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Tortorella's successes so far

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Old
08-13-2010, 09:19 AM
  #26
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Originally Posted by DekeR View Post
Having Jokinen, Kotalik, Higgins, Lisin, Boyle, Brashear and EC as a 1st line center and still battling for a playoff spot at the end of the season - how can you say there was not at least some success?
How much of an achievement making the playoffs is really. More teams make the playoffs than miss it. If you have an elite scorer and an elite goalie, you're going to challenge for the playoffs.

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08-13-2010, 09:20 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by pwoz View Post
I h8 Redden and Drury with every fiber of my being, but I would be mad if they were benched for the rest of the game depending on when it happened... if early in the game then that means more minutes for everyone... not a fan of that.. or if it's midway through the game and we're losing.. again more minutes for everyone bad... but if it's somehow a blowout in our favor or if we're winning with 10 min left in the 3rd.. i wouldn't mind a benching.

Also as much as I h8 Redden, he can play 20+ minutes.. not that he'll be GOOD, but he can do it.. the youts like MDZ and Gilroy (please become a fwd) can't play that many minutes like Redden or Rozsival.
Fair enough. Just posing the question.

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08-13-2010, 09:27 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
But that wasn't what was being said. It was being likened to Keenan replacing Roger Neilson. Keenan didn't miss the playoffs when he took over.
I think they're just very different teams and we have to accept that.

Messier vs. Christensen.

Graves vs. Dubinsky.

Gartner/Amonte vs. Gaborik.

If you can't compare the players, then why compare the coach?

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08-13-2010, 09:28 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
I think they're just very different teams and we have to accept that.

Messier vs. Christensen.

Graves vs. Dubinsky.

Gartner/Amonte vs. Gaborik.

If you can't compare the players, then why compare the coach?
Because so much was put on the coach when the coaching change was made.

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08-13-2010, 09:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Devils advocate:

What if it was Wade Redden who messed up? Would you still think being benched for the rest of the game was too extreme?

People (not saying you personally) called for accountability. That needs to be a team-wide thing. Not just for the scapegoat du jour.
Accountability is going to be different for different guys -- it is not a one size fits all thing.

Remember the MDZ incident? He starts beaking off to the ref which leads to a stupid penalty. Torts benches him. Period ends, MDZ heads to the locker room with his head down knowing he's gong to get ripped during intermission. After intermission, MDZ is playing on the first shift.

That was completely appropriate. You don't bench a rookie for the rest of the game for a stupid mistake -- you very clearly demonstrate you're not happy with him, you call him on his stupidity and then its over. You put the kid back in and you can bet that the next time MDZ starts a discussion with a ref it will be because he's wearing a letter on his chest.

Accountability is going to be different for different players and it should be.

The thing I like about Tortorella is that he does call guys out when needed. Everybody complains that there's no accountabilty and then if he actually says something critical of player then he's ripped for bashing the players in the press.

And if you actually listen to all of the post-game pressers you'll see a coach who goes out of his way to not be critical of individual players -- even when there is ample evidence that some guys screwed up royally. But, again, he gets ripped for not calling guys out publicly...

This has been posted before, but here's EC on getting challenged by Torts (and then putting up a 3 point night):

It’s an odd feeling. You get kind of an embarrassing feeling: He’s yelling at you in front of everyone, kind of challenging your character or your manhood or whatever you want to call it. He’s in your face. It’s kind of like he’s saying he wants you to stick it to him.

He’s telling you all this because he wants you to be better. I think you have to kind of see through what he’s saying and say, “He’s giving me a chance by putting me in this position for some reason, and I don’t think he hates me.” So you have to look at it that he’s trying to get me better. He’s trying to spark me.

If I don’t respond it looks really bad. It looks really bad on my part, and it looks really bad to the rest of the guys in the room, saying, ‘Coach challenged Christensen and he didn’t do anything tonight again,’ you know. So you try to win respect from the guys in the locker room and the coaching staff, if you can get challenged and then respond.


http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/20...by-tortorella/

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08-13-2010, 09:43 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Because so much was put on the coach when the coaching change was made.
But that's not logical. The parts aren't interchangeable, the team culture has corrupted over the years, the coaches are different.

We don't have to accept the comparison simply because it was made (repeatedly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAStuart
And if you actually listen to all of the post-game pressers you'll see a coach who goes out of his way to not be critical of individual players -- even when there is ample evidence that some guys screwed up royally.
Very true. I don't know why people can't see this. I personally like his style with players. Some players may not respond but it's because they don't like personal responsibility and being called on lack thereof. We need those players to get with the program.

Man throws a water bottle and all the "polite" fans bear their fangs (kinda ironically).

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08-13-2010, 09:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
But that's not logical. The parts aren't interchangeable, the team culture has corrupted over the years, the coaches are different.

We don't have to accept the comparison simply because it was made (repeatedly).
I'm not saying it's logical. I'm talking about what a lot of opinions where at the time.

But I can't talk about the success that Torts has had when he's failed to take the team further than his predecessor.

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08-13-2010, 09:50 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
How much of an achievement making the playoffs is really. More teams make the playoffs than miss it. If you have an elite scorer and an elite goalie, you're going to challenge for the playoffs.
Last time I checked, this was and still is a team sport. If you cannot throw on the ice a complete team that has a balance of 1st and 2nd and 3rd liners - with a decent goaltender you are not going to field a successful team. I can't see 14 new faces in a lineup from beginning to end of year roster promoting either chemistry, learning systems and coaching styles, as well as any transition periods of adjustment that the player must make mentally. To me a team that is full of 3rd liners and a goalie and scorer is still going to have a rough time competing.

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08-13-2010, 09:51 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Remember all those arguments after Renney got fired, and how Tortorella was the one to take this team to the next level?
Remember? Who needs to remember anything when SBOB or yourself bring it up in each and every convo that mentions Tort's performance. The funny thing is I can't remember either of you ever naming these posters.

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08-13-2010, 10:15 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Remember? Who needs to remember anything when SBOB or yourself bring it up in each and every convo that mentions Tort's performance. The funny thing is I can't remember either of you ever naming these posters.
Why do you need names? You don't recall people writing about how Renney was holding this wealth of offensive talent back or that safe was death? Or that Torts would take the team further in the playoffs?

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08-13-2010, 10:40 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Remember? Who needs to remember anything when SBOB or yourself bring it up in each and every convo that mentions Tort's performance. The funny thing is I can't remember either of you ever naming these posters.
If you want me to name names, I sure could. Its probably difficult to determine who they were because they've clammed up and changed positions over the past 18 months.

Its a personnel problem now, but for some reason it wasnt back then.

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08-13-2010, 10:48 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by DekeR View Post
Having Jokinen, Kotalik, Higgins, Lisin, Boyle, Brashear and EC as a 1st line center and still battling for a playoff spot at the end of the season - how can you say there was not at least some success? Not to mention three rookies on the squad.
LOL. Check Renney's squad the year out of the lockout. Actually, check all of his squads.


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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
A lot of the mindset was (and maybe it was misreading the situation) was that the team was close. That Renney's system was stifling untapped offense. Safe is death was indeed death. So the made the change to the complete opposite type of coach and they have not seen the same degree of success.

I don't want to turn this into another Renney v Torts thread, but I don't recall Renney making all the excuses that Torts has in a shorter amount of time. "Let's take buses" "I don't like the room" "We need to get younger".

Personally, I think Torts' tenure has been tainted by the act he pulled in the playoffs.
I think Torts' tenure has been tainted by the fact this team has regressed, and he's shown to be incapable of getting the most out of his limited talent. For a guy who was supposed to do more than Renney ever could, Renney sure was able to get the most out of players. Torts seems to get nothing.



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Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
Man, you have to break down a system to install a new one. Give him another year. It will move forward.
Your opinion of Torts is based on what? Obviously not his performance. And what the hell is his system? Cause I'm pretty positive he bailed on that and took up Renney 2.0 when he realize he didn't have the horses to pull the cart.


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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
What seems to be conveniently ignored is the idea that Torts was supposed to take the Rangers to the next level. Renney had taken them as far as he could. Seems to me Torts has them going backwards.
Precisely. They've gotten worse since he's been here and that's pretty incredible. Other than the beginning and end of last season, this team was a disaster. Add to the fact that it was Renney's team that got him to the playoffs the year before and he was incapable of holding a 3-1 series lead and got himself suspended for being an idiot (all the while preaching discipline) and you've got yourself a pretty sorry excuse for a coach thus far.


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I don't think it's unbelievable at all. There wasn't a whole lot of happiness in last season's outcome. Missed playoffs. Wild inconsistency. Anemic offense. Pourous defense. Unprepared. Poor line matching. Restless line combos. Some of it rests squarely on the coach's shoulders. The only truly unbelieveable thing here is how deep into the barrel one is willing to scrape to find a single scrap of "success" for this team. I mean, the two successes mentioned in the OP was: 1) he's good at scaring people and 2) he knows when to call a timeout. Really? What should we chalk up to success next year if the Rangers miss the PO's again? The knot in his tie? The cut of his hair?[/QUOTE]

Hahaha. That got me good. Maybe it'll be when he actually shows all the attributes that he demands from his players? It's hard to respect a hypocrite, and I think that's one of his biggest problems.

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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
If you want to be pessimistic the only real success is winning a cup, but come on her hasn't done nothing. He's not Isiah Thomas.

The world ****'s on everyone at some point. Pretending it ain't **** doesn't make you optimist. It makes you an idiot.

This team has one 1 Cup in the last 70 years. The guy you started a thread about lauding his success has failed to reach the playoffs in his only full year as coach, and as Sign' mentioned he was brought in to make this team better and he hasn't done that. Yet for some reason the guy who has taken over and driven the team backwards is suddenly the one who in your eyes is going to lead us to another Cup? Based on what? Wishful thinking?


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Originally Posted by DekeR View Post
Last time I checked, this was and still is a team sport. If you cannot throw on the ice a complete team that has a balance of 1st and 2nd and 3rd liners - with a decent goaltender you are not going to field a successful team. I can't see 14 new faces in a lineup from beginning to end of year roster promoting either chemistry, learning systems and coaching styles, as well as any transition periods of adjustment that the player must make mentally. To me a team that is full of 3rd liners and a goalie and scorer is still going to have a rough time competing.
Again, LOL. Check out Renney's teams and get back to me. When he reaches Renney's level of success here maybe, MAYBE you can think about making that comment.


Last edited by ruckus*: 08-13-2010 at 10:58 AM.
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08-13-2010, 10:53 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Why do you need names? You don't recall people writing about how Renney was holding this wealth of offensive talent back or that safe was death? Or that Torts would take the team further in the playoffs?
I'd like the names so that we can put an end to this silly argument that Torts was supposed to take the 08-09 Rangers or last years Rangers to the "next level". It wasn't going to happen no matter who was coach...no, not even Tom Renney. If we get these names, perhaps we can tar and feather these people. It would be less painful (to me) than having to constantly read about their incorrect assessments on a perpetual basis.

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08-13-2010, 10:57 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I'd like the names so that we can put an end to this silly argument that Torts was supposed to take the 08-09 Rangers or last years Rangers to the "next level". It wasn't going to happen no matter who was coach...no, not even Tom Renney. If we get these names, perhaps we can tar and feather these people. It would be less painful (to me) than having to constantly read about their incorrect assessments on a perpetual basis.
You HAVE to constantly read something you object to? Sounds more like a personal problem. Don't worry, I have OCD too!

All kidding aside, you're not going to get names. 18 months makes collecting them very difficult. However, you will get a 2nd person (me) to back up SBOB's claim. The Torts Liberation was definitely the argument of the day. I remember clearly Dagoon getting verbally bashed for being entirely against the Torts hiring...warning people they were going to get what they asked for.

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08-13-2010, 11:04 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
You HAVE to constantly read something you object to? Sounds more like a personal problem. Don't worry, I have OCD too!

All kidding aside, you're not going to get names. 18 months makes collecting them very difficult. However, you will get a 2nd person (me) to back up SBOB's claim. The Torts Liberation was definitely the argument of the day. I remember clearly Dagoon getting verbally bashed for being entirely against the Torts hiring...warning people they were going to get what they asked for.
Make that a third. I remember it vividly.


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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I'd like the names so that we can put an end to this silly argument that Torts was supposed to take the 08-09 Rangers or last years Rangers to the "next level". It wasn't going to happen no matter who was coach...no, not even Tom Renney. If we get these names, perhaps we can tar and feather these people. It would be less painful (to me) than having to constantly read about their incorrect assessments on a perpetual basis.
It seems like you have no actual argument so you're just trying to deflect the conversation to something else.

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08-13-2010, 11:12 AM
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What seems to be conveniently ignored is the idea that Torts was supposed to take the Rangers to the next level. Renney had taken them as far as he could. Seems to me Torts has them going backwards.
I guess no one anticipated the entire roster going backwards as well. Renney had Jagr, Straka, and Nylander that had amazing chemistry, and after that, Gomez anchored the 1st line.

Renney's rosters were better than Torts, IMO. You can only do so much with what you're given.

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08-13-2010, 11:13 AM
  #42
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You HAVE to constantly read something you object to? Sounds more like a personal problem. Don't worry, I have OCD too!

All kidding aside, you're not going to get names. 18 months makes collecting them very difficult. However, you will get a 2nd person (me) to back up SBOB's claim. The Torts Liberation was definitely the argument of the day. I remember clearly Dagoon getting verbally bashed for being entirely against the Torts hiring...warning people they were going to get what they asked for.

I don't doubt SBOB's claim. It was an opinion at the time that Torts could get more out of the team and of course it can be and has been argued (many many times) that Torts did get more out of that team. My issue is the constant need to bring it up at every opportunity. I just don't understand what the purpose is. Anyone with half a brain can see that neither the 08-09 or 09-10 Rangers were going anywhere.

The constant need to compare Renney to Torts is natural. I get that. My issue is with the attempt to hold Torts to an impossible standard because some people on a message board had delusional expectations.

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08-13-2010, 11:13 AM
  #43
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I'd say his biggest success so far has been his ability to whip, or even scare players into shape before the season. (There will be no Albert Haynesworths here! ) Other than that I think just his preference and insistence on seeing youth is a success in and of itself. Also he's very good at calling time outs and organizing a plan at a major point in the game. He's won us a couple games this way. All in all I like Tortorella, and I like how our future looks. I see Torts as the guy who leads us to our next cup, but I wouldn't expect that to happen any time soon. I'm talking like around the 2013'-2014' season, earliest.
I like to stay optimistic, and I would truly like for Tortorella to succeed here...but, I really don't agree with the assesment above at all. I know he talks a big game, but I just have this strange feeling that he's grasping at straws and says things to grab attention in the same way a shock-jock would. Has he really whipped anyone into shape? I mean, if anything I think he doused the fire out of Avery. Either that or the Meds did? For Tortorella to show me his worth here, he needs to get the most out of key members here. So with Gabby I think he did great.

Good at time outs, organizing a plan... Really? I’m not at all ready to give him credit for any of that, plus I think his line juggling hurt this club bigtime as do his matchups.

More importantly, I am just not so certain that "his style" of hockey really works with the players currently employed on this club.

With all pressure on Sather for overspending on free agents… I think Torts has been given somewhat of a pass with the fans so far. To me, it's time for him to be held accountable. For Tortorella to gain my respect to change my opinion of him, here's what I would personally like to see happen.

1) Show us, the fans…that there indeed is a plan, and how he plans to execute it and be able to compete in the east. Show us that you can get this group into the playoffs.
2) Get the most out of Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov. Do any of these three benefit from this style, or are they not suited for this system?
3) The tirades can be comical, but the reverse effect is that instead of beat writers covering the team, they cover the sideshow. The bus stop comment was funny, the backlash isn’t. I think Larry is very good at what he does, and whether or not I agree with his rumblings 100% of the time doesn’t discount the fact that he is an insider and has access to the organization. Larry brings it, but Larry under Torts now has the underlying “I hate this prick” in all of his work which to me dilutes his writing.
4) If he wants youth, why did the vets get a free pass? To this I mean Drury, Redden and Rosy. If they are here they need to produce. If they aren’t producing then these guys need to ride the pine, not the Dubinksy’s or Anisimov’s.
5) Show me that this relatively soft defense can compete and win against teams like Wash, Pitt, Philthy, and who I feel will be the next monster…Tampa.



Untill I see results from Tortorella, I am just not sold.

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08-13-2010, 11:28 AM
  #44
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I'm not positive but i thought i remember seeing quotes from Torts last year saying it's gonna take YEARS to rebuild and become contenders. With the roster he had, I think he did ok and should bounce back to the playoffs this year. IMO they got better this year which isn't the popular thing to say around here it seems. It's a process. Anyone who thought he would take the Rangers to "another level" last year didn't know Tort's plan.

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08-13-2010, 11:29 AM
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I guess no one anticipated the entire roster going backwards as well. Renney had Jagr, Straka, and Nylander that had amazing chemistry, and after that, Gomez anchored the 1st line.

Renney's rosters were better than Torts, IMO. You can only do so much with what you're given.
05-06...Besides that line he had Rucinsky, Prucha, Rucchin, Sykora, Ward, Moore, Nieminen, Hossa, Betts, Ortmeyer, Hollweg....

Hmmm, stellar really.

06-07 was a big upgrade because of Shanny really. Cullen helped but even he greatly underachieved due to having to play above his head. Even with the huge addition of Shanny we still were throwing guys like Dupuis, Krog, Isbister, Immonen, and Hall out there.

Not much of a supporting cast.

07-08 still almost pisses me off as much as 06-07. Those Hollweg penalties that cost us when we took all that momentum in Game 3 and the fact we blew that lead in Game 1 still makes my blood boil.


It's an interesting debate about the roster for sure.

No one would ever convince me that Renney wouldn't have gotten the 08-09 team to the post season though. I started viewing Torts on last season. I'm even willing to forget his disaster series against Washington. Last year he was just putrid though.

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08-13-2010, 11:30 AM
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When I saw the title of this thread, I expected the post to be blank. Successes? LOL.

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08-13-2010, 11:35 AM
  #47
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I'm not positive but i thought i remember seeing quotes from Torts last year saying it's gonna take YEARS to rebuild and become contenders. With the roster he had, I think he did ok and should bounce back to the playoffs this year. IMO they got better this year which isn't the popular thing to say around here it seems. It's a process. Anyone who thought he would take the Rangers to "another level" last year didn't know Tort's plan.
How on earth does not making the playoffs for the first time since the lockout equate to the team getting better last year? Especially when your predecessor got them there every year and STILL got fired.

How does being ATROCIOUS on home ice and playing some of the worst hockey in the league from November-March equate to getting better?

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08-13-2010, 11:40 AM
  #48
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robruckos said:"Quote:
Originally Posted by DekeR
Last time I checked, this was and still is a team sport. If you cannot throw on the ice a complete team that has a balance of 1st and 2nd and 3rd liners - with a decent goaltender you are not going to field a successful team. I can't see 14 new faces in a lineup from beginning to end of year roster promoting either chemistry, learning systems and coaching styles, as well as any transition periods of adjustment that the player must make mentally. To me a team that is full of 3rd liners and a goalie and scorer is still going to have a rough time competing.

Again, LOL. Check out Renney's teams and get back to me. When he reaches Renney's level of success here maybe, MAYBE you can think about making that comment.

Thats funny : especially when you consider that Renney had two HOF in the lineup with Jagr and Shannahan, couple that with Nylander and Straka and that creates a decent offensive team. I guess you figure that players like EC and Prospal and two players in their 3rd year of existence in Dubi and Callahan are comparable in skill set and experience to compare both teams. I guess that is where I have a problem with your knowledge and how you compare teams, their skill sets, and those expectations with you try to compare coaching abilities. I remember Renney being able to take a skilled team and make it to a 2nd round once. I remember Renney also taking a team and having its players quit on him. I have no problem with Renney and I have no problem with the mess that Torts had to deal with in establishing a team with 14 new faces last year, two rookies and no backup goaltending, couple that with R&R. And you are trying to sell that team as a PO team?

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08-13-2010, 11:43 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
I guess no one anticipated the entire roster going backwards as well. Renney had Jagr, Straka, and Nylander that had amazing chemistry, and after that, Gomez anchored the 1st line.

Renney's rosters were better than Torts, IMO. You can only do so much with what you're given.
The year Renney was let go he didn't have a better roster. He had lost 4 of his top scorers (Jagr, Shanny, Avery, Straka).

This years roster was better than the one Renney had.

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08-13-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I don't doubt SBOB's claim. It was an opinion at the time that Torts could get more out of the team and of course it can be and has been argued (many many times) that Torts did get more out of that team. My issue is the constant need to bring it up at every opportunity. I just don't understand what the purpose is. Anyone with half a brain can see that neither the 08-09 or 09-10 Rangers were going anywhere.

The constant need to compare Renney to Torts is natural. I get that. My issue is with the attempt to hold Torts to an impossible standard because some people on a message board had delusional expectations.
Well, you're operating with a bit of hindsight here too. Higgins, Kots, Drury were all 20+ goal scorers, and Dubi and Cally were expected to have breakout years. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone expecting Higgins to score less than 10 goals. And only a few here saw Kots for the dog he eventually showed himself to be. Drury had an amazingly bad year, and Cally/Dubi never really got going until mid-way. Also, there were many here who felt (and still do feel) that, on paper, last year's team was better than the previous year.

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