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Selšnne vs Modano

View Poll Results: Choose a player (all-time):
Teemu Ilmari Selšnne 136 89.47%
Michael Thomas Modano, Jr. 14 9.21%
I'm sorry I can't, they are way too close 2 1.32%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-10-2010, 08:48 AM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Am I having another bad morning or does hfboards no longer let you delete posts?


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08-10-2010, 12:04 PM
  #52
jepjepjoo
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
I'd argue that Modano was better than Selanne between 1993 (Selanne's rookie season) and 2004 (last season before the lockout).

Selanne outscored Modano by an average of just 5.1 points per year during that period (link). They played roughly the same number of games (actually Selanne played in slightly more but the difference is minor). In fairness to Selanne, he usually played on weaker teams than the Stars. In fairness to Modano, he played in one of the most stifling defensive systems in the league which clearly reduced his personal stats for the greater good of the team. Offensively, Selanne gets the edge but it's quite a bit smaller than I would have expected.
You include Selanne's injury years 2001-2004, but leave out post lockout?

1993-2001

Selanne per 82 games: 49 goals 54 assists
Modano per 82 games: 38 goals 51 assists

Selanne did have a minor knee surgery allready in 2001 and had lost a step due to his bad knees. (leaving out the 00-01 would bring Selanne's numbers to 50g 56a and Modano's would stay same.)

2001-2004 (Selanne with bad knees)

Modano per 82gp 27 goals 46 assists
Selanne per 82gp 25 goals 26 assists

2005-present (Modano gets old)

Selanne per 82gp 41 goals 41 assists
Modano per 82gp 23 goals 35 assists

If you still insist they were close in production here are their best seasons in adjusted stats. (adjusted since both have had long careers which span on different eras):

Points:

1.Selanne 131
2.Selanne 122
3.Selanne 116
4.Selanne 113
5.Selanne 106
6.Selanne 103
7.Modano 102
8.Selanne 99
8.Modano 99
10.Modano 97

Goals:

1.Selanne 67
2.Selanne 64
3.Selanne 58
4.Selanne 57
5.Selanne 54
6. Modano 49
7. Modano 45
8. Selanne 43
8. Selanne 43
10. Selanne 42
10. Modano 42
10. Modano 42

Modano 16 seasons with over 70 games played
Selanne 12 seasons with over 70 games played (3 of them with bad knees)

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Old
08-10-2010, 12:07 PM
  #53
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
You include Selanne's injury years 2001-2004, but leave out post lockout?
Sorry to interrupt your outrage at the mistreatment of your boy Selanne, but he did say this in the very post you quoted:

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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post

That being said, Selanne's excellent international career and post-lockout resurgence pushes him ahead of Modano on my all-time list.

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08-10-2010, 12:19 PM
  #54
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Selanne's excellent international career and post-lockout resurgence pushes him ahead of Modano on my all-time list.
I guess I'd have to agree (wrt all-time list ranking). Strictly offensive production-based arguments included or not, though, I'm still not convinced that Selanne has at any time been better than Modano was at his best. FWIW, of course, given that I have a long track record of holding "top" centres in higher regard than even the best wingers due to the skills and responsibilities typically involved.

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08-10-2010, 12:30 PM
  #55
jepjepjoo
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Sorry to interrupt your outrage at the mistreatment of your boy Selanne, but he did say this in the very post you quoted:
Yup, but he used 93-04 stats to argue that Modano was better in 93-04. While it's clear that 93-01 Selanne was better and it's clear that in in 01-04 Modano was better, but if you bunch them together you get the production alot closer due to Selanne's subpar production while injured.

Go ahead and dismiss everything I say because Selanne is my favorite player

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08-10-2010, 01:27 PM
  #56
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This thread highlights two impressions I've always had about these players:

Modano gets underrated, because people expect even more from him. Any team would gag to have a player with his production and all-round ability, however.

Selšnne's all-round game is underrated, because his offensive game is world-class. He's no defensive forward by any stretch of the imagination, but like all great players, he's not weak in any area of the game (not much of a fighter, granted ).

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08-10-2010, 03:25 PM
  #57
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Well in 2000 we have: Jagr, Bure, Recci, Kariya, Yzerman, Modano, Sakic, Nolan was a beast that year. Throw in goalies like kolzig and belfour and defensemen like pronger and lidstrom, then no selanne really isn't top 10. Besides tony amonte, selanne was prolly the second least effective player to crack the top 10 that year.

1997, 1998 and 1999 are the only years where i would say he was top 5. In 1993 and 1996 he was at the bottom of the top 10.
Well I'd still have likely put him in the top 10 in 2000. Recchi was fine statistically but if you asked a GM who they wanted on their team it would be Selanne from all of them.

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08-10-2010, 03:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I think there's too much statistical navel-gazing going on here. While Selanne was certainly considered one of the game's best forwards, he wasn't regarded quite as highly as the stats would have you believe. Reckoning's THN rankings, while hardly the gospel, serve to reinforce this point.
I do tend to agree with ushvinder for once (let's face it we butt heads a lot here ushvinder ). But in the late 1990s for the truth is after Jagr the idea was that either one of Kariya, Selanne, Forsberg or Lindros (when healthy) were the next best. The truth is Modano's name did NOT ever come up at that level. If you had to twist my arm then yeah I pick Modano over Sundin but that might give you a better idea of what level he was considered to be closer to. Sakic had a few down years by his standards at that time but a healthy Sakic would have beaten out Modano as well. I'm looking beyond stats too. Another thing you have to remember is how Selanne's play didn't suffer when Kariya held out/was injured in 1998. His encore was leading the NHL in goals and being a Hart finalist. Not bad. This was around the time even I had to start questioning who was the better talent between the two Ducks.


Quote:
A lot of these complaints seem to be aesthetic. Modano was really good at picking his spots, as in knowing when to shoot and when to pass. I don't think shooting more would have really been beneficial overall. Modano was tall, not really what I'd consider a "big" player though in the sense that it's usually referred to. Being sound positionally was probably more effective than being a bruiser in his case. And I must say, you're the first person I've heard claim he should have skated more. The Stars' system was not free-flowing and conducive to rink-long rushes in any case.
He was 6'3" 215 lbs. Not small by any means. When I say he should have skated more I was talking about in the context of a game. Yes the Stars did not have a free flowing game. But when Modano gained a step he was gone. I always got the feeling that he should have done that far more frequently. Another poster also mentioned that from 1990-'96 the Stars did not have a defensive system and Modano never hit more than 93 points then either nor did he reach the elite level of the top scorers

Quote:
So I guess we can agree to disgree. While I consider Modano the better of the two, it's by no means a landslide, they are a close comparison. (Or at least I thought so, though the poll is surprisingly one-sided.)
Well it is extremely hard for me to say with a straight face that Selanne's career has been worse than Modano's.

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08-10-2010, 03:44 PM
  #59
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I take Selšnne over Modano but its definitly not a big gap between them. For me, Modano is kind of a "poor mans" Yzerman.

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08-10-2010, 04:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Well I'd still have likely put him in the top 10 in 2000. Recchi was fine statistically but if you asked a GM who they wanted on their team it would be Selanne from all of them.
That's a completely different argument, your basing it more on the reputation of the player. My top 10 is based on who had the better season. Although 2000 was an awkward year, except Jagr and Bure, no one really put up big numbers to stand out.


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Old
08-10-2010, 06:02 PM
  #61
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
THN also had a cover story in 1998 asking who was better: Jagr or Selanne.

I have to say I'm very surprised by that. I remember Jagr as being pretty much unquestioned as the best forward in the game during Lemieux's hiatus. What conclusion did said story come to?

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Originally Posted by DoesURchickenFLY View Post
Jere Lehtinen and his 3 Selke trophies would disagree with you.
Well, I did say arguably. Guy Carbonneau was very good as well. They did give Lehtinen the Selke in 1999, so point taken.

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08-10-2010, 09:00 PM
  #62
Big Phil
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I have to say I'm very surprised by that. I remember Jagr as being pretty much unquestioned as the best forward in the game during Lemieux's hiatus. What conclusion did said story come to?
It was early 1998 if I remember correctly. January, February 1998 maybe. The conclusion was Jagr. Keep in mind, Selanne finished 2nd in points in 1997 to Lemieux (although Jagr was injured 20 games). This was midway through the 1997-'98 season. Selanne is having a great year sans Kariya and it was becoming glaring to everyone that he was truly the better player between the two although in the summer of 1997 I think people would have said Kariya.

Hard to believe but Jagr didn't get a lot of respect at that time. He had Mario before him and during 1998 there was still Francis who many felt fed him a lot of his points. As silly as it sounds the idea among some was that Jagr needed a great center to succeed. I think after he won the Art Ross in 1998 rather comfortably and then won it again in 1999 with one hand tied behind his back did people finally start to give him the respect he deserved. No one was in Jagr's category by then and everyone knew that. But in January 1998? Well, there were still some doubts. Jagr was still deemed to be better though

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08-10-2010, 10:41 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
You include Selanne's injury years 2001-2004, but leave out post lockout?
What? I specifically stated that I gave Selanne the edge due his post-lockout resurgence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Selanne did have a minor knee surgery allready in 2001 and had lost a step due to his bad knees.
That was one of my points - it's sad that Selanne missed time due to injuries, and was also less effective when he played. However, injuries are part of the game.

"Per 82 game" stats have little value since you don't win hockey games by pro-rating injured players' stats - only the results on the ice matter. My point was that Modano, due to his health and consistency, was likely ahead of Selanne between 1993 and 2004.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
If you still insist they were close in production here are their best seasons in adjusted stats.
I said they were close as hockey players at their peak. Obviously you need to look at offense (where Selanne has the edge), but you need to consider other factors (including defensive play playoff performances, where Modano has the edge).

How many regular season points from Selanne would be enough to offset Modano's better defense and strong playoff performances? (Serious question).

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08-10-2010, 11:35 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
This was midway through the 1997-'98 season. Selanne is having a great year sans Kariya and it was becoming glaring to everyone that he was truly the better player between the two although in the summer of 1997 I think people would have said Kariya.
I dunno, I and a sizable majority of hockey afficiniados I've talked to (mostly not Finnish), always Considered Selšnne the better player, more dynamic player, and way more important to the team.
Look at Selšnne stats without kairya, then vice versa. Even in the no offense Sharks, Selšnne was still one of the top (or was he first) in the team with points.
Selšnne defense game has also been always underrated. Sure he's no Selke candidate, but he's never been a total cherrypicker either.

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08-11-2010, 12:23 AM
  #65
Ohashi_Jouzu
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I dunno, I and a sizable majority of hockey afficiniados I've talked to (mostly not Finnish), always Considered Selšnne the better player, more dynamic player, and way more important to the team.
Look at Selšnne stats without kairya, then vice versa. Even in the no offense Sharks, Selšnne was still one of the top (or was he first) in the team with points.
Selšnne defense game has also been always underrated. Sure he's no Selke candidate, but he's never been a total cherrypicker either.
Upon scoring 50 goals in his first full season, Paul Kariya was widely referred to as "the Next Gretzky" by "a sizable majority" of the hockey world and seemed destined to overtake Selanne as top dog on that team (in terms of production, of course... Kariya's leadership and "intangibles" were always regarded more highly than Selanne, right or wrong, even at a young age). The very next year, despite 4 years of age/development difference between them, their production was quite similar. Fault the pundits for translating notions of potential unfairly and prematurely in his favour over Selanne, but that's how it was.

Kariya's big injury brought said comparisons back down with a huge reality check (especially with Selanne leading the league in goals that year, I believe), but even now I'm sure there are a LOT of people who will share the opinion that if you erase the concussion issues we are sitting here in agreement that Kariya should be considered the "better" player of the two. After all, he did start off his first 200 games or so at around a 1.3/1.4 PPG clip (whatever the actual number is, I'm pretty sure it compares quite favourably to whatever Selanne's was for his first 200 games).

It's all hypothetical garbage now, but at the time (up to, and including, the start of the '97/98 season, as brought up by Phil) I have a hard time believing that there was any widespread opinion that Selanne was (nor would be) the superior player of the two. I certainly never read anything of the sort in the sports section of either of the two major newspapers that came to my door every day at the time, nor heard any of it on Sportsdesk/whatever. North American bias? Perhaps. But how many Anaheim games were being televised in Europe/overseas at the time anyways, and who would know better?

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08-11-2010, 12:51 AM
  #66
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Are people just voting about who they'd want right now? The results here are insane ... they should be close-advantage-Modano not runaway-for-Selanne.

I don't like the argument that Modano played for a "stacked" Dallas team and that somehow devalues his numbers; yes that team was stacked, but not the way that term is generally used. A couple of skilled forwards playing with grinders in front of a dominant goalie / defense doesn't necessarily translate to big offensive numbers.
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I remember those 1997-1999 years like they were yesterday. After jagr, the conversation for the next best players was always between forsberg, selanne, kariya and whenever lindros was healthy. Modano wasn't even in the discussion.
Jagr, Forsberg, Selanne, Kariya and healthy Lindros were unquestionably the most situationally dominant skaters of the era. But Dom Hasek? Rob Blake? Chris Chelios? Joe Sakic? Steve Yzerman? Sergei Fedorov? Where are these guys? Your list has loads of YouTube dominance, but it's hard to compare those types of players to Sakic or Modano. It's just apples and oranges. '97-'99 was right smack-dab in the middle of one of the grind-y-est eras in hockey history ... how could Jagr, Forsberg, Selanne and Kariya be the best players in the world?

Modano in his prime went with Yzerman, Fedorov, Forsberg and Sakic as the best all-around forwards in hockey. The eye test says Modano wasn't as good as Fedorov, and the resume pales in comparison to Sakic and Yzerman. But the rest?
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If Modano was capable of being an elite scorer, he would have done so by his 4th, 5th or 6th year. The fact that it took him 10 years to finally crack the bottom end of the top 10 shows that he was never going to be an elite scorer like selanne was.
Nobody's arguing that Modano was a more elite scorer; just a better all-around player.

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08-11-2010, 01:21 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It was early 1998 if I remember correctly. January, February 1998 maybe. The conclusion was Jagr. Keep in mind, Selanne finished 2nd in points in 1997 to Lemieux (although Jagr was injured 20 games). This was midway through the 1997-'98 season. Selanne is having a great year sans Kariya and it was becoming glaring to everyone that he was truly the better player between the two although in the summer of 1997 I think people would have said Kariya.

Hard to believe but Jagr didn't get a lot of respect at that time. He had Mario before him and during 1998 there was still Francis who many felt fed him a lot of his points. As silly as it sounds the idea among some was that Jagr needed a great center to succeed. I think after he won the Art Ross in 1998 rather comfortably and then won it again in 1999 with one hand tied behind his back did people finally start to give him the respect he deserved. No one was in Jagr's category by then and everyone knew that. But in January 1998? Well, there were still some doubts. Jagr was still deemed to be better though
Pretty much how I read it at the time. Selanne finished just short of taking the 1st Team All-Star spot from Jagr as well (202-195). Would've liked to have seen the Hart and All-Star results if the Mighty Ducks were a playoff team, or if Selanne hadn't missed 9 games.

I think his 1996-97 and 1998-99 seasons that book-ended the Hart nomination are/were overlooked. Second in scoring in both years, and second and first in goals respectively (would've been first in three straight years if not for missing a few games in 1997).

The guy after Jagr and Hasek as I saw it until his leg started to get the better of him in 1999-2000, and Modano never kept that type of company at his peak, let alone challenged their crowns.

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08-11-2010, 02:18 AM
  #68
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I'd take Modano, although both are highly rated in my mind. Modano was a guy you could build a team around, I never got that feeling from Selanne. Teemu was certainly the more dynamic of the two but Modano was a very good two way player through the dead puck era and he has no problem posting 80 points while being extremely dependable in his own end.

I like this poll, though, it's a very good comparison in terms of value, not so much role's, but in terms of value, I think both of these guy's hit similar peaks for what they provided. I'm just going on what I would have wanted for the Sabre's in the late 90s and early 2000's and that would have been Modano by a hair...not that we could have gotten either....

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08-11-2010, 11:23 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
What? I
That was one of my points - it's sad that Selanne missed time due to injuries, and was also less effective when he played. However, injuries are part of the game.

"Per 82 game" stats have little value since you don't win hockey games by pro-rating injured players' stats - only the results on the ice matter. My point was that Modano, due to his health and consistency, was likely ahead of Selanne between 1993 and 2004.
I'm saying that 93-04 is a stupid time period since it clearly favors Modano since Selanne was playing injured 01-04. Even if he wasn't 11 years as a time period would still be too long to make any relevant argument. Also why the hell would you leave out the 92-93 season?

Why are you saying that per 82gp stats have little value? Selanne played four games more during 92-01 so it actually gives Modano a slight advantage.

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08-11-2010, 12:01 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Upon scoring 50 goals in his first full season, Paul Kariya was widely referred to as "the Next Gretzky" by "a sizable majority" of the hockey world and seemed destined to overtake Selanne as top dog on that team (in terms of production, of course... Kariya's leadership and "intangibles" were always regarded more highly than Selanne, right or wrong, even at a young age). The very next year, despite 4 years of age/development difference between them, their production was quite similar. Fault the pundits for translating notions of potential unfairly and prematurely in his favour over Selanne, but that's how it was.
Not taking anything away from Kariya, but he did score 21 goals of his 50 goals in the last 28 games of the season which he played with Selanne and "only" 29 goals in the first 54 games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Kariya's big injury brought said comparisons back down with a huge reality check (especially with Selanne leading the league in goals that year, I believe), but even now I'm sure there are a LOT of people who will share the opinion that if you erase the concussion issues we are sitting here in agreement that Kariya should be considered the "better" player of the two. After all, he did start off his first 200 games or so at around a 1.3/1.4 PPG clip (whatever the actual number is, I'm pretty sure it compares quite favourably to whatever Selanne's was for his first 200 games).
Selanne first 200 games 1.31 ppg
Kariya first 200 games 1.25 ppg

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08-11-2010, 12:33 PM
  #71
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Selanne is gonna win on paper , still , I'll take Modano on my team before him 10 times out of 10.

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08-11-2010, 12:44 PM
  #72
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Not taking anything away from Kariya, but he did score 21 goals of his 50 goals in the last 28 games of the season which he played with Selanne and "only" 29 goals in the first 54 games.
Fair enough, and I see what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Selanne first 200 games 1.31 ppg
Kariya first 200 games 1.25 ppg
So... compares very favourably.

I should note that "200" was just an estimate of how many games Kariya had played up until the Big Bang. Whatever the actual # is, that's what I meant to use (edit: just broke out the calculator... it's 220 games -> 1.26 PPG). Selanne's career to that exact same point (Feb. 1st/98), for argument's sake, was 391 games, 1.31 PPG. Very close indeed, and it must be considered that many probably thought they had seen the best from Selanne (27), and perhaps they had, while Kariya(23) was seen as still having his best years ahead of him and boundless potential (especially, it must be said, with a linemate like Selanne).

Again, I'm not arguing who IS/WAS better between Kariya and Selanne. I'm providing counter-arguments to the notion that Selanne was "widely recognized" as the better of the two from day 1 (i.e. "always", as you put it, I believe).

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08-11-2010, 01:00 PM
  #73
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I remember reading about Paul Kariya before he was drafted and he was touted as being a sort of poor man's Gretzky as far as offensive vision was concerned.. but with some physical abilities that Gretzky did not have. For example Kariya's great skating speed.

I think the previous posters are correct in that at the time before his injury, Kariya was seen to still be improving while Selanne having started at a later age than Kariya was seen as having maybe hit the plateau.

I also don't remember Selanne being in the mix for being possibly the best player in the world at any time. Hasek and Jagr/Lemieux were all well ahead of him in that debate. Lindros as well (although he faded badly towards the end). The only claim Selanne has realistically is as a sniper.. that is one thing he definitely was tops in or close to it during the late 90s.

I have to agree though that Selanne was probably closer to those guys being considered than Modano ever was..

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08-11-2010, 02:47 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
Jagr, Forsberg, Selanne, Kariya and healthy Lindros were unquestionably the most situationally dominant skaters of the era. But Dom Hasek? Rob Blake? Chris Chelios? Joe Sakic? Steve Yzerman? Sergei Fedorov? Where are these guys? Your list has loads of YouTube dominance, but it's hard to compare those types of players to Sakic or Modano. It's just apples and oranges. '97-'99 was right smack-dab in the middle of one of the grind-y-est eras in hockey history ... how could Jagr, Forsberg, Selanne and Kariya be the best players in the world?

Modano in his prime went with Yzerman, Fedorov, Forsberg and Sakic as the best all-around forwards in hockey. The eye test says Modano wasn't as good as Fedorov, and the resume pales in comparison to Sakic and Yzerman. But the rest?Nobody's arguing that Modano was a more elite scorer; just a better all-around player.
Easy. The "grindy" players were Leclair, Shanahan, Tkachuk etc. They weren't the best in the world and everyone knew it then and should know it now. Even in the clutch and grab era Jagr had to contend with the same holding as Shanahan did. Who do you think was faster? Selanne or Leclair? There's your reason. Even in the dead puck era the faster guys with more skill produced more and were still the more dangerous players

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08-11-2010, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
I'm saying that 93-04 is a stupid time period since it clearly favors Modano since Selanne was playing injured 01-04. Even if he wasn't 11 years as a time period would still be too long to make any relevant argument.
For the second time: I clearly stated that Selanne is the better player due to his post-lockout resurgence.

If I wanted to look at Selanne's entire career, we'd need to look at the pre-lockout and post-lockout portion. I gave post-lockout performance to Selanne without hesitation, and over the remainder of their careers I've argued that it's very close (with Modano likely having the edge).

In other words: I discussed 1993-2004, and post-lockout. Overall that discussion is complete because it covers Selanne's entire NHL career.

I'm not sure what you wanted me to do, exclude some of Selanne's years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Also why the hell would you leave out the 92-93 season?
1. Relax.

2. The convention here is to refer to the 1992-1993 season as "1993". This upcoming season will be referred to as the "2011" season. My comparison was "1993-2004" which means all seasons from 1992-93 to 2003-04.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Why are you saying that per 82gp stats have little value? Selanne played four games more during 92-01 so it actually gives Modano a slight advantage.
It's my position that per-82 game stats have little value because you don't win hockey games by extrapolating the statistics of injured players. Only actual, on-ice contributions contribute to winning hockey games.

It doesn't matter if the per-82 games stats make things closer for Modano, it not an argument I would use.

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