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Old
08-21-2010, 01:44 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Who do we play at centre? John Mitchell? This isn't the time of the year to blow a huge hole in your lineup for more upside.
The only way it would make sense is if you could pick up a FA center after the deal, but I don't even know who's available so there's no point going into crazy hypotheticals.

The Oilers wouldn't trade MPS for Bozak on a talent basis, and the Leafs wouldn't do the trade because they'd be left with a gaping hole at center.

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08-21-2010, 01:47 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by RStar View Post
Opens up a hole where? MPS would be slotted to play on the first line. Bozak is the only one I can understand because he is expected to be your starting center, and trading him for a guy who should be a top winger on the Leafs would as you say open up a huge hole at the Leafs weakest position.
Gustavsson is likely to be our number one goalie as well. Value-wise, dealing him for MSP is a huge win for Toronto, but it's not a realistic deal on so many levels, and I hate the idea of dealing another talented young goalie. Giguere isn't the answer in Toronto, and he can't play 70+ games a year.

Kulemin is the only one that makes sense for Toronto, because MSP could theoretically replace him in the NHL. That said, do you really think MSP is ready for first line duty in the NHL? Seems like the sort of thinking that slowed Steen's development if you ask me. He was great in the SEL too, but he wasn't ready to be a full-time top six forward in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by RStar View Post
The Oilers wouldn't trade MPS for Bozak on a talent basis, and the Leafs wouldn't do the trade because they'd be left with a gaping hole at center.
Agreed, that's all I'm trying to say here.

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08-21-2010, 01:48 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
souray = waivers, waivers

kaberle >> svenson
Gunnarson > svenson
Always great to see a Canuck fan chime in. I'm pretty sure you know that is BS.

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08-21-2010, 05:31 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by HemskyToHall View Post
And if JFJ wanted Myers, they could have selected him.

Just because Kadri was picked higher doesn't mean he's the better prospect.
Never said anywhere Kadri is the better prospect. If he got picked before MPS, that simply implies Burke likes him better -- and has no reason to give up 2 pieces of our defence for him.

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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
I don't think you really appreciate the whole development process.

The Leafs have rarely had the patience to build a good player and I guess it kinda rubs off on their fans.

Leafs (not just with Kessel) have often traded away their draft picks or signed free agents and it hasn't worked out for them because you can never sign ALL of the good free agents(especially with the cap now) and end up getting exactly what you want with every signing.

Hall, Eberle, MPS and Omark aren't going anywhere.

Due to the existance of a salary cap, Edmonton's difficulties with attracting free agents and the lack luster bunch of free agents coming out year by year Edmonton can ill afford to trade away blue chip prospects.

If you look around the league most teams, with or without the second problem, aren't trading away blue-chip prospects. It's just suicide whether or not one team is overloaded with offensive or defensive prospects and weaker on the other.

There's absolutely nobody out there who's going to take a chance on someone else when they know they've got the real deal.

Example: (Let's ignore the value of players for a minute.)

L.A wants a winger and they're eyeballing Omark and think he might be for real and offer up Hickey.(Or vice versa with Edmonton wanting a solid offensive d-man and thinking Hickey is the real thing.)

L.A doesn't have Omark reporting to training camp or prospect camps. They hear what he can do and get to watch clips of videos of what his guy does, but they know there's no way they can believe in this guy as much as they believe in Hickey.

So regardless of if it's a good or a bad trade for them, the deal doesn't happen until their guy goes into a slump and starts to disappoint.

I don't think anyone here could ever believe it possible for Hall to be traded.

It's pretty much just as unlikely that Eberle, MPS or Omark will be traded unless they're offered an overpayment.
<<<<---Can we agree on that? If you can't agree on that then I think you're being unreasonable.

Edmonton needs more goal scorers and unless all of these guys prove themselves to be a big threat at the NHL level there's no incentive for them to trade em all away, right?

Take Joe Colborne, for example. Boston doesn't need a center right now. They need wingers or maybe and extra defenseman. They're SO overloaded at center with Savard, Bergeron, Sequin and Krejci. All of these guys capable of playing 2nd line center or better and looking damn good doing it.

I don't doubt the Joe Colborne is going to be a damn good player. He's as big a Thorton(will be when he fills out) and he's got all the tools needed to be that top 2 center.

Is Boston going to trade him?

Hell no.

Why mess with a good thing?

Mosquito-like Leafs fans need to buzz off.


Omark, MPS, Hall, Eberle and likely Hartikainen are all untouchable because they bring something to our line-up that we desperately need.
Please, please, please justify how Schenn, Kadri, Kaberle are worth less than MPS. Because the post I replied to says they all need to be thrown in the deal. You're post only looks into the best interests of your team, what if we are tying to build a core as well? I don't know about you, but thats our core. How does one give that up for a prospect we passed over, and that hasnt reached the nhl yet?

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08-21-2010, 05:36 PM
  #155
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Schenn I'd say is probably are equal in trade value, although MPS is a shiny new prospect and Schenn has been letting down a bit as of late.

Almost all rankings at the moment have MPS rated higher than Kadri on their lists, so you would assume that makes him more valuable in trade, although I'd say it is probably very close.

Kaberle is on the last year of his deal and is no way equal in value to MPS.

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08-21-2010, 05:36 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
This is trolling. If you can't recognize it, then you should re-evaluate. Please, think very hard about the concept of management groups, and the fact they (at times) change. Burke has made this team dramatically younger, and he has never traded away young talent for veterans while in Toronto.

So please, take this garbage elsewhere.
What are you talking about? Burke coughed up the 2nd overall pick at the 2010 entry draft and there are a lot of people that think he's also given Boston a top 5 draft pick at the next draft.

For what? A damn good winger. Not even a superstar.

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08-21-2010, 05:52 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RStar View Post
Schenn I'd say is probably are equal in trade value, although MPS is a shiny new prospect and Schenn has been letting down a bit as of late.

Almost all rankings at the moment have MPS rated higher than Kadri on their lists, so you would assume that makes him more valuable in trade, although I'd say it is probably very close.

Kaberle is on the last year of his deal and is no way equal in value to MPS.
The proposed deal has all three of them for MPS and Souray. And on top of that, it was rejected because MPS is going nowhere.

So Kadri, Kaberle, Schenn vs MPS.

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08-21-2010, 05:57 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
The proposed deal has all three of them for MPS and Souray. And on top of that, it was rejected because MPS is going nowhere.

So Kadri, Kaberle, Schenn vs MPS.
Kardi, Kaberle and Schenn for MPS and we get to get rid of Souray on top of that?

Yes, it would have to be the most bias fan on the boards to act as though the Oilers wouldn't jump all over that trade and turn off their phones so the league couldn't call to cancel.

I explained what I thought of the players in 1 on 1 comparisons, but as a package? With Souray? It's not even remotely close to being fair for the Leafs.

We are in agreement on that much.

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08-21-2010, 06:02 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Who do we play at centre? John Mitchell? This isn't the time of the year to blow a huge hole in your lineup for more upside.
you wouldn't trade bozak for MPS? my mind just aaaasploded!!!

it doesn't matter if that leaves a hole at centre. dig up eric lindros or something!

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08-21-2010, 06:37 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RStar View Post
Kardi, Kaberle and Schenn for MPS and we get to get rid of Souray on top of that?

Yes, it would have to be the most bias fan on the boards to act as though the Oilers wouldn't jump all over that trade and turn off their phones so the league couldn't call to cancel.

I explained what I thought of the players in 1 on 1 comparisons, but as a package? With Souray? It's not even remotely close to being fair for the Leafs.

We are in agreement on that much.
Thats all I meant haha.

Individually, its debateable. Any teams top prospect for another player is open for interperation. And your opinion on that, I respect.

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08-21-2010, 09:07 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by RStar View Post
Schenn I'd say is probably are equal in trade value, although MPS is a shiny new prospect and Schenn has been letting down a bit as of late.

Almost all rankings at the moment have MPS rated higher than Kadri on their lists, so you would assume that makes him more valuable in trade, although I'd say it is probably very close.

Kaberle is on the last year of his deal and is no way equal in value to MPS.
I wouldn't trade MPS for Schenn right now. And this is while being fully aware that MPS has done nothing in the NHL at this stage, and that 5 years from now Schenn may well be the better player.

The issue for me is that Schenn projects as a rugged stay-at home-defenseman who is very unlikely to produce much offensively. While teams need such players they are generally much easier to come by, and can be had much more cheaply than almost any other type of skater.

While the jury is still out on MPS he is highly skilled and he does have the potential to be an impact player. For a team like the Oilers it is best to hang on to a guy like this.

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08-21-2010, 09:13 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I wouldn't trade MPS for Schenn right now. And this is while being fully aware that MPS has done nothing in the NHL at this stage, and that 5 years from now Schenn may well be the better player.

The issue for me is that Schenn projects as a rugged stay-at home-defenseman who is very unlikely to produce much offensively. While teams need such players they are generally much easier to come by, and can be had much more cheaply than almost any other type of skater.

While the jury is still out on MPS he is highly skilled and he does have the potential to be an impact player. For a team like the Oilers it is best to hang on to a guy like this.
Would it be fair to say that he'll turn into a Jason Smith?

I LOVED the hell out of Jason Smith, but at no point in his career was he ever worth something like MPS, who has yet to play a game in the NHL.

A few of my crazy leaf-fan friends claim that Schenn has put on a lot of muscle over the off-season and that he's about 230 pounds now. That'll surely make him a very scary threat. Assuming he doesn't get hurt like Volchenkov does... he'll be a big scary threat every time he's on the ice, but that doesn't put points up on the board.

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08-21-2010, 09:25 PM
  #163
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Would it be fair to say that he'll turn into a Jason Smith?

I LOVED the hell out of Jason Smith, but at no point in his career was he ever worth something like MPS, who has yet to play a game in the NHL.

A few of my crazy leaf-fan friends claim that Schenn has put on a lot of muscle over the off-season and that he's about 230 pounds now. That'll surely make him a very scary threat. Assuming he doesn't get hurt like Volchenkov does... he'll be a big scary threat every time he's on the ice, but that doesn't put points up on the board.
Smith had a pretty decent NHL career. I don't know if Schenn has his leadership qualities, though Schenn likely will be more of a physical force. Overall though, I would agree with your point.


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08-22-2010, 01:42 AM
  #164
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I must be on hfboards. Only here does a prospect have greater vaule than an entire franchise.

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08-22-2010, 02:40 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Smith had a pretty decent NHL career. I don't know if Schenn has his leadership qualities, though Schenn likely will be more of a physical force. Overall, though I would agree with your point.
Schenn hopes to have as good of a career as Smitty.

Shutdown D-man who are drafted should look over at his career, what a player he was.

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08-22-2010, 07:10 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I wouldn't trade MPS for Schenn right now. And this is while being fully aware that MPS has done nothing in the NHL at this stage, and that 5 years from now Schenn may well be the better player.

The issue for me is that Schenn projects as a rugged stay-at home-defenseman who is very unlikely to produce much offensively. While teams need such players they are generally much easier to come by, and can be had much more cheaply than almost any other type of skater.

While the jury is still out on MPS he is highly skilled and he does have the potential to be an impact player. For a team like the Oilers it is best to hang on to a guy like this.
While I agree that MPS is slated to be the more valuable player, a stay at home defenseman who still has some pretty high potential is something the Oilers don't have. And decent stay at home D-men seem to get fewer every year so its definitely a trade I'd consider.
Whether I'd pull the trigger I'm not sure, but it's something I'd have to think long and hard about. If the Oilers didn't have Hall, Eberle and even Omark I obviously would change my stance on the whole idea though.

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08-22-2010, 08:59 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
What are you talking about? Burke coughed up the 2nd overall pick at the 2010 entry draft and there are a lot of people that think he's also given Boston a top 5 draft pick at the next draft.

For what? A damn good winger. Not even a superstar.
Answer me this - how old is Kessel? We're talking about a guy who's at least 3-4 years away from hitting his prime. Hardly a veteran. This should go without saying, but when Burke dealt those picks, they weren't lottery picks.

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you wouldn't trade bozak for MPS? my mind just aaaasploded!!!

it doesn't matter if that leaves a hole at centre. dig up eric lindros or something!
It absolutely matters if there's a hole at centre. Considering how weak we are at that position, we'd suddenly be relying on Kadri or Grabovski to be our number one centre, neither of which being a good option right now. And if one of them sucks, Johnny Malkin is next on the depth chart. That gives me nightmares, and it should do the same for anybody who wants to see the Leafs even have a shot at challenging for a playoff spot next year.

And anyways, how much potential do you really think MSP has? I see him as developing into a 30 goal, Milan Michalek type player, maybe a bit higher at his peak. He's got the wheels, and he's got enough grit to score some goals by driving to the net. But is that the sort of potential that warrants punching a huge hole in your roster for a slight increase in offensive potential?


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08-22-2010, 09:59 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Smith had a pretty decent NHL career. I don't know if Schenn has his leadership qualities, though Schenn likely will be more of a physical force. Overall though, I would agree with your point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but before he was drafted I think they were hyping "The Human Eraser" up as a great leader as well... but I might be thinking of someone else.

Loved seeing Gator lay the smack down. He was a great checker when I played the body.

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08-22-2010, 10:07 AM
  #169
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Answer me this - how old is Kessel? We're talking about a guy who's at least 3-4 years away from hitting his prime. Hardly a veteran. This should go without saying, but when Burke dealt those picks, they weren't lottery picks.
Are you suggesting that Kessel will be worth more than Sequin without his illness history?

Are you suggesting that you didn't think Toronto was going to be THAT BAD when Burke dealt those picks?

Are you suggesting that you thought Toronto another qualified 1st line forward past Kessel before last season started?

Because I think the notion of such nonsense is nothing but malarkey.

They arguably didn't even have a second line center before the beginning of last season, but a few guys managed to get by playing the position by trial and error as the horrid season went on.

In all honestly, Toronto should have come in last place. Look at all the games lost to injury Edmonton had going on.

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08-22-2010, 10:16 AM
  #170
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Are you suggesting that Kessel will be worth more than Sequin without his illness history?

Are you suggesting that you didn't think Toronto was going to be THAT BAD when Burke dealt those picks?

Are you suggesting that you thought Toronto another qualified 1st line forward past Kessel before last season started?

Because I think the notion of such nonsense is nothing but malarkey.
I think those questions are malarkey. I have no idea what you're asking in the last one, and yes, it's entirely possible that Kessel will be better than Seguin. Obviously, I have no way of knowing how things will turn out, and neither do you. That wasn't the point I was making, just an obvious statement about prospects.

The second question is absolutely what I was saying. Most predictions had the Leafs competing for a playoff spot. I thought they'd finish around tenth. Most of the prediction websites and magazines had them around that spot. Even Chiarelli said that he didn't expect the pick to be even close to that high. Obviously, that's why you play the games on ice, not paper, but pretending that everybody knew it would be a lottery pick is absolutely ridiculous.

Quote:
They arguably didn't even have a second line center before the beginning of last season, but a few guys managed to get by playing the position by trial and error as the horrid season went on.

In all honestly, Toronto should have come in last place. Look at all the games lost to injury Edmonton had going on.
Toskala was the much bigger problem for Toronto - nobody expected him to have that terrible a season. In retrospect, failing to get a capable veteran in the system through free agency instead of Toskala was a huge mistake.

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08-22-2010, 10:25 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Canuck14 View Post
I must be on hfboards. Only here does a prospect have greater vaule than an entire franchise.


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Originally Posted by nitz View Post
you wouldn't trade bozak for MPS? my mind just aaaasploded!!!

it doesn't matter if that leaves a hole at centre. dig up eric lindros or something!
that's also a dumb trade for both teams. why should either team consider such a move?

question mark for question mark. prospect for prospect.

this is nor a question of value or whether MPS has a higher upside than bozak or vice versa - that's debatable for sure. of course MPS is hyped more and was drafted higher but there's a risk he won't adjust well to the NA, won't develop into the player he is PROJECTED to be - no? see any other draft, any year and you'll see it.

in bozak, you also have a guy who has potential. maybe not the projected upside MPS has but so what. He's playing in the NHL and improving - that's something. bozak's further along in his development and is far more likely to help the leafs over the next couple of years than MPS will.

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08-22-2010, 10:27 AM
  #172
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While I agree that MPS is slated to be the more valuable player, a stay at home defenseman who still has some pretty high potential is something the Oilers don't have. And decent stay at home D-men seem to get fewer every year so its definitely a trade I'd consider.
Whether I'd pull the trigger I'm not sure, but it's something I'd have to think long and hard about. If the Oilers didn't have Hall, Eberle and even Omark I obviously would change my stance on the whole idea though.
None of Eberle, Hall or Omark has done anything in the NHL. Prospects are exactly that. Keeping MPS increases the odds that the Oilers get at least one, and hopefully two or three true impact players. If they all turn out, geat. You can always make a deal later to fill another need.

There are lots of decent stay at home defenders each year. In a capped world they tend to get the short end of the stick. Elite ones may be rarer, but even they can still be had at a reasonable price. Volchenkov signed as a UFA for 6 years at $4.25M. He pretty much sets the standard in the category Schenn likely will play in.

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08-22-2010, 10:36 AM
  #173
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Yeah it's 900k off of Souray's who has negative value despite being a superior player.
A full 82 games of 100% Health

Souray > Kaberle


However, Souray's health issues over the past few years and Kaberle's point production makes it as follows:

Kaberle >>> Souray.


No doubt Souray is a better player, but his healty issue, demanding a trade and his 2 years left on his contract make him much less valuable than Kaberle.

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08-22-2010, 10:37 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Canuck14 View Post
I must be on hfboards. Only here does a prospect have greater vaule than an entire franchise.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

No where else in the world do fans overrate prospects and picks like they do around here.

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