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Can Anyone Explain How Redden Was a Plus/Minus Leader in 2009/10?

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Old
08-11-2010, 08:49 PM
  #76
Tawnos
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
You don't delve into the player match-ups nearly enough to understand the importance of +/- as it related to any individual player... You can't make inferences or generalizations about their play based on their +/- without looking at who they're often playing with on the ice, and who they're often playing again (with regards to line match ups)...
+/- is about how a player performs when he's on the ice, no matter who he's up against. If he is a plus defenseman when he's asked to play mostly against the other team's bottom 6, isn't he playing his role well, or at least adequately? I mean, think about how poorly it would reflect if he was a MINUS player against the other team's bottom 6. To me, this particular statistic bears out the notion that Redden is still an NHL caliber defenseman, albeit a 3rd pair one.

My opinion is that I agree that if he was asked to play against the opposition's top 6 on a regular basis, he would be a minus. However, I can't prove that since the data just simply doesn't exist.

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08-11-2010, 08:54 PM
  #77
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Sorry you're offended, Antny, but when there are 500 threads saying that Redden must go, it becomes tiresome to those of us that understand that Redden was not the problem with the Rangers last year. If you flipped Redden for Pronger last year, they were still going nowhere.

Endlessly focusing on Redden misses the point of what the disease is, and it ain't him.

Of course DelZotto will get better and he is already a good offensive dman. I was just trying to put the issue of Redden hurting the Rangers in its true perspective. He didn't help. He didn't hurt. He was a non-factor.

He is singled out for salary reasons only, not on-ice performance. Sometimes it seems like fans want him to turn in his salary, like they would ever consider doing something like that.

Remember this truism, fans turn on defensemen like clockwork, but forwards go relatively unscathed, while most fanbases like their goaltending.
why was he scratched for 2 games? it wasn't because he didn't hurt the team. overall he sucks. is he the root of the problem no, but his contract is. bottom line is he knows how much money he is making and he hasn't earned a dime of it. the most life he ever showed on the rangers was when he had words with tortorella (for being scratched). every ranger fan has a right to be pissed at him. if u dont like the thread or the "ilk" do everyone a favor and dont post anything.

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08-11-2010, 09:07 PM
  #78
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Malik is a career +120ish.

That stat is worth as much as a federal reserve note.

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08-11-2010, 09:14 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
+/- is about how a player performs when he's on the ice, no matter who he's up against.
Not even talking about Redden or the Rangers here.. I just said that generally about the statistic and evaluating it's implications... It's not just a measure of how well the player in question performs, but also how the players he's frequently paired together with on the ice are performing as well..... A forward who scores a ton of goals or a goaltender who lets in a lot of pucks can significantly impact your +/- and vice versa...

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08-11-2010, 09:15 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
why was he scratched for 2 games? it wasn't because he didn't hurt the team. overall he sucks. is he the root of the problem no, but his contract is. bottom line is he knows how much money he is making and he hasn't earned a dime of it. the most life he ever showed on the rangers was when he had words with tortorella (for being scratched). every ranger fan has a right to be pissed at him. if u dont like the thread or the "ilk" do everyone a favor and dont post anything.
Firstly, I'll post wherever I want, unless someone with power prevents me from doing so. You are not that person.

Secondly, sadly, you still don't get it. Who gave him the contract? You're mad at the wrong guy, but maybe the point is that some people will never get it.

Keep booing the guy who gets the contract from the idiot instead of the idiot. Then again, no matter what fans do, it won't matter. The even bigger idiot just tried to re-employ Isaih Thomas, so it's all pretty hopeless at the top. Why should I expect the bottom to be any better?

Some great players have been scratched for various reasons through the years. Does that mean that Redden is great? Of course not, but I felt the need to guide you on the logical path you are avoiding for some reason and to help you understand that a+b does not always equal c.

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08-11-2010, 09:16 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by pwoz View Post
Malik is a career +120ish.

That stat is worth as much as a federal reserve note.
Yet fans cheered Purinton while they booed Malik. Go figure.

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08-11-2010, 09:31 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Firstly, I'll post wherever I want, unless someone with power prevents me from doing so. You are not that person.

Secondly, sadly, you still don't get it. Who gave him the contract? You're mad at the wrong guy, but maybe the point is that some people will never get it.

Keep booing the guy who gets the contract from the idiot instead of the idiot. Then again, no matter what fans do, it won't matter. The even bigger idiot just tried to re-employ Isaih Thomas, so it's all pretty hopeless at the top. Why should I expect the bottom to be any better?

Some great players have been scratched for various reasons through the years. Does that mean that Redden is great? Of course not, but I felt the need to guide you on the logical path you are avoiding for some reason and to help you understand that a+b does not always equal c.
enough of this ilk.

your talking to someone that completly understands that sather is the problem and yes i want sather off the team much more than i want redden and no i dont hate redden because he took the money. i hate him because he is getting the money and not earning it. who is the one performing sather or redden?

redden being scratched means he's not great? **** i didn't know that. where the **** have i been? point is, if tortarella thinks the guy's performace calls for him to be scratched for 2 games i dont think you have any right to come on here and call other fans who think he shouldn't play either ignorant. i would say just about everybody that posts here knows sather was the idiot that gave him the money but that doesn't mean somebody cant be disgusted with his performance.


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Old
08-11-2010, 09:36 PM
  #83
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Yet fans cheered Purinton while they booed Malik. Go figure.
no body cheered purinton unless he got into a fight, other than that everyone knew he sucked and was a psyco.

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08-11-2010, 10:32 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
You don't delve into the player match-ups nearly enough to understand the importance of +/- as it related to any individual player... You can't make inferences or generalizations about their play based on their +/- without looking at who they're often playing with on the ice, and who they're often playing again (with regards to line match ups)...
True, but taking into account what you just said... Del Zotto, generally, played against the opposing teams weakest competition and was a -20. The majority of his points, which came on the PP, don't reflect in the +/- stat. Than factor in that a lot of his time during the course of a game took place on power plays. Meaning he was at even strength even LESS than the other defense men. Therefore, that -20 at even strength against the opposing teams weaker competition, with less even strength ice time than the other defense men, is pretty bad and I do think his +/- reflects his defensive play accurately.

In example, Marc Staal was a +11 and he played against the other teams top players over and over again (Ovechkin, Crosby, Kovalchuk, etc.). He doesn't get much if any power play time so the majority of his ice time is at even strength or the penalty kill (granted the PK doesn't reflect in the +/- stat) BUT with significant more ice time than Del Zotto it is safe to say he had much more ES ice time. Signifying that he was vastly superior to Del Zotto defensively. Being a +11 while playing 22-24 minutes a game against the other teams top forwards signifies quality defense being brought to the table on a routine basis by Staal. Again, it accurately reflects his defensive play.

Redden played with Gilroy for a large chunk of the season and while they both received a lot of flack both of them had better +/- than a lot of players on the team. Redden generally faced middle of the line competition. He simply played more responsible defensive hockey than Del Zotto and probably, for at least the first half of the season, Rozsival. Rozsival wound up having a much better second half than Redden though.

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Old
08-12-2010, 01:06 PM
  #85
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There were lots of purinton jerseys in the stands at every game. They were fans of his and probably most thought him better than malik. They were idiots.
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no body cheered purinton unless he got into a fight, other than that everyone knew he sucked and was a psyco.

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08-12-2010, 03:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
There were lots of purinton jerseys in the stands at every game. They were fans of his and probably most thought him better than malik. They were idiots.
how much is a lot of purinton jerseys? and you assuming the same people booed malik has nothing to do with the fact that redden sucks ass.

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08-12-2010, 07:14 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
how much is a lot of purinton jerseys? and you assuming the same people booed malik has nothing to do with the fact that redden sucks ass.
Unscientifically, I would guess that his jersey was 3rd or 4th most popular at home games. I don't think I ever saw a Malik or Redden jersey. Some fans are idiots, just like some everythings are idiots. It's a matter of probability.

I didn't understand your second point.

If Redden was giving away the puck all of the time (same thing I always heard about Malik), why weren't both of them horrible minus players? This a real straight-forward question that the bashers can't come to terms with. The best they usually come up with is luck. It can't always be luck. My point here isn't about Redden, specifically.

If Redden sucks ass, why don't they eat his contract? I used to read here that Strudwick was a real good dman to have. To think that he was more effective than even a bad Redden is comical.

Plus-minus isn't enough by itself to judge a player's performance, but it's a relative indicator within a team. Some players consistently operate at a minus while others consistently operate at a plus. It can't always be a coincidence.

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08-12-2010, 10:49 PM
  #88
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Unscientifically, I would guess that his jersey was 3rd or 4th most popular at home games. I don't think I ever saw a Malik or Redden jersey. Some fans are idiots, just like some everythings are idiots. It's a matter of probability.

I didn't understand your second point.

If Redden was giving away the puck all of the time (same thing I always heard about Malik), why weren't both of them horrible minus players? This a real straight-forward question that the bashers can't come to terms with. The best they usually come up with is luck. It can't always be luck. My point here isn't about Redden, specifically.

If Redden sucks ass, why don't they eat his contract? I used to read here that Strudwick was a real good dman to have. To think that he was more effective than even a bad Redden is comical.

Plus-minus isn't enough by itself to judge a player's performance, but it's a relative indicator within a team. Some players consistently operate at a minus while others consistently operate at a plus. It can't always be a coincidence.
highly highly doubtful that purintons jerseys was that popular but who cares.

you dont have to give the puck away to be a minus player. you also dont have to do too much to be a plus player. substitute me for malik and im sure i would have been a plus player too. your right +/- isnt enough to judge a players performance, which explains why no one cares about malik or reddens +/- because clearly redden is terrible a borderline 6th dman and when the fans turned on malik he was struggling bad. i was a malik supporter, i remember 1 opening night he was getting booed and had something like 3 or 4 points. i hated it, but throughout that season the guy struggled to the point where the fans hated him, it happens. if jeter can get booed in new york anyone can get booed and hated.

back to redden, i dont care what his +/- is he is as you put it a non factor. and if hes making 6.5 and being a non factor on the team he sucks.

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08-12-2010, 11:24 PM
  #89
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Because maybe he's not as bad as everyone here seems to think. He's no where near worth 6.5 million but he's still an NHL caliber player.
This. I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I'd much rather have Redden than Rozy, at least Redden can stake. Rozy is slower than Malik now.

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08-13-2010, 06:46 AM
  #90
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Because too many self-professed fans don't understand the game. Was Redden real good? No. Was he real bad? No. He offered little, but almost never hurt the team. If he was a 1 million-dollar dman, he would be a non-entity around here. And it's not his fault that the moron gave him that much.

DelZotto has a chance to be outstanding, but when he wasn't on the Power Play he was far worse than Redden last year. Presumably that will change as he matures. Defensemen usually stink in the beginning.
While I respect your assessment, it makes no mention of the fact that Redden routinely plays against other teams 3rd and 4th lines now, hes average at best and continuing to decline

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08-13-2010, 10:03 AM
  #91
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If you think you could be a plis player in the nhl undet any circumstance you are as nuts as tjey come. Tough typing on thesr dang phones.
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highly highly doubtful that purintons jerseys was that popular but who cares.

you dont have to give the puck away to be a minus player. you also dont have to do too much to be a plus player. substitute me for malik and im sure i would have been a plus player too. your right +/- isnt enough to judge a players performance, which explains why no one cares about malik or reddens +/- because clearly redden is terrible a borderline 6th dman and when the fans turned on malik he was struggling bad. i was a malik supporter, i remember 1 opening night he was getting booed and had something like 3 or 4 points. i hated it, but throughout that season the guy struggled to the point where the fans hated him, it happens. if jeter can get booed in new york anyone can get booed and hated.

back to redden, i dont care what his +/- is he is as you put it a non factor. and if hes making 6.5 and being a non factor on the team he sucks.

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08-13-2010, 04:05 PM
  #92
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If you think you could be a plis player in the nhl undet any circumstance you are as nuts as tjey come. Tough typing on thesr dang phones.
jagr would have gotten me good stats

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