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Players who got too much credit for the success of others

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08-20-2010, 02:00 PM
  #1
I Hate Chris Butler
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Players who got too much credit for the success of others

.... and players who didn't get enough.

Who are some great examples? I think two examples right off the bat for players who get too much credit for the success of others are Mario Lemieux and Jarome Iginla. Don't get me wrong, I love Captain Iggy but I feel he gets more credit than he deserves. People (myself included) say Iginla makes everyone around him a better player and he does. However, it was pretty ridiculous once Cammy left town and fans were saying how he was a product of Iginla. Cammy still scored at 39 goal pace in Montreal, and was their best skater in the playoffs. The only thing Cammalleri suffered on was assists.

For Mario, it's the who Jagr debate. "Jagr racked up so much points because of Mario!" which I just don't believe. Jagr won FIVE Art Ross Trophies. Of those 5, only ONE was with Lemieux on the roster. Jagr gets underrated a lot because of this (as evidenced by all of the ridiculous Forsberg and Lindros comparison threads). Jagr on his own was the best player in the League without Lemieux there.

The best example ever of someone who doesn't get enough credit is Adam Oates. I don't even need to explain why because I'm sure you all know.

But, I want to know who are other players who received too much credit and who didn't get enough?

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08-20-2010, 02:33 PM
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Eric Staal makes everyone around him a lot better.

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08-20-2010, 03:06 PM
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tarheelhockey
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I can't think of a conceivable way to argue that Lemieux gets too much credit. He was quite possibly the most talented forward of all time.

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08-20-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
.... and players who didn't get enough.

Who are some great examples? I think two examples right off the bat for players who get too much credit for the success of others are Mario Lemieux and Jarome Iginla. Don't get me wrong, I love Captain Iggy but I feel he gets more credit than he deserves. People (myself included) say Iginla makes everyone around him a better player and he does. However, it was pretty ridiculous once Cammy left town and fans were saying how he was a product of Iginla. Cammy still scored at 39 goal pace in Montreal, and was their best skater in the playoffs. The only thing Cammalleri suffered on was assists.

For Mario, it's the who Jagr debate. "Jagr racked up so much points because of Mario!" which I just don't believe. Jagr won FIVE Art Ross Trophies. Of those 5, only ONE was with Lemieux on the roster. Jagr gets underrated a lot because of this (as evidenced by all of the ridiculous Forsberg and Lindros comparison threads). Jagr on his own was the best player in the League without Lemieux there.

The best example ever of someone who doesn't get enough credit is Adam Oates. I don't even need to explain why because I'm sure you all know.

But, I want to know who are other players who received too much credit and who didn't get enough?
Mario getting credit for Jagr was my first thought.

Apparently Kovalev and Straka also inflated Jagr's numbers, even though he out scored them by 30 or so points per year.

Jagr just gets no respect.

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08-20-2010, 04:38 PM
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Everybody will think I'm crazy, but...

Gordie Howe.

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08-20-2010, 05:58 PM
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Duh, Messier.

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08-20-2010, 06:11 PM
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Rhiessan71
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Mario....really???
Funny that I don't recall Jagr being around when Mario put up 199 points

Sorry but taking credit away from Mario because of Jagr is in the top 5 silliest things I have read on these boards, right up there with "Orr wasn't that fast".

The second highest PPG season in history was Mario's 160 in 60 and Jagr had a mere 94 points that year...don't be daft.

If there's two players in my mind that don't get enough credit, it's StevieY in the 80's/early 90's and the other is easily Dale Hawerchuk.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 08-20-2010 at 06:16 PM.
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Old
08-20-2010, 06:38 PM
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SidGenoMario
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The guys getting upset need to reread the first post. What he said was right, and it wasn't discounting Mario in any way.

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08-20-2010, 06:40 PM
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People don't give Mario credit for Jagr. They give him credit for Rob Brown and to a lesser degree, Kevin Stevens

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08-20-2010, 06:43 PM
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Lindros often gets too much credit for making John leclair. Leclair proved that he didn't need lindros in the 96 world cup, and produced points at about the same rate when lindros was out of the lineup.

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08-20-2010, 06:49 PM
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I'm still on the fence about Paul Coffey. The cause and effect issue gets mentioned a lot regarding him, and I'm still on the fence as far as who was which. A great offensive defenseman that got to play with Gretzky, Lemieux, and then Yzerman and Fedorov.

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08-20-2010, 07:12 PM
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I'm still on the fence about Paul Coffey. The cause and effect issue gets mentioned a lot regarding him, and I'm still on the fence as far as who was which. A great offensive defenseman that got to play with Gretzky, Lemieux, and then Yzerman and Fedorov.
Coffey was great. Yes, he had the fortune of playing with some of the best players ever, but he didn't just "come along for the ride", he was an important part of making those teams what they were. 5 seasons with 100+ points as a defenseman can't all be lying. If he were "mearly" on par with other great offensive D-men, he'd be hovering around 1 or 2 seasons like Leetch and all the other non-Orr D-men. He certainly wouldn't have broken some of Orr's records and nearly all his playoff records.

Coffey is, at least in my opinion, the 2nd greatest offensive Dman of all time. Only Orr was better at offense from that position. Of course, Orr was also better at defense, but that's not really part of this discussion (which shouldn't be about "is Coffey better than Orr", which we all know he wasn't, but whether or not Coffey was a great player on his own merit, which I'm sure most will agree he was).

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08-20-2010, 07:28 PM
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Phil Esposito gets too much respect from the success/work of Hodge and Cashman...


...and Phil Esposito gets way, way, way too little respect due to the presence of Orr, and to a lesser extent earlier in his career from the presence of Hull. (note that I'm not saying the other way around...that either of those players get too much respect from the success of Espo)

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08-20-2010, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
The guys getting upset need to reread the first post. What he said was right, and it wasn't discounting Mario in any way.
I'm sorry, is there another way of reading this...."I think two examples right off the bat for players who get too much credit for the success of others are Mario Lemieux and Jarome Iginla."

Especially when Jagr himself, credits Mario with showing him how to get to that next level, same as Mario credits Wayne for showing him.

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08-20-2010, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
.... and players who didn't get enough.

Who are some great examples? I think two examples right off the bat for players who get too much credit for the success of others are Mario Lemieux and Jarome Iginla. Don't get me wrong, I love Captain Iggy but I feel he gets more credit than he deserves. People (myself included) say Iginla makes everyone around him a better player and he does. However, it was pretty ridiculous once Cammy left town and fans were saying how he was a product of Iginla. Cammy still scored at 39 goal pace in Montreal, and was their best skater in the playoffs. The only thing Cammalleri suffered on was assists.

For Mario, it's the who Jagr debate. "Jagr racked up so much points because of Mario!" which I just don't believe. Jagr won FIVE Art Ross Trophies. Of those 5, only ONE was with Lemieux on the roster. Jagr gets underrated a lot because of this (as evidenced by all of the ridiculous Forsberg and Lindros comparison threads). Jagr on his own was the best player in the League without Lemieux there.

The best example ever of someone who doesn't get enough credit is Adam Oates. I don't even need to explain why because I'm sure you all know.

But, I want to know who are other players who received too much credit and who didn't get enough?
I think on the HOH board you won't find a person belittling Jagr's accomplishments. If it happens he strongly gets corrected. Jagr proved once Mario and to a lesser degree, Francis left that he did not need superstars to perform. His best NHL season is probably 1999 along with 1996. In 1999 he had Straka playing with him. Take a gander at Straka's stats when he isn't a teammate of Jagr's.

Mario was just such a dominating prescence in his career that I don't think you can ever give him enough credit for what he did for players. Early in Jagr's career we assumed he was feeding off Lemieux which ended up not being true but as for some other players (Brown, Young) it was obvious who helped who.

Oates I agree with you on. The common denominator is too hard to ignore. He guided two wingers (Hull, Neely) on separate occasions to 50-in-50. A shame the man is still waiting to get into the HHOF. Gretzky, Lemieux and even Orr did help a teammate reach that accomplishment. Let's not forget that Esposito and Kurri weren't exactly bums out there either.

For a man who gets too much credit would be Claude Lemieux. Yes, some decent postseasons, but he was far too feast or famine for my liking. You never knew which Claude would show up. And he never elevated the play of his teammates that I ever saw

I know this has been beaten to death on another thread but Osgood is an example of a guy who is a classic case of being spoonfed the success he's had in his career and has actually fooled a legion of people into thinking he belongs in the HHOF

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Old
08-21-2010, 02:34 PM
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Devils defence made brodeur look good

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08-21-2010, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Everybody will think I'm crazy, but...

Gordie Howe.
Interesting choice. Some of us like to assume that since Howe dominated the league statistically like Gretzky and Howe, that he also likely inflated the scoring of his linemates like they did. But maybe not.

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08-21-2010, 06:38 PM
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Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Interesting choice. Some of us like to assume that since Howe dominated the league statistically like Gretzky and Howe, that he also likely inflated the scoring of his linemates like they did. But maybe not.
I dunno....anyone that can rack up 41 points at the age of 52, you kinda have to give him the benefit of the doubt imo.
Hell, anyone that can even put in an entire 80 game season at the age of 52

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08-21-2010, 07:39 PM
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Duh, Messier.
Messier did come to mind and maybe Gretzky, but only because like Lemiuex in the earlier example, some people undervalue how good to great some of the players they both played with.

truthfully this is one of the harder questions to even ponder because it is almost entirely subjective.

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Old
08-21-2010, 09:23 PM
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Jagr seemed to have more fire when he played with Mario, although, Jagr did put up some great numbers alone later on. I think they kinda each helped out each other in 95/96 and 96/97, two of Jagr's best year on a per game basis! But Mario sure carried him until the end of 93/94. That season that Jagr had alone in 94/95 seemed to make Jagr more commited and the return of Mario the next season helped him even more!

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08-21-2010, 10:55 PM
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Denis Potvin doesn't get near enough credit for how important he was to the Islanders - I rate him as easily the most important player on that team, ahead of Bossy and Trottier.

When Potvin missed most of 79-80, production from everyone else on that team plummeted and they were barely better than .500 with him out of the lineup. Likewise, when he retired in '88, the Isles completely went into the toilet the following year.

To me, Potvin was consistently the best defender in the NHL from 1975-1984 when he was healthy, and should have won several more Norris Trophies than he actually did, but for his injury issues.

On that same team, it's worth noting that Mike Bossy kept producing no matter who he played with (and that 'checkers' Sutter and Tonelli turned into 100-point guys on his line) but that Trottier and Gilles fell of the face of the earth when removed from Bossy.

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08-21-2010, 11:22 PM
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Sakic gets a little too much credit. I always hear, "Well Forsberg had Sakic" Yet I rarely hear it the other way around. Sakic and Forsberg helped each other out tremendously in their respective careers.

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08-22-2010, 06:14 PM
  #23
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Sakic gets a little too much credit. I always hear, "Well Forsberg had Sakic" Yet I rarely hear it the other way around. Sakic and Forsberg helped each other out tremendously in their respective careers.
I would've agreed up until the last half of the 2006-07 season when Sakic was matching Thornton point-for-point in an attempt to get the Avalanche in the playoffs. That's all the evidence I need in order to be convinced that he could've done it all the same without Forsberg... though I maintain that Forsberg was the better player of the two when reasonably healthy.


And I find that Messier gets too little credit. 2nd All-Time in Points, didn't eat up Gordie Howe-type minutes, and completely elevated his game when he was the #1 center to the point that even without Art Ross Trophies, he was arguably as valuable as Mario Lemieux and maybe even more valuable than post-Oiler Gretzky. And where is he on HOH 100? Like... 22nd... well behind Lidstrom... who couldn't beat Pronger, Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, St. Louis, or Theodore for a Hart nomination, let alone two outright wins.

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08-22-2010, 09:03 PM
  #24
Big Phil
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And I find that Messier gets too little credit. 2nd All-Time in Points, didn't eat up Gordie Howe-type minutes, and completely elevated his game when he was the #1 center to the point that even without Art Ross Trophies, he was arguably as valuable as Mario Lemieux and maybe even more valuable than post-Oiler Gretzky. And where is he on HOH 100? Like... 22nd... well behind Lidstrom... who couldn't beat Pronger, Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, St. Louis, or Theodore for a Hart nomination, let alone two outright wins.
Yeah I'm a big Messier supporter and I think 22nd is too low for him. As much as I love Messier I remember doing a poll a while back with Messier vs. Gretzky 1989-1999. Gretzky won, and should have so I wouldn't go that far in putting Messier ahead of him in that time frame but as crazy as it sounds I too think Mess can get underrated at times.

- Two Harts
- 6 Cups
- 7 trips to the final
- 1984, 1987, 1991 Canada Cup wins
- 2nd all-time in points
- 2nd all-time in playoff points
- captained two teams to the Cup
- 4 first team all-stars, one 2nd team all-stars

The guy brought it and while he was never shafted of a Selke he brought a two-way game and was superb on faceoffs. There aren't a lot of centers I have ahead of him other than the obvious ones. When it comes down to comparing Messier to Trottier or Clarke or Yzerman or even Sakic I rarely hesitate to pick Moose.

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08-22-2010, 09:16 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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I dunno....anyone that can rack up 41 points at the age of 52, you kinda have to give him the benefit of the doubt imo.
Hell, anyone that can even put in an entire 80 game season at the age of 52
Whalers made the playoffs that year, but the next season, without Gordie, they came in 4th from last.

Its good to have a legend on the team.

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