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Old
08-14-2010, 11:01 PM
  #26
patsbury
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HF has got Dumont at #13 and Avstin at #12...we ranked them #20 and #6 respectively I'm glad most of you denied a 51 goals season in the Q

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Old
08-14-2010, 11:09 PM
  #27
Fel 96
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that was definetly a great read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
i'll probably get accused of being a 'thread pooper' again, but someone already started this thread. Enjoyed the write up, although i don't think they went as deep as they could have into the more important prospects.


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=809605
zomg, thread pooper!

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Old
08-14-2010, 11:13 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsbury View Post
HF has got Dumont at #13 and Avstin at #12...we ranked them #20 and #6 respectively I'm glad most of you denied a 51 goals season in the Q
HF also had maxwell above subban last year. Don't put much stock into their rankings. I only read the writeups, the rankings mean very little.

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Old
08-14-2010, 11:40 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Bross View Post
He's extremely close to graduating as a prospect, so I decided to leave him off the list, rather than exclude, say, Nattinen. Once he does, it would be a "top 19" until the next update.
I honestly don't understand how you can exclude Pacioretty on your list of prospects and include Subban. Subban is a lock NHLer and will play 120 games over the next 2 years minimum and Pacioretty won't play even 40 this year.

Pacioretty is way more of a prospect than Subban is. Or is Patches 21 on your list?

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Old
08-14-2010, 11:43 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23Hab View Post
I guess MaxPac has played too many games to still be considered a prospect.

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Old
08-14-2010, 11:51 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I honestly don't understand how you can exclude Pacioretty on your list of prospects and include Subban. Subban is a lock NHLer and will play 120 games over the next 2 years minimum and Pacioretty won't play even 40 this year.

Pacioretty is way more of a prospect than Subban is. Or is Patches 21 on your list?
Well, in Mr. Bross' defense, you need a crystal ball to make that statement with 100% certainty, while he doesn't need one to know that Pacioretty has already played 86 NHL games. He is HF staff, after all, and their "guidelines"/"definitions" of a prospect are hardly a secret. If the same "crystal ball powers" are extended to him (Bross) he could reply that MaxPac won't become a career minor leaguer, and could be considered something like a graduate "on probation", if that makes everyone feel better.

But we all know what you're saying, and probably agree to an extent. No need to lay traps with 21st on our prospect list stuff. He'd obviously be at least in the top half of anyone's list, if included right now.

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Old
08-14-2010, 11:54 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, in Mr. Bross' defense, you need a crystal ball to make that statement with 100% certainty, while he doesn't need one to know that Pacioretty has already played 86 NHL games. He is HF staff, after all, and their "guidelines"/"definitions" of a prospect are hardly a secret. If the same "crystal ball powers" are extended to him (Bross) he could reply that MaxPac won't become a career minor leaguer, and could be considered something like a graduate "on probation", if that makes everyone feel better.

But we all know what you're saying, and probably agree to an extent. No need to lay traps with 21st on our prospect list stuff. He'd obviously be at least in the top half of anyone's list, if included right now.
I think their prospect system is pretty @#$%#$ because if you took HF's over top 10 prospects, imo they are not prospects, they are pretty much lock nhlers.

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08-14-2010, 11:58 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I think their prospect system is pretty @#$%#$ because if you took HF's over top 10 prospects, imo they are not prospects, they are pretty much lock nhlers.
And yet, until they either play 65 games or turn 24, HF and it's staff can feel free to resist looking into the crystal ball and be as consistent as they deem necessary with their prospect "definition". It's not like they're trying to make the "rules" for all to follow or anything.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:04 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I think their prospect system is pretty @#$%#$ because if you took HF's over top 10 prospects, imo they are not prospects, they are pretty much lock nhlers.
Well they have to draw the line somewhere, I guess. And an 'x number of games' rule is as good as any to judge whether someone has graduated. If it were left up to the writer's discretion, we'd have some mighty ****ed up lists, and many, many more complaints than just yours. But I agree 100% with what you're saying.

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08-15-2010, 12:08 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Well they have to draw the line somewhere, I guess. And an 'x number of games' rule is as good as any to judge whether someone has graduated. If it were left up to the writer's discretion, we'd have some mighty ****ed up lists, and many, many more complaints than just yours. But I agree 100% with what you're saying.
Its kinda like saying sidney crosby was a prospect in 2006 when he only played 50 games when Wayne was choosing the Olympic roster.

He was a lock NHLer at that point. If they aren't smart enough to have a rule for exceptions and stick to a hard fast rule, then they deserve the critizism. But I'm preachign to the choir.

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08-15-2010, 12:11 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Its kinda like saying sidney crosby was a prospect in 2006 when he only played 50 games when Wayne was choosing the Olympic roster.

He was a lock NHLer at that point. If they aren't smart enough to have a rule for exceptions and stick to a hard fast rule, then they deserve the critizism. But I'm preachign to the choir.
Yeah man, i get what you're saying. It's just that, and I may ruffle some feathers here, some of the lists they make already (which are more or less based on writer's discretion) are pretty weird when it comes to the order. If they start using said discretion to decide who is and who isn't a prospect, it might get even uglier. It's kinda like NHL refs, they **** up a lot, so introducing any new rule based on their discretion would be bat **** insane.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:13 AM
  #37
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Its kinda like saying sidney crosby was a prospect in 2006 when he only played 50 games when Wayne was choosing the Olympic roster.

He was a lock NHLer at that point. If they aren't smart enough to have a rule for exceptions and stick to a hard fast rule, then they deserve the critizism. But I'm preachign to the choir.
And if people don't read the entirety of the site's publicly available guidelines, they might criticize unduly:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/whatmakesaprospect/

"NOTE: These are general guidelines and should be followed the majority of the time but certain players may still be listed as prospects if circumstances warrant."

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:15 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And if people don't read the entirety of the site's publicly available guidelines, they might criticize unduly:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/whatmakesaprospect/

"NOTE: These are general guidelines and should be followed the majority of the time but certain players may still be listed as prospects if circumstances warrant."
Doesn't that kind of prove mcavoy's point, though? He's arguing that if there is room for exceptions (which you've just provided), then patches should be listed as a prospect.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:18 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Doesn't that kind of prove mcavoy's point, though? He's arguing that if there is room for exceptions (which you've just provided), then patches should be listed as a prospect.
Not at all. It only proves that in Bross' opinion, it simply isn't warranted in MaxPac's case. And he's completely within his rights to hold that opinion given the general guidelines, and the fact that the only "arguments" against his opinion involve OTHER opinions based on future-telling.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:23 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not at all. It only proves that in Bross' opinion, it simply isn't warranted in MaxPac's case. And he's completely within his rights to hold that opinion given the general guidelines, and the fact that the only "arguments" against his opinion involve OTHER opinions based on future-telling.
Find me 10 other scouts / nhl execs then that think patches isn't a prospect.

overlord is right, it proves my point, there isn't a 100 professionals that will say that patches is a NHL player and not merely a prospect at this point.

the fact that he played more games than the requirement is a very big sign that its more than just his opinion.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:26 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not at all. It only proves that in Bross' opinion, it simply isn't warranted in MaxPac's case. And he's completely within his rights to hold that opinion given the general guidelines, and the fact that the only "arguments" against his opinion involve OTHER opinions based on future-telling.
I'm not saying it isn't within his rights, just that it may have been better had he chosen to exercise his right in going against the norm and put paccioretty as a prospect. By no means do I think the posters on Hf Habs to be all knowing, but if we were all polled on whether or not he was a prospect (and by that, not nhl ready), I'm willing to bet that 85% or more would agree.

But in essence, yes, all we're saying is that we're disagreeing with the writer's opinion, nothing wrong with that, I would think.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:26 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Find me 10 other scouts / nhl execs then that think patches isn't a prospect.

overlord is right, it proves my point, there isn't a 100 professionals that will say that patches is a NHL player and not merely a prospect at this point.

the fact that he played more games than the requirement is a very big sign that its more than just his opinion.
Find me 10 that do? Perhaps Bross thinks Max is a sure-fire NHL'er, who is simply on a slightly slower career path (as is ALSO mentioned in those guidelines, btw). What, do you disagree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I'm not saying it isn't within his rights, just that it may have been better had he chosen to exercise his right in going against the norm and put paccioretty as a prospect. By no means do I think the posters on Hf Habs to be all knowing, but if we were all polled on whether or not he was a prospect (and by that, not nhl ready), I'm willing to bet that 85% or more would agree.

But in essence, yes, all we're saying is that we're disagreeing with the writer's opinion, nothing wrong with that, I would think.
Not at all. I encourage it, in fact. All I have commented on is some specifics behind the criticism, which I have shown to be off-base.

And btw, that 85% could be seen as admitting that there is absolutely no way that Max could be considered a sure-fire NHL'er (someday - again, the slower career path thing... even without the games played criteria he'd eventually be removed from the prospect list at 24). Put that way, I think the 85% begins to waffle on their strong opinion that Max MUST still be considered a prospect right now.

But seriously, I'm done with the whole semantics thing. Anyone who disagrees strongly enough with Bross should write a letter/email or contact an admin or something.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 08-15-2010 at 12:33 AM.
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Old
08-15-2010, 12:30 AM
  #43
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There are two ways of seeing a prospect, if someone will make the NHL or how good they will be when they get there. If we go by the first category, maxpac can play in the NHL and has. Now...if we consider how good he will be, we realize that's why he's not in the NHL, to increase his chances of reaching his potential. He's proven he can play in the NHL, so that type of prospect is kind of off the board for me.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:43 AM
  #44
macavoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Find me 10 that do?.
Steve Kasper
Alyn McCauley
Kevin Devine
George Armstrong
Michael Futa
Jason Rowe
Pat Funk
Adam Creighton
Mike McGraw
Ryan Vinz

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:44 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
There are two ways of seeing a prospect, if someone will make the NHL or how good they will be when they get there. If we go by the first category, maxpac can play in the NHL and has. Now...if we consider how good he will be, we realize that's why he's not in the NHL, to increase his chances of reaching his potential. He's proven he can play in the NHL, so that type of prospect is kind of off the board for me.
By this definition, is Subban a prospect?

you proved my point imo.

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Old
08-15-2010, 12:49 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
By this definition, is Subban a prospect?

you proved my point imo.
Subban's sample is far less than maxpac's sample. Pacioretty has played 86 regular season games with the habs, subban has played 2(16 if you count playoffs).

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Old
08-15-2010, 01:45 AM
  #47
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Great read.


Considering how well Eller did in the AHL, i consider him a much safer prospect than Tonordi/Leblanc/Kristo. I think he would have deserved a 7.5b.

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Old
08-15-2010, 02:00 AM
  #48
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I'm glad others keyed in. Sure Pyatt is in as an NHL'er got signed so he's out, he made it.

But MaxPac isn't, not sure I'm ready to exclude him.

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Old
08-15-2010, 07:51 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
We are so deep our 4th line will be set for years, good work braintrust.
What's this 'our' ****? Aren't you just clinging to our bandwagon, or the oilers? It's hard to tell - maybe wait until the season starts, then 'pick' a team

Nice avatar

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Old
08-15-2010, 09:13 AM
  #50
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I can only go based on what I've read, but do the majority of you agree that Kristo is a higher prospect than Tinordi and Leblanc?

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