HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Selänne vs Francis

View Poll Results: ?
Selänne 55 54.46%
Francis 39 38.61%
Even 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-12-2010, 07:37 AM
  #26
Chased By Trolls
Generational Talent
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Tampere, Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 315
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Plus, outside his one year in WIN he wasn't the top player either (that was Kariya).
So much fail in one short sentence, very impressive.

Chased By Trolls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 07:43 AM
  #27
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,595
vCash: 500
Says a Finn...

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 07:52 AM
  #28
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Says a Finn...
You might want to check out Selanne's year when he won the Rocket. Kariya played what 22 games that year. After that Selanne had Rucchin, Sandstrom, Cullen, Scott Pronger etc. in his support cast.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 07:57 AM
  #29
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
The thing about Francis is he was so quiet.

He wasn't flashy like the..Finnish Flash.

I read a quote about him when he was inducted I think.. and the interviewer asked him how he would describe his game.

Francis said something along the lines of leaving it all out there every game and being a blue collar type worker.. but hopefully with white collar results.

I think that sums him up well. I mean 15 seasons of 75+ points to go with his leadership and two-way play is an amazing career.

You can say he played with Mario or Jagr but for large amounts of his career he didn't. And he was a 100 point man in Hartford too.

To me he is like a better version of Sundin. Sort of the same level of production you can pencil him in for every year. (Sundin being the better goal scorer and Francis the better playmaker obviously) But add in leadership and better two way play.

I have to give Selanne the nod for peak but for career it isn't close for me.. Francis.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 07:59 AM
  #30
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,595
vCash: 500
In Selanne's best years, I'd see his importance as:

92-93 #1 in Winnipeg
95-96 behind Kariya
96-97 behind Kariya
97-98 #1 due to Kariya's injury
98-99 behind Kariya
99-00 behind Kariya
05-06 #1 among forwards, behind Niedermayer overall
06-07 #1 among forwards, behind Niedermayer and Pronger overall

Half the time in his peak he wasn't the top forward on his team. And let's not even go into his worse seasons.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 08:04 AM
  #31
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
In Selanne's best years, I'd see his importance as:

92-93 #1 in Winnipeg
95-96 behind Kariya
96-97 behind Kariya
97-98 #1 due to Kariya's injury
98-99 behind Kariya
99-00 behind Kariya
05-06 #1 among forwards, behind Niedermayer overall
06-07 #1 among forwards, behind Niedermayer and Pronger overall

Half the time in his peak he wasn't the top forward on his team. And let's not even go into his worse seasons.
Selanne did outscore Kariya in 96-97 and 98-99, and was only one point behind him in 99-00. I always viewed the two players as equals when they played together.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 08:07 AM
  #32
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Selanne did outscore Kariya in 96-97 and 98-99, and was only one point behind him in 99-00. I always viewed the two players as equals when they played together.
I really wish they had a good center at the time.. would have loved to see what they could do healthy and with a good playmaking pivot.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 09:14 AM
  #33
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Selanne did outscore Kariya in 96-97 and 98-99, and was only one point behind him in 99-00. I always viewed the two players as equals when they played together.
96-97 - over a minute less ATOI, less PPG
98-99 - 3 minutes less ATOI
99-00 - nearly 2 minutes less ATOI, less PPG

Keep in mind we're talking overall impact on team, not just scoring.

BTW Francis outscored Jagr in 92-93, was close in 93-94, not that far off in 94-95 and close in 96-97 (with much worse PPG though). He was ahead of Jagr in ATOI in all seasons but 97-98. Saying that Jagr made Francis on one hand while considering Selanne Kariya's equal on the other is ridiculous.

Not to mention that Francis murders Selanne in playoffs.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 09:35 AM
  #34
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
96-97 - over a minute less ATOI, less PPG
98-99 - 3 minutes less ATOI
99-00 - nearly 2 minutes less ATOI, less PPG

Keep in mind we're talking overall impact on team, not just scoring.
I'm kind of confused here. Which one saw fewer minutes than the other?

As for overall impact, did either one really bring much more than scoring?

Quote:
BTW Francis outscored Jagr in 92-93, was close in 93-94, not that far off in 94-95 and close in 96-97 (with much worse PPG though). He was ahead of Jagr in ATOI in all seasons but 97-98. Saying that Jagr made Francis on one hand while considering Selanne Kariya's equal on the other is ridiculous.

Not to mention that Francis murders Selanne in playoffs.
Nobody is saying that Jagr made Francis; just that Francis wasn't good enough offensively to be a consistent top 10 scorer without Jagr on his line. I think the 9th, 11th, and 12th place finishes Francis had in Hartford and Carolina showed what he was capable of without Jagr.

Jaromir Jagr won his first Art Ross at the age of 22 in 94-95. That's the first year he really became a superstar on his own; it's also the first time Francis (at age 30) was top 10 in points. Anyone who actually watched them from this point on could see who the superstar on the line was an who the excellent complimentary player.

As for the playoffs, Francis definitely has the advantage, but to be fair to Selanne, he never had the benefit of playing on a good team in his prime.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 09:46 AM
  #35
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,595
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm kind of confused here. Which one saw fewer minutes than the other?

As for overall impact, did either one really bring much more than scoring?
Selanne saw fewer minutes. Selanne played much less shorthanded. Kariya was also the captain, not Selanne.

Quote:
Nobody is saying that Jagr made Francis; just that Francis wasn't good enough offensively to be a consistent top 10 scorer without Jagr on his line. I think the 9th, 11th, and 12th place finishes Francis had in Hartford and Carolina showed what he was capable of without Jagr.

Jaromir Jagr won his first Art Ross at the age of 22 in 94-95. That's the first year he really became a superstar on his own; it's also the first time Francis (at age 30) was top 10 in points. Anyone who actually watched them from this point on could see who the superstar on the line was an who the excellent complimentary player.

As for the playoffs, Francis definitely has the advantage, but to be fair to Selanne, he never had the benefit of playing on a good team in his prime.
Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.

Funny bonus playoff fact: Out of 8 seasons together, Francis outscored Jagr in playoffs four times, and always outscored him when the Pens made it past round 1. Selanne never outscored Kariya (granted, just two playofss together).


Last edited by MadArcand: 08-12-2010 at 09:53 AM.
MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 10:54 AM
  #36
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,231
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Says a Finn...
Says a Hartford-fan...

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 12:35 PM
  #37
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,272
vCash: 500
despite the recent resurgences of "Francis was never really that special" and "Selanne is underrated and a possible top-120 player", I am surprised to see Francis losing this one. Like MadArcand, with intangibles and defense and integrating into a team taken into consideration, I don't see how Selanne contributed more to his team's successes than Francis.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 12:45 PM
  #38
N O T O R I O U S
╱█¯█¯██¯█★█¯██¯█¯█╲
 
N O T O R I O U S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ╱Kurdistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,692
vCash: 0
Selänne

N O T O R I O U S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 12:46 PM
  #39
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
It is probably just because Selanne is still playing and Francis has been gone 5 years now...

People keep citing Selanne's scoring over Francis but that was only one facet of the game Francis played. It is basically all there is to talk about with Selanne however.

And Selanne doesn't distance himself from a guy with 15 seasons of over 75 points nearly enough to make up for the rest of what Ronnie Franchise brings to the table on a nightly basis.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 12:51 PM
  #40
oilersfan11
Registered User
 
oilersfan11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,432
vCash: 50
Teemu Selanne

oilersfan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 01:10 PM
  #41
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,071
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Selanne saw fewer minutes. Selanne played much less shorthanded. Kariya was also the captain, not Selanne.


Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.

Funny bonus playoff fact: Out of 8 seasons together, Francis outscored Jagr in playoffs four times, and always outscored him when the Pens made it past round 1. Selanne never outscored Kariya (granted, just two playofss together).
Funny bonus playoff fact: Francis has never really produced in the playoffs before or after getting Jagr as a regular linemate

Before Jagr as a linemate 56gp 39pts 0.7ppg (Despite most of the season were in the 80s)
With Jagr 73gp 83pts 1.13ppg
After Jagr 41gp 21 pts 0.51ppg

Nice touch with Selanne never outscoring Kariya in the playoffs:

96-97
Selanne 7g 3a
Kariya 7g 6a

98-99
Selanne 2g 2a
Kariya 1g 3a


Last edited by jepjepjoo: 08-12-2010 at 01:18 PM.
jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 01:28 PM
  #42
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Funny bonus playoff fact: Francis has never really produced in the playoffs before or after getting Jagr as a regular linemate

Before Jagr as a linemate 56gp 39pts 0.7ppg (Despite most of the season were in the 80s)
With Jagr 73gp 83pts 1.13ppg
After Jagr 41gp 21 pts 0.51ppg
Yes cause Hartford was a playoff powerhouse during those days before Pittsburgh, and a 35+ year old Francis should have been lighting it up in Carolina.

We excuse Selanne for his poor teams in his early prime but then we try to dock Francis for it?

Francis had a better playoff at 38 years old on a losing team than Selanne did in his best playoff season on a cup winner coming off a 48 goal regular season.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 02:20 PM
  #43
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,071
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
We excuse Selanne for his poor teams in his early prime but then we try to dock Francis for it?
Selanne in playoffs in his prime (22-30 years old): 21gp 13g 7a. Atleast he scored on those poor teams.

Quote:
Francis had a better playoff at 38 years old on a losing team than Selanne did in his best playoff season on a cup winner coming off a 48 goal regular season.
"Francis at 38 had..." Selanne was 37 years old in 07 so it's not like he was a young man either and he scored 15 points in 21 games(14 in 16 in 06). Francis scored 16 in 23 in 02.

I have no doubt that if Selanne had the chance to play more than 21 playoff games in his prime, He would have better playoff stats than Francis.

Quote:
Yes cause Hartford was a playoff powerhouse during those days before Pittsburgh
Even if Hartford wasn't a powerhouse, the 5 times Hartford made the playoffs Francis was 11th, 3rd, 2nd, 7th and 2nd in team playoff scoring which doesn't exactly scream "awesome playoff player" either.

edit. And it's not like Francis was an inexpirienced rookie in those Hartford playoff years. He played his first playoffs in his 5th season. In 85-86 he had 1.45ppg in the regular season and posted 1g 2a in 10gp in the playoffs.


Last edited by jepjepjoo: 08-12-2010 at 02:31 PM.
jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 02:24 PM
  #44
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Selanne was 37 years
He turned 37 after the season was over.

Quote:
I have no doubt that if Selanne had the chance to play more than 21 playoff games in his prime, He would have better playoff stats than Francis.
Maybe he would have.. maybe he wouldn't have. The reality is - he didn't.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 02:35 PM
  #45
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,071
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Maybe he would have.. maybe he wouldn't have. The reality is - he didn't.
The reality also is that Francis never was anything special in the playoffs without Jagr. He was a regular letdown in Hartford.

jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 02:37 PM
  #46
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
The reality also is that Francis never was anything special in the playoffs without Jagr. He was a regular letdown in Hartford.
And by that measurement I guess Teemu was a letdown his entire career because half the time he didn't make the playoffs at all, and the other half of the time he was very mediocre by his standards?

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 03:13 PM
  #47
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,071
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.
Oh really? Selanne has 6 top10 goal scoring finishes and 2 (two) of them came with Kariya. 98-99 and 96-97(Kariya 69gp)

jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 03:30 PM
  #48
jepjepjoo
Registered User
 
jepjepjoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,071
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
And by that measurement I guess Teemu was a letdown his entire career because half the time he didn't make the playoffs at all, and the other half of the time he was very mediocre by his standards?
Under 30 years old(prime):

1992-93 6gp 4g 2a 6pts
1996-97 11gp 7g 3a 10pts (There's Paul Kariya & Teemu Selanne then there's Brian Bellows & Joe Sacco... Pretty easy to shut down)
1998-99 4gp 2g 2a 4pts

21 gp 13g 7a 20pts (51 goals per 82gp)

30-33 yo (The knee years)

00-01 6gp 0g 2a 2pts (He played with a broken wrist and a broken thumb and had a minor knee surgery a month before the playoffs to remove a loose ligament)
01-02 12gp 5g 3a 8pts (the knee + the defensive system of San Jose)
03-04 10gp 0g 3a 3pts (The knee was so bad that he was thinking about ending his career. He played on the 3rd and 4th lines)

28gp 5g 7a 12pts

35-36 yo (The comeback)

05-06 16gp 6g 8a 14pts (1st in pts)
06-07 21gp 5g 10a 15pts (2nd in pts)

37gp 11g 18a 29pts (most by any Duck during the 2 year period by 5 points)

37-39 yo (Back from retirement)

07-08 6gp 2g 2a 4pts (The whole team sucked. Getzlaf and Pronger had 5pts. Selanne played with Weight who had 1 assist)
08-09 13gp 4g 2a 6pts (There's not much you can do if your linemates are Eric Christensen and Andrew Ebbett)

19gp 6g 4a 10pts

Selanne got to play 21 playoff games in his prime.

jepjepjoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 03:34 PM
  #49
zeus3007*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 13,228
vCash: 500
Selanne is a better scorer, but Francis saw the game at a different level I think. Better playmaker, defensive player, and leader.

zeus3007* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-12-2010, 03:55 PM
  #50
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,464
vCash: 500
Meh this poll could go either way. However, someone should make a poll comparing selanne to either forsberg or adam oates. I wanna see if jepjepjoo still picks selanne, lol he must be his son or something.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.