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Brooks "Sean Avery out of the picture?", "What if Wade Redden"...

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Old
08-12-2010, 05:59 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
But the thing is that once the league came down hard on him about the pre-game stuff he cut it out.

The goalie interference thing isn't a good example because a penalty is a penalty. And that's the point. If he commits a penalty then call him for it, but if he doesn't he shouldn't be getting the gate just because he's Sean Avery.

The league can sit there and say they assess the referees performances and stuff but we all know that no official is getting criticized for a phantom call on Avery. The league should be embarrassed by some of the calls on him last year that didn't exist. The guy takes his fair share of actual penalties so there's no need to make them up.

You're singling out Avery on something that's a legitimate rule for everyone. It's not an Avery rule. It's goalie interference. If he does it then fine, call him for it. But when he's getting mauled by opponents and tossed around and the call should be on them for interference or roughing, and he ends up with a call, it's BS. And there's nothing he can do about that stuff. He got hosed last year. Big time.
Dude you're not following what I'm saying, again....

It doesn't matter if Avery is right or wrong... The league officials and the referees hold all the cards here... It really doesn't matter if you or I think he had bad calls made against him... The way he has approached the game in the past has caused his play to be under constant scrutiny by the league and refs... He plays under a microscope.... The goaltender interference is the perfect example... If a collision happens and it's 50/50 as to whether it was interference or a legitimate play, guess what, Avery's getting a penalty... If Chris Drury makes that same play, maybe it's not a penalty... Reputations inevitably influence how the officials react to plays that transpire, that's always been part of the game and always will be... Reputations influence when referees call penalties, they influence what types of penalties they hand out, and they also influence the duration and frequency of suspensions that the league dishes out...

My whole post above, which you misinterpreted, is that he's going to have to be smart and modify his game when it comes to making contact with goaltenders and on other issues that the league is communicating they won't tolerate (like he had to with the pre-game skirmishes)... He's NEVER going to get the benefit of the doubt or any leeway in that situation... So he needs to be mindful that he will get penalized and hurt his team if he tries to flirt that boundary moving forward... Sean has to adapt and be smart about how he conducts business moving forward.... (Now don't twist this post into something I didn't say or allege)


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08-12-2010, 06:47 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Dude you're not following what I'm saying, again....

It doesn't matter if Avery is right or wrong... The league officials and the referees hold all the cards here... It really doesn't matter if you or I think he had bad calls made against him... The way he has approached the game in the past has caused his play to be under constant scrutiny by the league and refs... He plays under a microscope.... The goaltender interference is the perfect example... If a collision happens and it's 50/50 as to whether it was interference or a legitimate play, guess what, Avery's getting a penalty... If Chris Drury makes that same play, maybe it's not a penalty... Reputations inevitably influence how the officials react to plays that transpire, that's always been part of the game and always will be... Reputations influence when referees call penalties, they influence what types of penalties they hand out, and they also influence the duration and frequency of suspensions that the league dishes out...

My whole post above, which you misinterpreted, is that he's going to have to be smart and modify his game when it comes to making contact with goaltenders and on other issues that the league is communicating they won't tolerate (like he had to with the pre-game skirmishes)... He's NEVER going to get the benefit of the doubt or any leeway in that situation... So he needs to be mindful that he will get penalized and hurt his team if he tries to flirt that boundary moving forward... Sean has to adapt and be smart about how he conducts business moving forward.... (Now don't twist this post into something I didn't say or allege)

That's fine and I agree. But when that happens and he stops so as not to futher hurt his team, I don't want to hear you on here saying how he's ineffective.

I'm not arguing the reality of the situation. What I'm saying is that it's BS and if that's how things are you can't hold Sean at complete fault for it.

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08-12-2010, 06:56 PM
  #253
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That's fine and I agree. But when that happens and he stops so as not to futher hurt his team, I don't want to hear you on here saying how he's ineffective.
I already stated that I believe he can be an effective player without bumping the goaltenders... He can still trash talk all he wants, throw hard hits into the boards when fore-checking, and play in the crease area and try to poke home rebounds, and most important, try to score goals and set up his linemates... None of that involves doing anything the refs can throw him under the bus for...He has done this effectively in the past without a problem... The NJ playoff series (minus the screening business in Game 3) was the perfect example of how he can effectively play his game without hurting the team...

Quote:
What I'm saying is that it's BS and if that's how things are you can't hold Sean at complete fault for it.
Like I said, it doesn't really matter who's fault it is because the referees are not going to change their approach to the game so the only viable option is for Sean to adapt accordingly...

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08-12-2010, 07:05 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I already stated that I believe he can be an effective player without bumping the goaltenders... He can still trash talk all he wants, throw hard hits into the boards when fore-checking, and play in the crease area and try to poke home rebounds, and most important, try to score goals and set up his linemates... None of that involves doing anything the refs can throw him under the bus for...He has done this effectively in the past without a problem... The NJ playoff series (minus the screening business in Game 3) was the perfect example of how he can effectively play his game without hurting the team...



Like I said, it doesn't really matter who's fault it is because the referees are not going to change their approach to the game so the only viable option is for Sean to adapt accordingly...

I agree he was great in the NJ series. The problem is I think that we're talking about last year. That was the real issue. And to me if he's doing those things you talked about in your post he's going to get called for something eventually. It's unfortunate but true. The guy has an X mark on his back and I agree that's not going to change.

Can Sean find a way to play his game while not leaving the refs much to call him for? That's the big question.

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08-12-2010, 07:27 PM
  #255
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Sometimes Sean will bump or trip or harass a goalie and he will go to the box and that is ok. The larger gain of annoying and hopefully getting that netminder off his game is worth the two minutes. For the rest of the game every time he's near the net, the D and the goalie will have one eye on him and one on the puck carrier. There's a residual benefit to his antics. I don't like the fact that he gets penalized for nothing sometimes but that's unfortunately going to happen. My question is does Ruutu on Ottawa get the same treatment? That guy is an instigator and he takes cheap shots to hurt guys. There are plenty of guys like that in the league. I hope they too are getting phantom calls against.

My fear is that Sean is unique in the eyes of the officials because of his comments about Phaneuf that for some reason was a national tragedy. They should all man up. Dion has had plenty of chances to show his displeasure. It was between two men and all the rest of it is window dressing.

Sean, play nasty but as smart as possible within that context and all Ranger fans will cheer you. Disappear and we will boo you and the team will suffer. I don't see that he has any choice. And this includes harassing the goalies from time to time.

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08-12-2010, 08:02 PM
  #256
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. And this includes harassing the goalies from time to time.




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08-12-2010, 08:14 PM
  #257
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08-12-2010, 08:32 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post


He IS a jerk on the ice. That's not a crime though, plenty of players are. And as long as you play within the rules there's nothing illegal about being a jerk.

I don't recall him getting into trouble off the ice...especially last year, so maybe you need to refresh my memory.

The sloppy seconds comment was the most overblown thing I've ever seen.

His comments back in LA about French-Canadians and visors might've offended some, but they're arguably true.

Whether or not they offend or bother you is irrelevant to anything. It should have no bearing on officials or the league screwing him.

He was also spot on about his criticizm of Bettman and how he markets the league.


I agree with your last point about his reputation, and I think he did try and do that and it's why he was so ineffective this year.

He said it on that Knicks Night show and I believe him, he's going to be back. I'm sure he realized he can't not be Sean Avery and be effective.

He will hurt us some nights, but if he's on his game, he will be an extreme asset.
What I mean by being a jerk is yapping at officials and doing his I'm a bad boy routine on the ice--the hammer has dropped and he will always lose. And as far as what he's said off the ice--he should just keep his mouth shut. He doesn't come across well with his little criticisms of other people and his criticisms of the game come across as biting the hand that has tolerated him and given him millions. If he were at a "real" job, he'd be out on his butt and living out of his car because he didn't qualify for unemployment.

The long and short of it is that Avery has to learn how be a "jerk" within the rules. If he doesn't adapt, he's not going to be effective and he's not going to play a lot of minutes. He has be a hockey player first.

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08-13-2010, 08:36 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Exactly. As usual, Edge is spot on. Someone who clearly sees things as they are, and not in whatever way they want to skew it.




But Wolf, you're being hypocritical here. You're being exactly like Torts. You're complaining about how Avery wasn't effective last year and needs to play his game, then you're admitting that he's getting jobbed by the officials and saying he needs to stop doing things that are going to get him hosed by them.

So which is it? Should he play his game and hope the officials don't screw him? Or should he go out of his way to not hurt the team, and in the process hurt the team, and then hear about it from his coach and people like yourself for not playing up to his capabilities?

The guy is in a no win situation.





Agree with everything Boom Boom. Except, I do think that you can use that as a knock on Tortorella and a praise for Renney. IMO a coaches job is to get the most out of all of his players. Renney was always able to do that here. Torts strikes me as the kind of guy who is not about getting the most out of players he doesn't like. He simply shuns them until they are replaced by someone he favors more. That to me, is a definite reason to knock him.




Another spot on post here. There really is zero difference between Avery and the players you mentioned above. The only difference is Avery runs his mouth in the media and has this hollywood persona. Those are the types of things that are going to irritate people more. Not to mention that aside from Ott, Avery is a better hockey player than all of the aforementioned.


And your point at the end I think is extremely important. People sit there and justify Ovechkin's actions as a love of the game, or someone who will do anything to win. But the bottom line is a lot of the time Ovechkin's actions are dangerous, disrespectful, and just uncalled for.

I was shocked when he was suspended last year. I thought the league would continue to let their pretty boy do whatever he wanted (and I'd assume if they didn't have Sidney they probably would). However you'll never hear Gary Bettman come out and say that he's insulted by Ovie's recklessness on the ice because it sends a bad message to his daughter.

And yeah, when's the last time Avery punched a cab driver over a quarter?

He gets a raw deal cause he runs his mouth and people don't like it. Add that to the diving and officials around the league have it out for him.





And we end with the off base post. Read the ones I quoted above to get a real clue on the situation. They all explained it better than I could so there's no need to reiterate.
I don't mind being lamblasted about my thoughts, I have thick skin. But what I said and it is in black and white, is that the league is all about promoting skill sets- and the key words are skill sets not promoting attitudes. If attitudes is the basis of whether we promote players or not than diving by Crosby or cheap shots by OV are out of the picture and we are left with promoting Lady Bing canditates. SHEESH weak argument as far as I can see.
Next argument on one hand you state that Avery has the skill sets that sets him apart from the other clowns that are instigators-and that was basically what I said, I would rather he play his skill set first because that was what made him effective, playing the game first and mixing in the clown stuff. If you start with the clown stuff 1st and foremost you basically become ineffective and prone to officials calling penalties with no benefit of doubt, which is where Avery is now. Its a simple thing - play hockey, thats your profession.

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08-13-2010, 09:07 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
What I mean by being a jerk is yapping at officials and doing his I'm a bad boy routine on the ice--the hammer has dropped and he will always lose. And as far as what he's said off the ice--he should just keep his mouth shut. He doesn't come across well with his little criticisms of other people and his criticisms of the game come across as biting the hand that has tolerated him and given him millions. If he were at a "real" job, he'd be out on his butt and living out of his car because he didn't qualify for unemployment.

The long and short of it is that Avery has to learn how be a "jerk" within the rules. If he doesn't adapt, he's not going to be effective and he's not going to play a lot of minutes. He has be a hockey player first.
It's hard to try and make this comparable to a real job though. We all know professional sports are different. I'm not going to defend the things he's said or any of that. The Phaneuf thing was something he should've saved for the ice and to say to Dion's face, not to try and make a scene in front of the media. It still shouldn't have been such a big deal though. The league made it the circus that it became. It's the freakin' NHL for crying out loud. No media in here would've followed up on it the next day if it weren't for the NHL having an aneurysm about it.

I agree with your last point but what I've been saying all along is that what he says or what his personality is should not give referees the right to make phantom penalty calls. It's hard to play your game within the rules, when the rules don't apply to you. There's a make-it-up-as-we-go type mentality with the referees that only seems to apply to him, so it's hard to figure out what those rules are since they're different for you than they are everyone else.


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I don't mind being lamblasted about my thoughts, I have thick skin. But what I said and it is in black and white, is that the league is all about promoting skill sets- and the key words are skill sets not promoting attitudes. If attitudes is the basis of whether we promote players or not than diving by Crosby or cheap shots by OV are out of the picture and we are left with promoting Lady Bing canditates. SHEESH weak argument as far as I can see.
Next argument on one hand you state that Avery has the skill sets that sets him apart from the other clowns that are instigators-and that was basically what I said, I would rather he play his skill set first because that was what made him effective, playing the game first and mixing in the clown stuff. If you start with the clown stuff 1st and foremost you basically become ineffective and prone to officials calling penalties with no benefit of doubt, which is where Avery is now. Its a simple thing - play hockey, thats your profession.
I'm pretty sure the league is all about promoting Crosby and Ovechkin. There's plenty of other players in this league that have world class skill sets and the league doesn't do dick to market them. When's the last time you saw Marian Gaborik somewhere? And he plays in the biggest market on earth.

Avery has a solid set of hockey skills but I think it's hard to differentiate between the antics and his play. They go hand in hand as far as I can tell. During his tenure here he's always been at his best when the antics are at the apex. It's hard to ask for one without the other. Or ask for one before the other.

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08-13-2010, 09:15 AM
  #261
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I don't mind if Avery yaps at other players.. he just has to watch his mouth when talking to the refs.

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08-13-2010, 09:18 AM
  #262
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I don't mind if Avery yaps at other players.. he just has to watch his mouth when talking to the refs.
To be honest (and obviously not being on the ice have no way of knowing this) I don't really see that as an issue. Avery's all about yapping and pissing off other players. I only see him give his looks of disgust and mouthing things when he gets called for ridiculous penalties. Which plenty of players do.

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08-13-2010, 09:27 AM
  #263
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To be honest (and obviously not being on the ice have no way of knowing this) I don't really see that as an issue. Avery's all about yapping and pissing off other players. I only see him give his looks of disgust and mouthing things when he gets called for ridiculous penalties. Which plenty of players do.
True, but I think he toned down his yapping at players a bit last year. I'm not saying he should do the Brodeur stick-waving, but just seeing other players' faces react when he yaps is priceless!

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08-13-2010, 10:11 AM
  #264
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robruckus said:"I'm pretty sure the league is all about promoting Crosby and Ovechkin. There's plenty of other players in this league that have world class skill sets and the league doesn't do dick to market them. When's the last time you saw Marian Gaborik somewhere? And he plays in the biggest market on earth.

Avery has a solid set of hockey skills but I think it's hard to differentiate between the antics and his play. They go hand in hand as far as I can tell. During his tenure here he's always been at his best when the antics are at the apex. It's hard to ask for one without the other. Or ask for one before the other. "

I agree that the league does a lousy job of promoting players, but on the same token why promote players league wide when the teams can't hold the candle. Its tough to promote Gaborik when the NYR's fail to make the PO's? What good is promoting Thornton when he can't shine in the PO's. Promoting is all about winning as well, its a tough sell promoting a losing team with a star.
I have no problem with your assertion that Avery needs both aspects of his game for the player to be effective and I agree. Its just that from what you say you are 50/50 in what to bring to the table in regards to skill set and attitude. I am more in line with the 65/35, with the skill set being the major overriding factor.

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08-13-2010, 11:03 AM
  #265
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robruckus said:"I'm pretty sure the league is all about promoting Crosby and Ovechkin. There's plenty of other players in this league that have world class skill sets and the league doesn't do dick to market them. When's the last time you saw Marian Gaborik somewhere? And he plays in the biggest market on earth.

Avery has a solid set of hockey skills but I think it's hard to differentiate between the antics and his play. They go hand in hand as far as I can tell. During his tenure here he's always been at his best when the antics are at the apex. It's hard to ask for one without the other. Or ask for one before the other. "

I agree that the league does a lousy job of promoting players, but on the same token why promote players league wide when the teams can't hold the candle. Its tough to promote Gaborik when the NYR's fail to make the PO's? What good is promoting Thornton when he can't shine in the PO's. Promoting is all about winning as well, its a tough sell promoting a losing team with a star.
I have no problem with your assertion that Avery needs both aspects of his game for the player to be effective and I agree. Its just that from what you say you are 50/50 in what to bring to the table in regards to skill set and attitude. I am more in line with the 65/35, with the skill set being the major overriding factor.

I think something can be said about Avery's comments a while ago about hero's and villains creating an interesting storyline.

As good of a hockey player as Crosby is, he's pretty boring as a personality.

Ovechkin has a very marketable personality and I think they've taken advantage of that.

My problem is this league forgets that there's more than those two players in this league.

They completely disregard the rest of their players.

I said earlier how I don't like to put numbers on stuff like that because I'm not really good at it. I think if Avery is capable of performing at that clip than fine. I just look at it more on the whole and I feel like it's all a part of him. It all makes up who he is on the ice. It's hard to tone one down while not effecting the other.

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08-13-2010, 11:04 AM
  #266
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Any idiot can figure out that a coach would want a player on his team to play good hockey. The problem is you're neglecting the coach's role in getting the message across to that player what is expected from him and getting it out of him.

The fact that you admit his comments may be hypocritical means you should be able to understand why Sean's game lacked at times, and why it was hard for him to figure out how his hypocritical coach wanted him to play.
I'm sure Avery is smart enough to know that even Torts liked what he saw in the Dallas game for example. Now I don't expect 3-point games every other night from Avery, but he simply played worse hockey compared to previous seasons. I agree that maybe Torts wants to change the agitating aspect of Avery's game and that this makes him less effective in that regard. It doesn't stop him from scoring goals though.

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08-13-2010, 01:37 PM
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Did he pull the goalie crap with Hank when he played for Dallas?

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08-13-2010, 01:46 PM
  #268
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Did he pull the goalie crap with Hank when he played for Dallas?
Yep, Dubinsky came to Lundqvist's aid. You don't remember?

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08-13-2010, 02:45 PM
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08-13-2010, 02:46 PM
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Yep, Dubinsky came to Lundqvist's aid. You don't remember?
I don't remember at all. I think I was at work that night.

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08-13-2010, 02:58 PM
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I don't remember at all. I think I was at work that night.
He didn't do anything crazy. He was yapping at Vally during warmups and then after the whistle was saying stuff to Hank, and Dubi stepped in and basically told him that **** wasn't going down tonight.

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08-13-2010, 07:41 PM
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My fear is that Sean is unique in the eyes of the officials because of his comments about Phaneuf that for some reason was a national tragedy.
The Phaneuf stuff had less than zero to do with how Avery is treated by the refs. He earned his treatment way before then, and now he and the Rangers are paying the price.

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08-14-2010, 12:50 AM
  #273
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He didn't do anything crazy. He was yapping at Vally during warmups and then after the whistle was saying stuff to Hank, and Dubi stepped in and basically told him that **** wasn't going down tonight.
I just can't imagine him being too much of a dick to Hank, you know?

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