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Where would Fedor Tyutin rank on our present blue line?

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Old
08-15-2010, 06:08 AM
  #26
Ola
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That kind of depends. Tyutin of today could basically be our nr 1... He have stepped up for the CBJ.

I mean, Staal have not stepped up yet. It will come, and when it does he will fly past Toots on any depth chart, but as of yet -- Staal is not a complete D.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only D who provides an all around game for us is Rozsival. MDZ is not complete, I am a tremendous fan of him. But you don't get around the fact that he is so young and that always shows. Rozi does it all, even when he sucks. For some thats a big contradiction. But thats because so many in rangerland only look for bits and pices from the game a D really provides. Like misstakes are bad, pts are good and hits are good. Everything else? They don't see. Then you see statements like "any D in HFD would be better then Rozsival". While in reality thats like saying that Hollweg could replace Drury. Just like Drury provides a lot Hollweg don't, Rozsival provides a lot that many of our other D's don't provide. Especially when it comes to taking care of pucks and getting them up ice again. Something thats extremely important in the game today.

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08-15-2010, 07:43 AM
  #27
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Probably as good or maybe a little better than Girardi....

Still thought it was a good trade for Zherdev...

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08-15-2010, 09:02 AM
  #28
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The trade didn't work out great in the end, but I certainly don't miss Tyutin. Although he was smart positionally, and a decent skater, he was also one of the worst puck-handling defensemen I ever saw...he booted the puck constantly, couldn't get it out of his skates, etc.

A lot of folks on here have "Hall-of-Fame hindsight" - building a player into something he's not (and never was) because he's no longer a Ranger. This guy is clearly not Zubov or Norstrom - those were "ones who got away".

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08-15-2010, 09:05 AM
  #29
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#3 d-man - better than Girardi, but not quite as good as Rozsival.

Staal - Rozsival
Tyutin - Girardi
DZ - ________

Making the Tyutin for Zherdev trade was a no brainer at the time (because we had just brought in Redden and had a pitiful offensive lineup), but there's no question we'd like to undo the Redden and Tyutin moves with 20/20 hindsight.

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08-15-2010, 09:33 AM
  #30
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2-3 easily, definitley ahead of Girardi....by far.

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08-15-2010, 09:59 AM
  #31
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My thinking is he's a solid 2nd pairing

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08-15-2010, 11:11 AM
  #32
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A lot of you should watch other teams more often. The ridiculous undervaluing of Girardi's and Rozsival's game is funny.

B/c of where I am, I get a random mix of NHL games on the cable provider (I watch NYR games on the computer) and as a result end up watching all of the teams. Compared to most other dmen in the league that I saw last year, Girardi and Rozsival were above average. They may not be the type of dmen you want but in terms of defensive play, moving the puck out and not taking penalties, they were better than most dmen.

I don't know where Tyutin would fit in, but it wouldn't automatically be above Girardi and Rozsival.

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08-15-2010, 11:40 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
A lot of you should watch other teams more often. The ridiculous undervaluing of Girardi's and Rozsival's game is funny.

B/c of where I am, I get a random mix of NHL games on the cable provider (I watch NYR games on the computer) and as a result end up watching all of the teams. Compared to most other dmen in the league that I saw last year, Girardi and Rozsival were above average. They may not be the type of dmen you want but in terms of defensive play, moving the puck out and not taking penalties, they were better than most dmen.

I don't know where Tyutin would fit in, but it wouldn't automatically be above Girardi and Rozsival.

Ranger fans tend to over emphasize the games at both ends of the extreme. It's just the NY way. Always has been.

Dan is lucky Redden is the confirmed whipping boy for this franchise. The Philadelphia incident could have snowballed into a VERY rough season. Its his unassuming solid play that saves him, along with the big target on Reddens back

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08-15-2010, 11:43 AM
  #34
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But thats because so many in rangerland only look for bits and pices from the game a D really provides. Like misstakes are bad, pts are good and hits are good. Everything else? They don't see.
I agree with that.

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Especially when it comes to taking care of pucks and getting them up ice again. Something thats extremely important in the game today.
But I disagree with your assessment of Staal. I think the above quote is one of the areas (besides being able to stifle the opposition's best players) he really excels at.

I also don't think you can say (at this point in their careers) that Staal is significantly worse than Rozsival in terms of managing the puck in the offensive zone. Rozy of 2-3 yrs ago? It's not close. But Rozy of last year was a shadow of his former self.

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08-15-2010, 12:53 PM
  #35
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he'd be a very nice guy to have on the second pair, I certainly miss his hip checks. That and I might not be the only person wearing a tyutin jersey to games if he was still here.

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08-15-2010, 01:39 PM
  #36
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he'd be a very nice guy to have on the second pair, I certainly miss his hip checks. That and I might not be the only person wearing a tyutin jersey to games if he was still here.
Are you the dude that wears the kilt?

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08-15-2010, 04:42 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
he'd be a very nice guy to have on the second pair, I certainly miss his hip checks. That and I might not be the only person wearing a tyutin jersey to games if he was still here.
I still wear my Tyutin jersey to games



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(And I'm not a "dude"; don't wear a kilt just skirts )

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08-15-2010, 05:04 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by donpaulo View Post
Tyutin is a defensive defenseman, read little offense

I think he is perhaps a 2nd pairing defense for NY

but I don't think he displaces Staal, Girardi, Rozi or MDZ

so he would be on the 3rd pairing and actually would make a nice pairing with Gilroy
He's had 34 and 32 points the last 2 years while playing 23:31 per game. MDZ isn't close to ready to play 20+ minutes a night. Tyutin would easily be a top 4 dman for us and possibly top 2.

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08-15-2010, 10:19 PM
  #39
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Give it a year or two and I'm fairly confident he'd rank 4th or 5th.

Hindsight is 20/20, I still don't think it was a bad trade.

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08-16-2010, 03:59 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Ranger fans tend to over emphasize the games at both ends of the extreme. It's just the NY way. Always has been.

Dan is lucky Redden is the confirmed whipping boy for this franchise. The Philadelphia incident could have snowballed into a VERY rough season. Its his unassuming solid play that saves him, along with the big target on Reddens back
True, Redden has taken the heat from the other dmen but hopefully his demotion will motivate them to not be the next whipping boy.

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08-16-2010, 06:31 AM
  #41
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I agree with that.

But I disagree with your assessment of Staal. I think the above quote is one of the areas (besides being able to stifle the opposition's best players) he really excels at.

I also don't think you can say (at this point in their careers) that Staal is significantly worse than Rozsival in terms of managing the puck in the offensive zone. Rozy of 2-3 yrs ago? It's not close. But Rozy of last year was a shadow of his former self.
Agreed; however -- Staal is not the type who you get that from on a shift per shift basis game in and game out. To really take charge don't come natrually from him -- yet.

Now I am kind of on thin ice, since getting a dynamic presence on the blueline on a night by night basis from Rozi isn't exactly a statement everyone would agree with.

And from a top D, thats really what you look more then anything else. Like look at two former Rangers; Tom Poti and Kim Johnson. Tom Poti logged the most minutes in Washington and for the Islanders before that -- for a long time. He logged more then anyone else on those teams. Kim Johnson was a nr 1 D (logged the most minutes) for a top 3 team in the entire NHL (Philly), for several years. That shows something, especially when it comes to Poti. You don't play your most solid D the most, you play the best dynamic D you have the most. Because if you don't get that well planned, offensive minded, play on the puck down low in your own end on a regular basis the game will slip away from you. You won't make many misstakes, but the pucks sent out of the zone will start to come back at you in a hurry in the long run. The other teams will adjust to you et c.

Rozi can face that.

My point is this. I don't know how many times I've heard people at this board complain that our nr 1 or nr 2 or nr 3 D in NY easily is the worst D in the entire NHL and easily would be replaced by aaaannnnnyyyyonnnnee in HFD. Poti, Rozi, Malik -- we have heard it so many times. The thing is -- put 6 Brooks Orpiks on any blueline in the league and I really wonder if there is a forward lineup in this league that could take that team to the PO's. Well other then NJ's maybe...

Why? Orpik is a darn good D! I agree, he is. But there is nothing easier in the game of hockey then to play against a blueline that you can read exactly how they are going to play. For example: Orpik won't deke a forechecker 5 times in a season. So all you need to do is send one player in on him and you know that he will pass the puck. Under pressure -- Orpik won't make a risky pass. He will 1. lift the puck out, 2. make a shorter safe pass to the left or 3. mak a shorter safe pass to the right. How easy isn't it to design a defense against those options? You have 5 players on the ice, 1 is lost by pressuring Orpik, but you have 4 left and only two options to cut off. Before the lockout the 1st option (lifting the puck out) was a good option. But these days when you can't clutch and grab odds are that it will come back at you in a hurry. Very good teams will slaughter any team that uses that option a lot.

Imagine instead that you instead of a Orpik have a D who will make 2 mega blunders per game (something not even Rozi have been able to do more then for shorter stretches) -- but that D also can step around a forechecker once in a while. Turn away from the forchecker. Make a short give and go around the forechecker. The defending team losses the forechecker instantly. The two guys who are cutting off the shorter passing options are screwed, they can only help on the back check. Then the defending team have to scramble to get back. They can never be safe. The defending team never know what they will get.

And Rozi, while de facto not exactly being good at -- provides that. He knows who and how many is coming at him, if he get angle on a forechecker he will expose him instantly and take a few stepps up ice. He can take a hit and still turn up ice. He works the give's and goe's. He is constantly trying to find ways to blowopen the defense for just the shortest time, but still, when he retrieves the puck. You can't do without that. Staal? Last season, you didn't get it at that level constantly.

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08-16-2010, 07:02 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
A lot of you should watch other teams more often. The ridiculous undervaluing of Girardi's and Rozsival's game is funny.

B/c of where I am, I get a random mix of NHL games on the cable provider (I watch NYR games on the computer) and as a result end up watching all of the teams. Compared to most other dmen in the league that I saw last year, Girardi and Rozsival were above average. They may not be the type of dmen you want but in terms of defensive play, moving the puck out and not taking penalties, they were better than most dmen.

I don't know where Tyutin would fit in, but it wouldn't automatically be above Girardi and Rozsival.
I do agree... The Rangers defense as it is now is good and should be considered top 12-15 in the NHL.... Every little mistake seems to get magnified and blown out of proportion while not even realizing the solid good plays these defenseman do make every game.

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08-16-2010, 10:09 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by donpaulo View Post
Tyutin is a defensive defenseman, read little offense

I think he is perhaps a 2nd pairing defense for NY

but I don't think he displaces Staal, Girardi, Rozi or MDZ

so he would be on the 3rd pairing and actually would make a nice pairing with Gilroy
little offense? he would've ranked 1st in rangers d in points in '09 and second behind DZ in '10.

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08-16-2010, 10:15 AM
  #44
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Give it a year or two and I'm fairly confident he'd rank 4th or 5th.

Hindsight is 20/20, I still don't think it was a bad trade.
I didnt think it was a bad trade at the time, but hindsight should give you the perspective to admit it was a bad trade now.

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08-16-2010, 10:43 AM
  #45
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Hindsight is 20/20, I still don't think it was a bad trade.
That's exactly why hindsight is a valuable tool. That's why it's criminal not to use it in sports. It's not a question of whether it was a bad trade at the time. It's not really relevant right now, is it? In hindsight, it was a bad trade. In reality, it was a bad trade. In every significant aspect to this organization and it's fan base today, it was a bad trade. In 2008 it was a gamble deemed worth taking and would require hindsight to evaluate it's consequences.

The fact that you have people slotting him 5th-7th on the depth chart of this team's D in a poorly veiled attempt to justify the trade and their support of that trade kind of speaks for itself... speaks to the credibility of this forum in general.

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08-16-2010, 10:54 AM
  #46
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That's exactly why hindsight is a valuable tool. That's why it's criminal not to use it in sports. It's not a question of whether it was a bad trade at the time. It's not really relevant right now, is it? In hindsight, it was a bad trade. In reality, it was a bad trade. In every significant aspect to this organization and it's fan base today, it was a bad trade. In 2008 it was a gamble deemed worth taking and would require hindsight to evaluate it's consequences.

The fact that you have people slotting him 5th-7th on the depth chart of this team's D in a poorly veiled attempt to justify the trade and their support of that trade kind of speaks for itself... speaks to the credibility of this forum in general.
Our defense still looks like it's going to be very good and we took a chance on a 60 point forward that looked like he could've (and still could be...) produced much more at some point in his career. I don't see anything wrong with taking gambles, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Blue Jackets won this trade. You'd be surprised to see how many Blue Jackets fans don't really appreciate Tyutin either.

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08-16-2010, 10:55 AM
  #47
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I love that people are ready to make Tyutin out to be worlds better than Girardi when they probably haven't seen more than one or two games of Tyutin in the past two years.

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08-16-2010, 11:21 AM
  #48
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Our defense still looks like it's going to be very good and we took a chance on a 60 point forward that looked like he could've (and still could be...) produced much more at some point in his career. I don't see anything wrong with taking gambles, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Blue Jackets won this trade. You'd be surprised to see how many Blue Jackets fans don't really appreciate Tyutin either.
It does? Thats news to me. Im worried as hell about this year's defense, especially the 3rd pair. It would have been really nice to have a young, yet seasoned, guy like Tyutin around to handle the load.

As for "our defense still looks like its going to be very good," I was hearing the same thing in 2008 when the Tyutin/Zherdev trade went down. Everyone making that point had Sanguinetti penciled in for a roster spot in the near future....things change.

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08-16-2010, 11:42 AM
  #49
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Our defense still looks like it's going to be very good and we took a chance on a 60 point forward that looked like he could've (and still could be...) produced much more at some point in his career. I don't see anything wrong with taking gambles, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Blue Jackets won this trade. You'd be surprised to see how many Blue Jackets fans don't really appreciate Tyutin either.
Sure, all that's fine. In fact, that sort of philosophy should make it easier to evaluate trades in hindsight and be honest about the consequences. Sather also doesn't see anything wrong with gambles. You could say it's how he views his entire profession. Good gambles can change a franchise significantly for the better for a decade. A bad one can plummet it into the depths of despair for equally as long. People don't want to over-analyze gambles like the Jessiman pick. They don't want to use "hindsight". It's too convenient. It's unfair. It's... well... it's completely accurate and does give insight into the reality of decision making. And that's why the final product that adds up over years goes without accountability.

As to Tyutin's level of appreciation by the Columbus fan base... it's par the course. They know he's their #1/2 defenseman. They know he isn't spectacular. They know he isn't going to be spectacular. He logs tons of minutes. They notice the mistakes. They notice the spectacular. They don't notice the solid. They don't notice the reliable. Fans are fans no matter what team it is. Just look at the Girardi and Rozy threads here. There are "fans" that are willing to dump them for nothing. "Addition by subtraction" in their minds. And they are dead serious. And they think they know what they are talking about. They'd bet there houses on it. Those aren't the fans you want to listen to for opinions that reflect reality. Watching the games is best. And if you want an opinion, the coaches (TOI for example) and beat writers tell a better story of what's going on with a team.

Tyutin has been exceptional on Columbus for what he has been asked to do. You think there are many defenseman that you can ask to step up in all three zones and anchor a defense... and they actually DO step up? Does that sound easy for somebody with limited elite level ability? If you're not spectacular, the fans as a whole will never appreciate you.

As for him in comparison to Girardi... I'm personally somebody who appreciates Girardi. I think he is vital on this team. Vital. But he has never been as good as Tyutin when they played together. They did benefit from each other. That is true. But IMHO, Tyutin was the guy that Girardi relied on more so. But it was mutual. Since Tyutin left, he HAS stepped up. He has played better. He has grown. I don't know that you can say that Girardi has had to or been asked to. Staal is the clear cut #1 Dman. He is looked to as the anchor on D for this team. Whether there are bumps in the road or not, he is in that position and is expected to answer the call of duty (I'm pretty sure he will with flying colors at that). And then Rozy is pretty much asked to either share as the next all situations D-man with Girardi or actually he is outright considered that guy. But they where very similar in there defensive and offensive responsibilities. Of course DelZotto pretty much settled a lot of that by default. Staal and DelZotto make things very clear for the coaches and the rest of the defenseman with respect to roles and needs.

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08-16-2010, 12:29 PM
  #50
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Are you the dude that wears the kilt?
I am not, but I certainly understand his reasons: kilts are tremendously comfortable.

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