decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headsigh View Post

Putting the arena in a suburb of the suburb probably didn't help.
That & ditto on all of the rest of both of your posts.

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08-10-2010, 06:30 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
Metro Phoenix is no less of a hockey market than Detroit.

Flashback to 1996.....If the Red Wings had the same lineup that came from Winnipeg in '96, the same terrible lease / obstructed-view arena for 10 years, the same terrible drafting the Coyotes did from 1996-2002, the same playoff failure from 1996 to present, and the same failure the Coyotes made by not beginning the rebuild around 2001 (Jeff Carter sure would have looked good in a Coyote sweater)...........The Red Wings would have probably already been moved from Detroit......It has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with 10 years of totally inept management (Hello Bobby Smith) and ownership, which is the biggest reason for the lack of any sort of sustained success on the ice.

Like Phoenix, Detroit has a successful Major League baseball team (marked by a World Championship), equally miserable (up until 2 years ago) yet popular NFL franchises , very successful NBA teams, and major College sports teams to draw support,ticket sales, revenue,etc away from the Red Wings.

I guess the Red Wings should be relocated to Canada eh?



Detroit is partially Canadian, if one considers that Windsor is just over the river, and the number of transplants here. I'm not a Michigan native, but one thing that struck me after moving here years ago is how interlinked with Ontario Michigan is, especially on the hockey scene. Two OHL teams (yes, Ontario jr hockey league) are in Michigan.

I really do think you're way off on this one. Detroit has had a hockey team since the beginning of time, surviving a depression and some wars in the process. It would take more than a small blip in team quality to kill the Wings here. Furthermore, you're really understating the competition for sports entertainment. All four major sports leagues, plus U of M and MSU football, hockey, and basketball. OHL team in Plymouth. USHL teams in Flint and Toledo. AHL team is on the other side of the state, so that one doesn't count. I don't think Phoenix even remotely compares to Detroit as far as competition for the sports dollar.

 
Old
08-10-2010, 06:37 PM
  #863
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Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
Detroit wins. It attracts bandwagoners at first, but that is the first step to a fanbase.

Phoenix is a franchise that has not won a playoff round since its inception. They need success. Not "one appearance in round one" success, sustained long-term success, something to get the fans looking forward to the upcoming year. Detroit has pretty much been in the successful picture since... I don't know, '95?
About 20 yrs straight of playoff appearances now. I think only NJD and Lou beat them out by one year.

Most fans in most cities are probably bandwagoners, but are you really suggesting that about a team that has 80+ yrs going for it?

Quote:
Putting the arena in a suburb of the suburb probably didn't help.
I think this is a point that gets overlooked all too often by both sides. On the one side, the condemnation of Phoenix as a market ignores the reality of the location and lease issues, among other matters. On the flip side, the supporters are too quick to respond to the condemnations that they too ignore the reality of the location and lease issues, among other things.

It should be a prime focus because being in a suburb of a suburb may be makes very little business sense.

 
Old
08-10-2010, 06:46 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
:

Detroit is partially Canadian, if one considers that Windsor is just over the river, and the number of transplants here. I'm not a Michigan native, but one thing that I don't think Phoenix even remotely compares to Detroit as far as competition for the sports dollar.
Certainly from a historical/cultural/hockey perspective Detroit & Phoenix are vastly different, however, absent hockey in both markets much the same in terms of competition for the entertainment dollar.

BTW; will MSU ever win a game against OSU?. 6yrs & counting.

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08-10-2010, 06:55 PM
  #865
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Thankyou for the link!

I'm making my way through it now - I have to question some of the references used in the document - this firm is really referencing Wikipedia in a court proceding?

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08-10-2010, 07:13 PM
  #866
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Thankyou for the link!

I'm making my way through it now - I have to question some of the references used in the document - this firm is really referencing Wikipedia in a court proceding?
I see no problems with it, they aren't using it as a single source but are also providing other sources along with it.

Now on the other hand, if that was their only source, then I would be highly skeptical.

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08-10-2010, 09:19 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by tnatibaH View Post
Just a quick question for those in the know, this claim that was submitted is for the 09-10 pre and season tickets $7040.00 that I presume were purchased.
http://docs.bmcgroup.com/DeweyRanchH...4_00000040.PDF
How can the Individual in question put a claim forward to recoup the money if the teaqm played the season??

Anyone?

Thanks
All current and former season ticket holders received letters from Moyes' legal team during the BK advising us to get our claims in as unsecured creditors to the BK court or risk losing every penny we paid or deposited on tickets.

IOW, if you bought tickets and the team moves and you don't file a claim, you lose your money. Same if you put down a deposit. If you file a claim, you might get a fraction back along with all the other unsecured creditors.

Great marketing plan to encourage folks to buy tickets for the 2009-10 season, eh?

And BTW, the claim was filed in July 2009, during the BK hearings.

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08-10-2010, 09:36 PM
  #868
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All current and former season ticket holders received letters from Moyes' legal team during the BK advising us to get our claims in as unsecured creditors to the BK court or risk losing every penny we paid or deposited on tickets.

IOW, if you bought tickets and the team moves and you don't file a claim, you lose your money. Same if you put down a deposit. If you file a claim, you might get a fraction back along with all the other unsecured creditors.

Great marketing plan to encourage folks to buy tickets for the 2009-10 season, eh?

And BTW, the claim was filed in July 2009, during the BK hearings.
Gotacha TYVM, sort of like buying insurance at the blackjack table.

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08-10-2010, 10:00 PM
  #869
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Certainly from a historical/cultural/hockey perspective Detroit & Phoenix are vastly different, however, absent hockey in both markets much the same in terms of competition for the entertainment dollar.

BTW; will MSU ever win a game against OSU?. 6yrs & counting.

Do you mean U of M? I think that's the big rivalry with OSU. I hate football weekends. 100K people blocking every route into Ann Arbor, or out. If you forget it's a game day and venture out, you really could lose the afternoon trying to get back home, well unless you know the backroads.

 
Old
08-10-2010, 10:07 PM
  #870
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Do you mean U of M? I think that's the big rivalry with OSU. I hate football weekends. 100K people blocking every route into Ann Arbor, or out. If you forget it's a game day and venture out, you really could lose the afternoon trying to get back home, well unless you know the backroads.
And we know how well you know the back roads Fugu


I mean of the business forum of course!


ANYWAY.....

So where are we now? Any indication from ANYONE about movment? Or are we all waiting for the NHL to cash that nice cheque? I just feel like we're back at the beginning of the "six month" soap opera feel.....


BTW, love the Avatar

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08-10-2010, 10:21 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
And we know how well you know the back roads Fugu


I mean of the business forum of course!


ANYWAY.....

So where are we now? Any indication from ANYONE about movment? Or are we all waiting for the NHL to cash that nice cheque? I just feel like we're back at the beginning of the "six month" soap opera feel.....


BTW, love the Avatar
Avatar isn't Killion Approved yet, so I'm kinda nervous about it.


I think the ship is in The Doldrums at the moment.

 
Old
08-10-2010, 11:15 PM
  #872
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Avatar isn't Killion Approved yet, so I'm kinda nervous about it.

I think the ship is in The Doldrums at the moment.
Unhunh. Yepp. Im likin the Snow Owl. Very David Lynch. Approved.

And aye', best we put oar to water, pull ourselves out of this "Fugue" like state.

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08-10-2010, 11:36 PM
  #873
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Interesting data. Note all 6 of the Canadian teams are in the top 10 in regional networks. Also, the three teams between the Canadian teams have all won Stanley Cups recently. The other "top 10" team is the NY Rangers.

Quote:
TOP TEN
Rank Club Regional rights holder Average audience
Per game broadcast

1* Montreal Canadiens RDS* 688,000*
2 Toronto Maple Leafs Rogers Sportsnet Ontario 656,400
3 Vancouver Canucks Rogers Sportsnet Pacific 398,500
4 Calgary Flames Rogers Sportsnet West 221,300
5 Pittsburgh Penguins FSN Pittsburgh 214,100
6 Chicago Blackhawks Comcast Sportsnet / WGN-TV 9 196,800
7 Detroit Red Wings FSN Detroit 186,600
8 Edmonton Oilers Rogers Sportsnet West 181,400
9 Ottawa Senators Rogers Sportsnet Ontario 153,400
10 New York Rangers MSG Network 152,200
The data doesn't include national broadcasts either, where 1 to 2 million are not unusual on HNIC.

The data on gate receipts for recent years is similar and suggests additional teams in Canadian markets are more than viable. See here:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/0...ts_revenue.pdf

Scroll to the second page:

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf

GHOST

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08-11-2010, 12:35 AM
  #874
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A juxtaposition:

Quote:
Rank Club Regional rights holder Average audience
Per game broadcast

1* Montreal Canadiens RDS* 688,000*
2 Toronto Maple Leafs Rogers Sportsnet Ontario 656,400
3 Vancouver Canucks Rogers Sportsnet Pacific 398,500
4 Calgary Flames Rogers Sportsnet West 221,300
8 Edmonton Oilers Rogers Sportsnet West 181,400
9 Ottawa Senators Rogers Sportsnet Ontario 153,400

.....

24 Columbus Blue Jackets FSN Ohio 29,600
25 Phoenix Coyotes FSN Arizona 26,500
26 Carolina Hurricanes FSN Carolina 25,300 (est.)
27 Nashville Predators FSN Tennessee 25,300 (est.)
28 Tampa Bay Lightning Sun Sports 25,100
29 Atlanta Thrashers Sportsouth 18,000
30 Florida Panthers FSN Florida 13,400
GHOST

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08-11-2010, 09:35 AM
  #875
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August 11 2010 and nothin' happenening on the sales front. I don't know if I should or .

I have to wonder if the CoG is only allowed to negotiate with any one potential buyer for no more than 5 minutes per day. Seriously....small countries have been bought and sold in less time than this is taking.

For the love of whatever deity you believe in.. get the CoG and IEH ( or JR ) to lock themselves in a room with a fridge full of beer and don't come out until it is done. It just can't be this hard..

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