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Dionne talks Habs and Francophones... "Not the Flying Frenchmen anymore"

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Old
08-20-2010, 02:20 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
Anybody thinks the Canadiens were used as a political weapon back then?

You know a Canadiens team loaded with french guys..with their right to draft local players....
No, since they never had the right to draft local players. Dionne is all over the place in this article.


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08-20-2010, 02:35 PM
  #52
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1) The abolition of the territorial right to draft two Québécois.
Territorial rights for 2 Quebecois brought in very little, either Mario Tremblay or Rejean Houle (I forget which) was brought in with that clause and that was about it for anyone to do anything with MTL.

On the original topic: The general issue is that the Quebec leagues all the way up and down aren't doing very well to produce quality players and even if that was fixed tommorow we'd wait half a decade or more before seeing real results at the draft so the Habs could tap some Flying Frenchmen talent.

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08-20-2010, 02:36 PM
  #53
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I think it's weird that people are just not able to understand how it would be important for quebecers to have quebecers on the team.

People talk about the tradition and the history but when it comes to have players from here on the team, now it's stupid and irrelevant and "we just want to win". That's without talking about the hate against nationalists on this forum.

I agree that you don't want to have 23 quebecers and play for .300, but to see how people do not even understand how it would be important for a nation to have some of our own people in a team that represents such a big part of our culture for a century... I mean, how closed-minded can you be?

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08-20-2010, 02:38 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
I think it's weird that people are just not able to understand how it would be important for quebecers to have quebecers on the team.

People talk about the tradition and the history but when it comes to have players from here on the team, now it's stupid and irrelevant and "we just want to win". That's without talking about the hate against nationalists on this forum.

I agree that you don't want to have 23 quebecers and play for .300, but to see how people do not even understand how it would be important for a nation to have some of our own people in a team that represents such a big part of our culture for a century... I mean, how closed-minded can you be?
Quebec is not a nation, hate to break it to you.


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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'd spell it Ré-jaune. Réjaune seems to think on a simplistic Animal Farm level: French Canadian good, English (or Russian, Swedish, Finnish, Czech, Slovak, etc.) bad. Seriously, several things have stood in the way of the Habs' assembling a Flying Frenchman team apart from any prejudice of Trevor Timmins in favor of USHL or NCAA talent:

1) The abolition of the territorial right to draft two Québécois.
2) Expansion from 6 to 12 and ultimately 30 teams, which dilutes the pool of worthwhile francophone players in every round of the draft.
3) The unwillingness of the original Molson ownership to pay top salaries, which resulted in the trade of several francophone stars (e.g., Damphousse).
4) Inept drafting by three Québécois GMs in a row (Sege Savard, Réjean Houle, and André Savard).
5) An unwillingness of Québécois free agents to come to Montréal E.g., Vincent Lecavalier) and a desire to get out of Montréal (e.g., Guillaume Latendresse).
6) Influx of European and American talent.
7) The inability of the QMJHL and lower leagues in the province to develop NHL-worthy players.
Very insightful post!

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08-20-2010, 02:41 PM
  #55
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It's a take it leave it type of article. Clearly Take it to explain to the Tremblay, Lajoie and Therrien that you can't have the same numbers that we used to have in the past when you understand that the Q doesn't provide the players they used to provide, that we have 30 teams now in this league and that the players come from a whole lot of places in the world nowadays. So I like the article for the reality check it gives to the extremists.

Now, the Leave it has to do with the fact that nobody will blame the Habs for not being able to draft Lecavalier and such guys that were, are and will be unavailable due to our rank in the draft. I mean, you can't do what you can't do. It doesn't mean that there would not have been better choices for some picks. Doesn't mean that an extra effort should not have been put forward as far as quality of the scouts we had but more importantly.....their importance at the draft table. As far as the number of Québécois drafted, while the quantity isn't there anymore, the Habs are still 15th throughout the league for most Québécois drafted. Are we talking about 14 dumb teams? Probably not.

Unfortunately, the way this article has been written, it leaves the extremists a whole lot of fun to destroy it.

But the message remains. The numbers aren't there anymore. The Habs can't draft guys that are unavailable when it's time to talk. But they can do a much better job. That's all what I'm saying.

Aside from the draft table, I still believe that a guy like Bouillon should have had some room as a bottom D than any of the guys we had to replace him. Surprisingly, he's doing a great job as #4 in Nashville. He was doing a great job here but was underappreciated. Latendresse was progressing. Bégin was giving his heart and his teeth for this team. But hey, he got an accidental 4-minute penalty once that placed him in the most disgraceful hockey player in the planet. Laperrière was once available and we were never interested in that kind of player even when he was 5 years younger. Lombardi was also available at one point. So was Beauchemin and other players like that......We are NOT talking about Bantam B type of players here. There's talent here. We didn't pursue them. We would NOT have lost in quality if we would have been interested in getting or keeping any of those guys or other guys I'm not talking about. So this is another example when we could have done better. You respond to whoever is interested in having a local touch to the team WITHOUT sacrificying the overall talent of the team.

NOBODY, I repeat, NOBODY want Christian Laflamme instead of Andrei Markov or Éric Landry instead of Mike Cammalleri.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 08-20-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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Old
08-20-2010, 02:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
I think it's weird that people are just not able to understand how it would be important for quebecers to have quebecers on the team.

People talk about the tradition and the history but when it comes to have players from here on the team, now it's stupid and irrelevant and "we just want to win". That's without talking about the hate against nationalists on this forum.

I agree that you don't want to have 23 quebecers and play for .300, but to see how people do not even understand how it would be important for a nation to have some of our own people in a team that represents such a big part of our culture for a century... I mean, how closed-minded can you be?
It's not that people don't understand, it's that they know how hard it is to get quality players from Quebec now. I'm not against having players from Quebec on the team (though I don't really care), but people have to realize how much the league has changed since the Habs had teams full of players from Quebec.

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08-20-2010, 03:03 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Quebec is not a nation, hate to break it to you.
If you say so.

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08-20-2010, 03:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
If you say so.
If you want to believe that, that's your choice. But don't state it like it's a fact, because it just isn't.

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08-20-2010, 03:06 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Quebec is not a nation, hate to break it to you.
SUP BRO http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/...tion-vote.html

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08-20-2010, 03:07 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish22100 View Post
It's not that people don't understand, it's that they know how hard it is to get quality players from Quebec now. I'm not against having players from Quebec on the team (though I don't really care), but people have to realize how much the league has changed since the Habs had teams full of players from Quebec.
I think it's another debate. People just wants to feel that the organization understand the importance of having quebecers on the team. Right now, with only Lapierre (and the choice of coaches in the AHL), it's really tough to see that effort.

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08-20-2010, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
If you want to believe that, that's your choice. But don't state it like it's a fact, because it just isn't.
Damn, once again

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08-20-2010, 03:08 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BoNeS42 View Post
A nation is a grouping of people who share real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government (web definition)

You see, the end is the sticking point to this grand declaration Quebec is indeed a nation. Last I checked, Bloc and PQ support was dwindling too. They can claim it's a nation all they want, but in the end, there's only one real nation in Canada.

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08-20-2010, 03:10 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
I think it's weird that people are just not able to understand how it would be important for quebecers to have quebecers on the team.

People talk about the tradition and the history but when it comes to have players from here on the team, now it's stupid and irrelevant and "we just want to win". That's without talking about the hate against nationalists on this forum.

I agree that you don't want to have 23 quebecers and play for .300, but to see how people do not even understand how it would be important for a nation to have some of our own people in a team that represents such a big part of our culture for a century... I mean, how closed-minded can you be?
I don't see many people that don't understand that... Nobody is against the idea. Most of us would like to see some local players performing well with the habs. There's difference big between wishing something and making it happen.

I'd like to see more local players on the team, but I don't think it's an easy thing to make happen so I don't blame the habs for not having more of them on the team.

Some people here make it sounds like if they would have been the gm in the last 20 years, we would have many good quebecers (Lecavalier, St-Louis, etc...), they would have draft mainly quebecers, so we would have Bergeron, Gagné, Giroux and Perron, but would still have known when not to draft quebecers so we would still have Plekanec and Markov. Let's not forget that all quebecers would wish to play here and they would have been able to sign them at bargain deals.

And all that didn't happened because of the incompetence of the management team, and the fact that they don't want Quebecers on the team.

Well I guess I'm closed-minded to think that it's not as easy as that…

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08-20-2010, 03:10 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
I think it's another debate. People just wants to feel that the organization understand the importance of having quebecers on the team. Right now, with only Lapierre (and the choice of coaches in the AHL), it's really tough to see that effort.
Who should they have hired instead (please be a bit original and don't say Tourigny or Vincent)? I want them to hire the right guy for the job, wether he speaks french or not. As for players, who could they have gotten this summer? With so little cap space, there's simply not much they could have done.

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08-20-2010, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
A nation is a grouping of people who share real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government (web definition)

You see, the end is the sticking point to this grand declaration Quebec is indeed a nation. Last I checked, Bloc and PQ support was dwindling too. They can claim it's a nation all they want, but in the end, there's only one real nation in Canada.
Dude, I wouldn't really bother spending too much time dwelling on this point. I know what you're saying, but this is straight from the article/mouth of the Prime Minister:

"The motion states: "That this House recognize that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada."

The prime minister has said he is using the word nation in a "cultural-sociological" rather than in a legal sense."

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08-20-2010, 03:20 PM
  #66
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Pretty much can't listen to this Captain Obvious repetitious crap anymore...

Its just the way it is for the time being and its too bad... maybe in a few seasons it will be different. So be it.

Its going to be an unbearable season in the media

blah-blah-blah


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08-20-2010, 03:21 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Dude, I wouldn't really bother spending too much time dwelling on this point. I know what you're saying, but this is straight from the article/mouth of the Prime Minister:

"The motion states: "That this House recognize that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada."

The prime minister has said he is using the word nation in a "cultural-sociological" rather than in a legal sense."
Fair enough. I'm aware of what the PM said, and I am proud to be both from Quebec and Canadian, but they're twisting the definition of what a nation really is.

Moving on.

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08-20-2010, 03:36 PM
  #68
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it would be nice if mike cammalleri, brian gionta, scott gomez, andrei markov and p.k. subban were quebecois. however, they are not. you can either complain continuously or cheer *this* team to win the stanley cup.

i find it interesting that i haven't caught louis leblanc's name once in the thread. or gabriel dumont.

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08-20-2010, 04:43 PM
  #69
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Giroux instead of Fischer

Gagné instead of Chouinard

Perron instead of Paccioretty

Bergeron instead of Uruquart...
Veilleux instead of Subban

Or does it only work when the guy we drafted sucks?

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08-20-2010, 04:46 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's a take it leave it type of article. Clearly Take it to explain to the Tremblay, Lajoie and Therrien that you can't have the same numbers that we used to have in the past when you understand that the Q doesn't provide the players they used to provide, that we have 30 teams now in this league and that the players come from a whole lot of places in the world nowadays. So I like the article for the reality check it gives to the extremists.

Now, the Leave it has to do with the fact that nobody will blame the Habs for not being able to draft Lecavalier and such guys that were, are and will be unavailable due to our rank in the draft. I mean, you can't do what you can't do. It doesn't mean that there would not have been better choices for some picks. Doesn't mean that an extra effort should not have been put forward as far as quality of the scouts we had but more importantly.....their importance at the draft table. As far as the number of Québécois drafted, while the quantity isn't there anymore, the Habs are still 15th throughout the league for most Québécois drafted. Are we talking about 14 dumb teams? Probably not.

Unfortunately, the way this article has been written, it leaves the extremists a whole lot of fun to destroy it.

But the message remains. The numbers aren't there anymore. The Habs can't draft guys that are unavailable when it's time to talk. But they can do a much better job. That's all what I'm saying.

Aside from the draft table, I still believe that a guy like Bouillon should have had some room as a bottom D than any of the guys we had to replace him. Surprisingly, he's doing a great job as #4 in Nashville. He was doing a great job here but was underappreciated. Latendresse was progressing. Bégin was giving his heart and his teeth for this team. But hey, he got an accidental 4-minute penalty once that placed him in the most disgraceful hockey player in the planet. Laperrière was once available and we were never interested in that kind of player even when he was 5 years younger. Lombardi was also available at one point. So was Beauchemin and other players like that......We are NOT talking about Bantam B type of players here. There's talent here. We didn't pursue them. We would NOT have lost in quality if we would have been interested in getting or keeping any of those guys or other guys I'm not talking about. So this is another example when we could have done better. You respond to whoever is interested in having a local touch to the team WITHOUT sacrificying the overall talent of the team.

NOBODY, I repeat, NOBODY want Christian Laflamme instead of Andrei Markov or Éric Landry instead of Mike Cammalleri.
Do you think THEY will understand your points better than mine ?

I am saying the same. Just in less words.

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08-20-2010, 04:46 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
A nation is a grouping of people who share real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, often possessing or seeking its own government (web definition)

You see, the end is the sticking point to this grand declaration Quebec is indeed a nation. Last I checked, Bloc and PQ support was dwindling too. They can claim it's a nation all they want, but in the end, there's only one real nation in Canada.
http://www.gouv.qc.ca/portail/quebec...ommun/?lang=fr

?

Oh and I'm far from being a ''yes'' voter but Quebec IS a nation. I believe the parliement of Canada has jurisprudence over your opinion.

As for the ''web definition'' you probably took from wikipedia all points indicate Quebec is a nation. We share a common history, culture, language, ethnic origin. We do have a governement but the sticking point to your definition is that nations ''often'' have a governement or seek one. Quebec is a nation, like the native americans (Crees, Innu, Algonquins) are nations. The problem is inherently related to people like you thinking the word nation=country.


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08-20-2010, 04:47 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Railman View Post
Veilleux instead of Subban

Or does it only work when the guy we drafted sucks?
When someone doesn't want to understand... .


Read Whitesnake. His answers are perfect and I totally agree with him.

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08-20-2010, 04:50 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If you think about it, it probably wouldn't require "stocking up". All it would take is that one French player that even kids outside Quebec grow up wanting to be like. That's what Montreal has been missing for, well, at least a decade. That one French guy that is so good that hockey fans in Quebec can look everyone else in the eye with pride and say "See, you wanna be like him, too." That was the power of players like Roy, and even Lecavalier to an extent.

Having a team full of Lapierres, Latendresses, and Begins, etc wouldn't achieve anything as no one outside Quebec has ever cared about them, and they did nothing to remind everyone else that quality hockey players can come from Quebec, too. And I think that's part of what it comes down to: even one star French player can help legitimize Quebec's relevance among top talent-producing areas, and that's where the pride derives from, imo, with extra bonus for those who have brought a championship "back home".
Yea, well that's fine and all, but it's not any easier to find. I'd love it if we could have a Qc superstar over here.
There aren't too many around the league and you probably won't get one through the draft unless you have a top pick and land on the right draft year.

But there reason I said it'd be interesting to see if they stock up on them. It's because guys like JC Lajoie aren't just talking about getting that big French player, they whine about Desjardins being moved. They're not talking about the Lapierres, Latendresses, Bouillons or Begins, they're talking about worst than that. They're talking about 26yo Goalies being moved around in AHL.

I can't disagree with anyone wanting a local superstar, of course I'm all for it as well. But the whiners aren't just talking about it, they whine.

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08-20-2010, 04:56 PM
  #74
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Yea, well that's fine and all, but it's not any easier to find. I'd love it if we could have a Qc superstar over here.
There aren't too many around the league and you probably won't get one through the draft unless you have a top pick and land on the right draft year.

But there reason I said it'd be interesting to see if they stock up on them. It's because guys like JC Lajoie aren't just talking about getting that big French player, they whine about Desjardins being moved. They're not talking about the Lapierres, Latendresses, Bouillons or Begins, they're talking about worst than that. They're talking about 26yo Goalies being moved around in AHL.

I can't disagree with anyone wanting a local superstar, of course I'm all for it as well. But the whiners aren't just talking about it, they whine.
This. wanting players like Lecavalier, St Louis and co is fine, they're good players ANd they're local kids...

but all the fuss about Desjardins ? come on, it's like if Calgary fans were mad their GM didnt draft a "local kid" from Utah since the kid speak english you know...

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08-20-2010, 05:05 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Dude, I wouldn't really bother spending too much time dwelling on this point. I know what you're saying, but this is straight from the article/mouth of the Prime Minister:

"The motion states: "That this House recognize that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada."

The prime minister has said he is using the word nation in a "cultural-sociological" rather than in a legal sense."
As an aspiring Poltical Scientist, I would that's a very good observation Ohashi. The whole argument depends on what the orginal poster's (the one Coldplay replied) conception of a nation is. If his conception of a nation is a cultural one then he is right(the original poster, I don't know his user name) if his conception of a nation is in the legal sense, that is a nation which govern itself, then he is wrong.

The whole debate is extremely blurry. I am not a francophone, but if you want some more interesting arguments on the debate, you should look back to the BNA act of 1867, which brought Canada to existence and not what Harper said. I believe the BNA act mentions that Canada becomes a union of it's two founding people's...It's not an exact quote, but it goes something like that, I can check my text book for further reference, so clearly someone even long ago recognized french Canadians(that's what they were known as before the word Quebecois was coined by the liberal's in the 60's) as a distinct people.

It's a really fun topic, I could suggest some readings that would be interesting.

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