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08-22-2010, 01:01 PM
  #1
wholesickcrew
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Washington - Nashville - Vancouver

Hello Preds fans! I didn't see an armchair GM or off-season thread, so figured I would start a new one -- if this is a mistake, please forgive me.

There's been a fair amount of talk about a Fleischmann-Bieksa swap, and while both teams' fans seem to think it's fair value, Canucks fans aren't sure Fleischmann is what we need. This is due in part to cap space and in part to holes in our bottom six. However, I think there may be a way to make this work, namely via the always-elusive (how do you please three fan bases?) three-way trade.

To Washington: Kevin Bieksa
To Nashville: Tomas Fleischmann
To Vancouver: Joel Ward, Jerred Smithson

You get an instant boost to your offense in Fleischmann without taking on too much salary (a net gain of less than 400k). Jerred Smithson is, as I understand it, more expendable with the emergence of Spaling, while Joel Ward may be on his last year as well with other prospects working their way up.

Now, I'll admit I don't know Ward that well, or how highly you value him. I imagine it would be great to see him come out and perform the way he did (practically out of nowhere), but I figure giving him up could be worth Fleischmann.

One concern I could see you having is that Fleischmann is only signed for one year. Of course, both Ward and Smithson are up this coming year as well, so you could hopefully use some of the money that would go toward their raises toward that of Fleischmann's.

In the end, is there fair value here? Would you take Fleischmann at the cost of Ward and Smithson?

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08-22-2010, 01:31 PM
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Value is fair, I'd probably do this deal.

One problem for us though, Smithson and Ward eat up tons of PK time. So we'd have to do some retooling in that department. Plus our bottom six is already pretty inexperienced as it is. Not sure Spaling is ready for full time NHL duty yet.

Would Washington really do this though? I thought they were high on Fleischmann

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08-22-2010, 01:33 PM
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CantbeatzPekka
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i would do this, we'd just have to have a little weaker bottom six and go with our youth. really good value though especially comparing it to that ott-nas-bos three way deal......that was a sick joke

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08-22-2010, 01:37 PM
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Id for sure do this, Ward and Smityy are gone anyways after this year, but what would we do with our PK?

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08-22-2010, 01:47 PM
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I'd do it in a heartbeat. We have enough bottom six guys in the system that can play PK...Spaling, Halischuk, Thuresson, etc...and in addition, Lombardi, Jonas Andersson and Kostitsyn can all play the PK as well.

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08-22-2010, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I'd do it in a heartbeat. We have enough bottom six guys in the system that can play PK...Spaling, Halischuk, Thuresson, etc...and in addition, Lombardi, Jonas Andersson and Kostitsyn can all play the PK as well.
Worst PK is the league? We made the playoffs last season with the 3rd worst so why not?

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08-22-2010, 02:02 PM
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yah we take this and run... least i would

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08-22-2010, 03:20 PM
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wholesickcrew
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Yeah, I figured you guys would take it. After all, you probably get the best player in the deal. Caps fans are down on him after his playoff performance, while management seems to see him as redundant. Canucks fans on the other hand aren't too sad to see Bieksa go, and this would fill a couple holes for us. I think the only objection comes from Nucks fans who think we can't fit Ward under the cap.

I'm thinking about putting this on the main board. Could it be the one of the only three-way deals accepted by all fans?

Note: I don't think Gillis would actually do this since it seems he's looking for more. The deal would have to be sweetened with a draft pick or prospect, which could potentially come from both Washington and Nashville, oddly enough (since the Caps seem to be shopping Flash pretty hard). But I would be happy with the deal even without further additions. Thanks for your feedback!

Edit: Can you guys give me additional information on Ward? My understanding is that he's fast, hard-working, and defensively responsible. Not great hands, but not horrible. Big body, though not necessarily very physical. Does this sound about right? Where do most of his points come from -- crashing the net?


Last edited by wholesickcrew: 08-22-2010 at 03:30 PM.
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08-22-2010, 05:33 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by wholesickcrew View Post
Yeah, I figured you guys would take it. After all, you probably get the best player in the deal. Caps fans are down on him after his playoff performance, while management seems to see him as redundant. Canucks fans on the other hand aren't too sad to see Bieksa go, and this would fill a couple holes for us. I think the only objection comes from Nucks fans who think we can't fit Ward under the cap.

I'm thinking about putting this on the main board. Could it be the one of the only three-way deals accepted by all fans?

Note: I don't think Gillis would actually do this since it seems he's looking for more. The deal would have to be sweetened with a draft pick or prospect, which could potentially come from both Washington and Nashville, oddly enough (since the Caps seem to be shopping Flash pretty hard). But I would be happy with the deal even without further additions. Thanks for your feedback!

Edit: Can you guys give me additional information on Ward? My understanding is that he's fast, hard-working, and defensively responsible. Not great hands, but not horrible. Big body, though not necessarily very physical. Does this sound about right? Where do most of his points come from -- crashing the net?
You got Ward mostly right, but I think he might be a little slower than you think. He does have a big body and creates problems for defensemen in thier zone trying to get around him.

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08-22-2010, 09:29 PM
  #10
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No doubts from me. I wish Poile would do some deals like this. As i said in the Lineup projection thread, we could field 6 forward lines a night. We need to trade some assets for upgraded offensive. I'm doing this with no regrets

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08-22-2010, 11:53 PM
  #11
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As a fan of both Vancouver and Nashville, I'd do this deal for the reasons you laid out. We're going to get rid of Bieksa one way or the other, and where we could really spruce things up is with our bottom six, and Smithson and Ward definitely do that.

For Nashville, I think it's less a slam dunk, Ward and Smithson are serviceable players that I wouldn't be in a hurry to get rid of, maybe one of them, but not both. That said, for Fleishman, yeah, a guy like him is harder to replace than Ward and Smithson. Even if Spaling isn't ready to step up, it'd be easier to find guys for those roles through waivers or free agency than you could replace Fleishman.

Can't say I know much about Washington's situation to comment accurately, but if the scuttlebutt of their shopping of Fleishman is true, then mehp, Bieksa has some offensive skill, can play tough when he wants, is not hugely expensive and is in his contract year.

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08-23-2010, 07:58 AM
  #12
PredsV82
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i asked this on the trade board and got no reply so i'll try it here. can anyone tell me the last three team trade that happened that involved substantial players and that all three teams knew about going into the deal? (ie i dont consider the preds deal where we flipped belanger for vasichek a three way deal because presumably they were negotiated seperately)

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08-23-2010, 08:26 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
i asked this on the trade board and got no reply so i'll try it here. can anyone tell me the last three team trade that happened that involved substantial players and that all three teams knew about going into the deal? (ie i dont consider the preds deal where we flipped belanger for vasichek a three way deal because presumably they were negotiated seperately)
July 9, 2006.

To Chicago:
Martin Havlat
Bryan Smolinski

To San Jose:
Mark Bell

To Ottawa:
Tom Preissing
Josh Hennessy

It doesn't seem like much now, probably, but it was a pretty substantial deal at the time.



As for the OP, that's great value, but I'm not sure I wouldn't rather just cut Washington out of the whole deal and just get Bieksa. We need a guy who can log big minutes and produce some extra offense, and it's starting to look like Franson could become a hold-out.


Last edited by worstfaceoffmanever: 08-23-2010 at 08:32 AM.
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08-23-2010, 10:14 AM
  #14
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Interesting value and with Thuresson and Spaling in Milwaukee the Preds could afford to lose Ward and Smithson. With Flash, the Preds would legitimately have 3 scoring lines and it would give O'Reilly and Spaling a chance to get a roster spot. Another wild card with this is Andersson. He has the same body type as Smithson so the question would become, could he replicate Jerred's defensive play? If not, he goes back to Europe and Thuresson get's the spot. O'Reilly is still SOL unless one of the top 9 forwards gets hurt.

Money wise, it's about a gain of 1,000,000. If the ownership can take that hit it's a good deal. Does it eat away at Nashville's forward depth? Yup, but the fact is this Ward and Smithson were dead men walking anyway with the forward depth in Milwaukee. You just moved the timetable for the prospects up a year.

As for what it would look like....


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08-23-2010, 10:26 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Interesting value and with Thuresson and Spaling in Milwaukee the Preds could afford to lose Ward and Smithson. With Flash, the Preds would legitimately have 3 scoring lines and it would give O'Reilly and Spaling a chance to get a roster spot. Another wild card with this is Andersson. He has the same body type as Smithson so the question would become, could he replicate Jerred's defensive play? If not, he goes back to Europe and Thuresson get's the spot. O'Reilly is still SOL unless one of the top 9 forwards gets hurt.

Money wise, it's about a gain of 1,000,000. If the ownership can take that hit it's a good deal. Does it eat away at Nashville's forward depth? Yup, but the fact is this Ward and Smithson were dead men walking anyway with the forward depth in Milwaukee. You just moved the timetable for the prospects up a year.

As for what it would look like....

from your chart ... we'd certainly have to get rid of Tootoo ... 1.25 sitting on the sideline doesn't sit well with me or this organization

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08-23-2010, 10:33 AM
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BFC, that's a pretty nice line-up, though I also agree with Dave that someone (Tootoo possibly because of his price) would need to go.

WFM, I wouldn't disagree with you, but I'd just as soon as (from Nashville's point of view) do this three-way and get Fleischmann and then on a separate move get a more reliable defenseman, I'd suggest you try really hard for Mitchell if he becomes healthy. Bieksa's the designated Vancouver whipping-boy so I think fans here underestimate his value, but that said, I also don't think he's the best value for Nashville. If Washington won't play in this, sure, take Bieksa directly, but IMO you want Fleischmann more, and can get defensive help somewhere else, as we get closer to the season and the UFA's get more desperate, you can get some bargains, and as teams with cap problems start running out of time to unload players, again, Poile can work some magic.

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08-23-2010, 10:34 AM
  #17
wholesickcrew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
i asked this on the trade board and got no reply so i'll try it here. can anyone tell me the last three team trade that happened that involved substantial players and that all three teams knew about going into the deal? (ie i dont consider the preds deal where we flipped belanger for vasichek a three way deal because presumably they were negotiated seperately)
This technically isn't a three-way, or at least isn't necessarily one. We acquire Flash then flip him to you. It would be similar in a way to this "4-team trade" from March 2009:

To Edmonton: Patrick O'Sullivan and Ales Kotalik
To Carolina: Erik Cole, second-round pick
To Los Angeles: Justin Williams
To Buffalo: second-round pick

I remember how confused everyone was when that deal went down. People knew who was going where, but they didn't know how it happened. The similarities to this trade would exist until that weird turn that got Buffalo involved.

Quote:
It seems the deal originally started with Carolina picking up O'Sullivan for Williams, which ultimately led to the Hurricanes flipping O'Sullivan for Cole. And that's when things took a turn...

Buffalo traded forward Ales Kotalik to Carolina for a second-round pick. The Hurricanes then traded Kotalik to Edmonton for a second-round pick. In the end, the Oilers get both Kotalik and Patrick O'Sullivan today.

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08-23-2010, 11:07 AM
  #18
wholesickcrew
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It's up on the main board now, so we'll see what a broader audience thinks of it. Thanks again for your feedback.

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08-23-2010, 11:11 AM
  #19
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from your chart ... we'd certainly have to get rid of Tootoo ... 1.25 sitting on the sideline doesn't sit well with me or this organization
I'm not sure about that. If you analyze the dollars too much you get paralysis from analysis. With that line up, Nashville will need more and more 4th liners. There would be a lot of depth with the top 9. Bottom 3 would need players, Lundmark would be more of a top 9 then a bottom 3. Thuresson would be the first call up if there is an injury on the bottom 3. Lundmark (Center) and Halischuk (Wing) you would thing would be the call ups for the top 9. If the price tab is a little too high, yes moving Tootoo would be the smart move and save the team about a $500,000 with the replacement or go with 22 players and get the full 1,2 million. What could be interesting thing would be to move Tootoo for a vet player on the back end.

Too bad this is just dreams and fantasy.

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08-23-2010, 12:49 PM
  #20
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I'm not sure about that. If you analyze the dollars too much you get paralysis from analysis. With that line up, Nashville will need more and more 4th liners. There would be a lot of depth with the top 9. Bottom 3 would need players, Lundmark would be more of a top 9 then a bottom 3. Thuresson would be the first call up if there is an injury on the bottom 3. Lundmark (Center) and Halischuk (Wing) you would thing would be the call ups for the top 9. If the price tab is a little too high, yes moving Tootoo would be the smart move and save the team about a $500,000 with the replacement or go with 22 players and get the full 1,2 million. What could be interesting thing would be to move Tootoo for a vet player on the back end.

Too bad this is just dreams and fantasy.
From a marketing perspective, it may just be worth it to keep Tootoo.

And with the loss of Ward and Smithson, and the increasing risk of counting on as-yet unproven youngsters, holding on to proven depth is not a bad idea.

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08-23-2010, 12:52 PM
  #21
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From a marketing perspective, it may just be worth it to keep Tootoo.

And with the loss of Ward and Smithson, and the increasing risk of counting on as-yet unproven youngsters, holding on to proven depth is not a bad idea.
Kostitstyn have been added to help with the PK. Spaling is a capable 4th liner. Andersson and Thuresson would be the unknowns. Tootoo is a pest and only plays ES minutes.

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