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Orr v. Gretzky (Part 2)

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Old
08-23-2010, 05:22 PM
  #26
ushvinder
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The thing about Orr is that he has 8 norris trophies. Most players with great offensive peaks were simply one dimensional players. 8 Norris trophies, 2 Conn Symthes, 2 Art Rosses and 3 Harts in a 9 year career is amazing.

Bobby Orr can't be quantified!

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08-23-2010, 07:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That enough for ya?
The "Trap" is only a bad word because of the uber conservative way it was employed in conjunction with the ridiculous hooking and holding in the dead puck era.
The "trap" in it's purest form is nothing more than a system designed to generate turn overs in the neutral zone and provide instant counter attack opportunities.


Anyway...back to Orr.
Is it really that hard to believe that Orr changed the way the role of the Dman was viewed around the world?
Is it then that hard to believe that Orr's opening up of the game provided the building blocks for the offensive play that was so dominant in the 80's?
Am I really making a stretch here.....doubtful.

I mean hell, people smarter and more knowledgeable on hockey than you or I credit Orr with revolutionizing and opening up the game as it is today....I'm certainly not going to argue with them

First of all you said the Canadiens played the trap. Which is untrue as you have stated they would clog up the neutral zone when holding a lead. Alot of teams have done this in the past and present when holding a lead. When you say a team plays the trap it means clogging up the neutral zone (a term I hate because it is center ice) They do this for almost the whol egame unless trailing. Montreal did not do this the whole game and primarily did it in the 3rd period.

Your definition of a trap is correct however in the purest form of the trap means that a team would play like this as their primary system and no team truly played the trap like they did in the "Dead Puck era" I can not agree with you the the MOntreal Canadiens played the trap the way it was later designed and perfect by New Jersey Devils. I am sorry I think it takes away from the talented team they had and tries to label them as a team like the Devils

Do you ever really read a post. I mean when did I ever say that Orr did not influence the way the defence was played. Never have I said that, I have never said anything against how Orr changed the position.

Is it hard to think that Bobby Orr helped change hockey? Of course not he did. However you think of him as a God. You make it seem that everything he did means that anyone else that came along or any system was becasue of him.

Did Orr help open up the game? Yes of course he did I never said he didn't just that European teams and players who helped revolutionize hockey also have some credit in that change. You seem to only give Orr credit and just him alone, which is not accurate at all. Once again in case you missed it. Bobby Orr CHANGED how defenceman were seen and how the position was played later on. Bobby Orr opened up the game and made a new system that involves a rushing defenceman to take control of the offence. He just did not do it all and their are other influences out there. He might be the most prolific player to change the NHL and maybe changed it more then anyone else but to say that no other player before or after Bobby Orr has anything to do with the change of hockey is pure B.S

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08-23-2010, 07:51 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
There are some factual errors in this post, as well as some rather suspect conclusions.

Factual Errors:

Reg Fleming and Ed Westfall were wingers, not defensemen. Ed Westfall began as a Dman, but moved up front. He occasionally played D if needed, but he was a fixture at RW on the Bruins checking line and top PK unit with Derek Sanderson. This changes your numbers substantially. For instance, the runner up to Orr for goals in 70-71 was Guy Lapointe, with 15 (as compared to Westfall with 25). And J.C. Tremblay was the runner up in assists, with 52 (followed by Stapleton with 51), both of whom had more than Westfall's 34. You should re-do those total numbers, as they are misleading.

Suspect conclusions:

Why do you have such a dim view of Orr's contemporaries on defense? Potvin, Park, Savard, Lapointe, Salming, Robinson, Tremblay, Horton... these guys were great, great players.

And lets not forget that Orr consistently outscored an amazing collection of all-time great forwards such as Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Marcel Dionne, Guy Lafleur, Bobby Clarke, Gilbert Perreault, Frank Mahovlich, Jean Ratelle and Johnny Bucyk.
Oh yeah... he did this even though he was a defenseman!

None of the above outscored Orr during his peak. Look at the scoring leaders from '70-75:

69-70: Orr 120, Esposito 99
70-71: Esposito 152, Orr 139
71-72: Esposito 133, Orr 117
72-73: Esposito 130, Clarke 104, Orr 101 (when Orr missed 15 games due to knee surgery)
73-74: Esposito 145, Orr 122
74-75: Orr 135, Esposito 127

The only player who ever actually outscored Orr was his teammate, Phil Esposito. And it was Orr, not Espo, who was the architect of the Bruins offense. As Jean Beliveau said:
"When the Bruins faced off in our zone, it didn't matter who they had up front - Esposito, Hodge, Cashman, Bucyk or McKenzie. How we lined up was dictated by one factor, the position of Bobby Orr. When the puck was dropped, everyone's attention was divided, with nervous glances in Orr's direction predominating."
-from Blades on Ice; pg 124-125

Beliveau's observation is confirmed when we look at the dramatic drop-off in Espo's point-per-game production after he got traded to the Rangers, and away from Orr:
72-73: 78 games, 55G, 75A, 130Pts for 1.67 points/game
73-74: 78 games, 68G, 77A, 145Pts for 1.86 points/game
74-75: 79 games, 61G, 66A, 127Pts for 1.61 points/game
-traded to the Rangers-
75-76: 62 games, 29G, 38A, 67Pts for 1.08 points/game
76-77: 80 games, 34G, 46A, 80Pts for 1.00 points/game

Everybody knows about Gretzky's scoring exploits. He was out of this world.

But Orr's numbers from the blueline are, in their own way, every bit as astonishing as Gretzky's. He left his fellow blueliners so far behind it's laughable. Not only that, he outscored all those HOF forwards too - except Espo, who was reduced to a mere mortal without him. And Orr put up all those incredible, record-obliterating numbers without abandoning his defensive responsiblities.
First of all I used hockey reference for the list and their are many errors. Becasue Westfall did once play defence and was their as I am not sure exactly when he changed to a winger. I wanted to keep him in there so that anyone who might later on say he played defence could not complain about the list. I never said this was an acurate list but as close as I could get because of the mistakes in hockey reference website.

As far as the list I used it was to show that Gretzky was just as dominant agaisnt centers as Bobby Orr was against defenceman if not more

All the defenceman you listed are great great and the best of the best of ever to play hoever one thing though. Horton was not a offensive defenceman. Savard and Robinson were as close to complete defenceman to a degree as Orr, Potvin was young and up and coming, Only Brad Park is talked about in the same breath of Orr during the years Orr was playing because offensively he was the closest for most of the years in Orr's prime, if you could say that. THe other ones you mentioned alot of people who were not born might not know these players and how good they were.

I did not want to get into scoring vs forwards it was a comparison against his own position. To try and show that Orr as great as he was had no one to compete agaisnt in his position really. Where Gretzky was beating the best of the best offensive players ever at his position That is why I also never included wingers against Gretzky because there are some great wingers Gretzky dominated also

Orr did outscore forwards and hall of fame forwards their is no debate about that but let's be honest here except for Orr and a few wingers in the history of the NHL the players who get the most points are Centers. Gretzky did not just beat them and get more points he dominated every one fo them. All HHOF ones. Like I said this is not an argument to prove Gretzky is the best ever. I never once said who was the best of the two. I am just trying in my way of showing that it is alot closer then some on here have said. If Orr is better or if Gretaky is better it is not by much. It is just that alot of posters on here have said Orr Dominated offensively like no other player ever, which is not true. I mean Paul Coffey scored more points then some forwards too. In the playoffs some defenceman have scored more points then forwards.

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08-23-2010, 08:02 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
I did not want to get into scoring vs forwards it was a comparison against his own position. To try and show that Orr as great as he was had no one to compete agaisnt in his position really. Where Gretzky was beating the best of the best offensive players ever at his position That is why I also never included wingers against Gretzky because there are some great wingers Gretzky dominated also

Orr did outscore forwards and hall of fame forwards their is no debate about that but let's be honest here except for Orr and a few wingers in the history of the NHL the players who get the most points are Centers. Gretzky did not just beat them and get more points he dominated every one fo them. All HHOF ones. Like I said this is not an argument to prove Gretzky is the best ever. I never once said who was the best of the two. I am just trying in my way of showing that it is alot closer then some on here have said. If Orr is better or if Gretaky is better it is not by much. It is just that alot of posters on here have said Orr Dominated offensively like no other player ever, which is not true. I mean Paul Coffey scored more points then some forwards too. In the playoffs some defenceman have scored more points then forwards.
I posted this on another thread, but it bears repeating, at least when considering domination of positional peers. Orr's numbers are staggering -- very often his offense is compared with other centers (though he can hold his own there), but the more natural comparison would be to analyze his dominance when comparing him to his positional peers.

When looking at the top percentage leaders over their positional peers (using adjusted stats) from the center position, Gretzky holds 2 of the top four spots, but Esposito holds the top spot overall:

1) Esposito Phil 1970-71 147 pts 79.27%
Ullman Norm 1970-71 82 pts

2) Gretzky Wayne 1983-84 164 pts 72.63%
Stastny Peter 1983-84 95 pts

3) Gretzky Wayne 1986-87 157 pts 70.65%
Lemieux Mario 1986-87 92 pts

4) Esposito Phil 1973-74 135 pts 66.67%
Clarke Bobby 1973-74 81 pts

Bobby Orr holds the top four spots for top percentage leaders over his positional peers (using adjusted stats) from the defence position, and at a much higher % than any other positional peer comparison :

1) Orr Bobby 1969-70 124 pts 175.56%
Mckenny Jim 1969-70 45 pts

2) Orr Bobby 1970-71 136 pts 122.95%
Trembley J.C. 1970-71 61 pts

3) Orr Bobby 1972-73 92 pts 87.76%
Lapointe Guy 1972-73 49 pts

4) Orr Bobby 1974-75 116 pts 81.25%
Lapointe Guy 1974-75 64 pts

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Old
08-23-2010, 08:38 PM
  #30
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
First of all you said the Canadiens played the trap. Which is untrue as you have stated they would clog up the neutral zone when holding a lead. Alot of teams have done this in the past and present when holding a lead. When you say a team plays the trap it means clogging up the neutral zone (a term I hate because it is center ice) They do this for almost the whol egame unless trailing. Montreal did not do this the whole game and primarily did it in the 3rd period.
May wanna pick up Dryden's book "The Game" where he talks about how Bowman enforced a strict defensive scheme (trap) from the center ice line back but allowed total offensive freedom on the other side of the line until they had a lead in the third period, when he would then, reel them in.

Quote:
Your definition of a trap is correct however in the purest form of the trap means that a team would play like this as their primary system and no team truly played the trap like they did in the "Dead Puck era" I can not agree with you the the MOntreal Canadiens played the trap the way it was later designed and perfect by New Jersey Devils. I am sorry I think it takes away from the talented team they had and tries to label them as a team like the Devils
I don't care what you think it takes away from or that you don't seem to know the difference between the various deployments and focuses that a "trap" system can operate under.
I mean if you didn't know any better, you would of thought that Lemaire played under Bowman at some point....oh wait...HE DID
Again...the "Trap" when played aggressively with skilled players is a turnover making, counter attacking offensive tool.
The "Trap" played conservatively with lesser skilled players is more like a wall, bouncing pucks back. Add in the clutch and grab and it turns into a wall with a mud pit around it.
The Trap did not produce the "dead puck era", the water skiing, holding and interference did. If it wasn't the Trap, it would of just been some other system played uber conservatively that would of gotten the bad rep.

Quote:
Do you ever really read a post. I mean when did I ever say that Orr did not influence the way the defence was played. Never have I said that, I have never said anything against how Orr changed the position.

Is it hard to think that Bobby Orr helped change hockey? Of course not he did. However you think of him as a God. You make it seem that everything he did means that anyone else that came along or any system was becasue of him.
Not every system...just the ones that involve Dmen playing active roles offensively....opps...I guess that would be all of them, my bad.

Quote:
Did Orr help open up the game? Yes of course he did I never said he didn't just that European teams and players who helped revolutionize hockey also have some credit in that change. You seem to only give Orr credit and just him alone, which is not accurate at all. Once again in case you missed it. Bobby Orr CHANGED how defenceman were seen and how the position was played later on. Bobby Orr opened up the game and made a new system that involves a rushing defenceman to take control of the offence. He just did not do it all and their are other influences out there. He might be the most prolific player to change the NHL and maybe changed it more then anyone else but to say that no other player before or after Bobby Orr has anything to do with the change of hockey is pure B.S
I never said Orr was the ONLY person that changed the game, I only said that he was the guy that ushered in the most change on his own.
Plante coming out of his net to play the puck, the give and go, European east/west puck and player movement all had their affect on the game.
To be quite honest, more of the changes in the game as we know them came from Europe first.
The "trap", "Leftwing lock", more flowing play and the idea that wingers shouldn't just be locked into going up and down their own wings all day long are just a few of the things that were more prevalent over seas before the NHL.
The Europeans have never been as stubborn or locked into their ways like the NHL has a history of being.
They are always trying new things and experimenting over there that quite frankly, no one in the NHL would have the balls to try here.

All that being said, no one changed the game around the globe like than Orr did and the reality is that the European's actually embraced Orr's example of activating their D before the NHL did.
They came up with systems and styles to fully incorporate an active D long before the NHL fully did, evidenced easily by advanced 5 man play of the Russians in the late 70's and early 80's.

So don't sit there and try and tell me that I am not giving other factors and influences their due credit, especially the European ones, because I most certainly do.
The only influences that have been questioned in this thread have been Bobby Orr's.

You tell me to take my Orr glasses off and that he isn't god.
Well...you're right, he isn't god but in the game of hockey, he's the closest thing you're going to get my friend.
Orr was the greatest package of skill, speed, toughness, talent and awareness the world has ever seen period.


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Old
08-23-2010, 09:06 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Orr did outscore forwards and hall of fame forwards their is no debate about that but let's be honest here except for Orr and a few wingers in the history of the NHL the players who get the most points are Centers. Gretzky did not just beat them and get more points he dominated every one fo them. All HHOF ones. Like I said this is not an argument to prove Gretzky is the best ever. I never once said who was the best of the two. I am just trying in my way of showing that it is alot closer then some on here have said. If Orr is better or if Gretaky is better it is not by much. It is just that alot of posters on here have said Orr Dominated offensively like no other player ever, which is not true. I mean Paul Coffey scored more points then some forwards too. In the playoffs some defenceman have scored more points then forwards.

See this is what a lot of the Gretzky supporters get hung up on.
Orr dominated his peers offensively and only Gretzky imo dominated his peers more. Yes, that's right, I give the offensive edge to Wayne and have throughout both parts of this thread btw.
Here's the thing though, Orr also dominated the defensive side of the game.
There's not a single player in the history of the game that matches Orr offensively that could also match his defense.
Just like there's not a single player in the history of the game that matches Orr defensively that could also match his offense.

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08-23-2010, 10:46 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
The comparison is good, and very close I'd say. Close when looking strictly at offensive domination. However, Orr's defensive edge more than made up for it though. If one can look strictly at offense, deem it to be this close but give the edge to Gretzky overall, then they're severely underrating Orr's defense IMO.
This is true, and is a very good point. However, Orr is only being compared to other D-men, most of whom didn't play offensively. Gretzky is being compared to other forwards, all of whom were good offensively.

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08-23-2010, 11:12 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
This is true, and is a very good point. However, Orr is only being compared to other D-men, most of whom didn't play offensively. Gretzky is being compared to other forwards, all of whom were good offensively.

A good point...however, go ahead and compare Orr offensively to all of the forwards that have played the game.
Only 9 players total have scored more in a season than Orr. Orr is also 4th all time in points per game behind only Gretzky, Mario and Bossy.

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08-23-2010, 11:35 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It's not like the Euro teams had rushing Dmen before Orr came along either.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That's the key here, it's not like there hadn't been rushing type dmen before
Which one of you I'm talking to right now?
Or did you mean the NHL in the latter case?

Anyway, Jan Suchy is the most famous example and certainly fits the despcription of a rushing/offensive dman who was still defensively reliable; in fact, you're the only person I've seen knocking his defensive play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Even in '72 the Russians didn't activate their D, yet by '76 it was sometimes hard to tell who played what with them. Watch the '72 Summit series DVD's if you don't believe me, the Russian D seemed to have this invisible line that they wouldn't cross.
Coincidence....I don't think so.
I don't know about '76, but certainly around the 1979 Challenge Cup things had changed a bit, as far as the position of a defenseman goes.

And hey, I'm not totally against the idea, but it would be interesting to see some quotes by Russians themselves where they acknowledge this. In any case, I believe that Orr influenced them indirectly rather than directly; it was North American style in general that was a big influence on the Soviet game (post 1972) and vice versa.


Last edited by VMBM: 08-24-2010 at 12:49 AM. Reason: grammar
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08-23-2010, 11:37 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
There are some factual errors in this post, as well as some rather suspect conclusions.

Factual Errors:

Reg Fleming and Ed Westfall were wingers, not defensemen. Ed Westfall began as a Dman, but moved up front. He occasionally played D if needed, but he was a fixture at RW on the Bruins checking line and top PK unit with Derek Sanderson. This changes your numbers substantially. For instance, the runner up to Orr for goals in 70-71 was Guy Lapointe, with 15 (as compared to Westfall with 25). And J.C. Tremblay was the runner up in assists, with 52 (followed by Stapleton with 51), both of whom had more than Westfall's 34. You should re-do those total numbers, as they are misleading.
Thank you for pointing this out before I could.

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08-24-2010, 12:15 AM
  #36
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Which one of you I'm talking right now?
Or did you mean the NHL in the latter case?
There are examples of more offensively orientated, rushing Dmen before Orr, I wouldn't debate that. The difference with them is like I already said, they were able to do one or the other, not both. A guy like Kelly for example, played forward half the time.
They didn't affect the game like Orr did and most importantly they weren't a factor in helping their teams win more.
In the end it doesn't matter how cool something is or how exciting it is, if you didn't win, no one was going to emulate it.

Quote:
Anyway, Jan Suchy is the most famous example and certainly fits the despcription of a rushing/offensive dman who was still defensively reliable; in fact, you're the only person I've seen knocking his defensive play.
I wouldn't say I was knocking his defensive play so much as knocking it compared to the level Orr played it.
I mean, lets face facts here, Suchy was tiny, like 5'7" if I remember right and there really was only so much he could do and getting over powered one on one was not unheard of with him.



Quote:
I don't know about '76, but certainly around the 1979 Challenge Cup things had changed a bit, as far as the position of a defenseman goes.
Well they had to groom them first. In '76 the Russians were definitely letting their D get involved more than in '72 but not until Fetisov arrived and made it possible to really put pen to paper so to speak.

Quote:
And hey, I'm not totally against the idea, but it would be interesting to see some quotes by Russians themselves where they acknowledge this. In any case, I believe that Orr influenced them indirectly rather than directly; it was North American style in general that was a big influence on the Soviet game (post 1972) and vice versa.
Oh, for sure, there were definitely things that both sides took from each other over the years. The biggest difference though, as I already noted earlier, is that the Europeans were much more ready and willing to adapt and experiment with incorporating North American aspects to their game than vice versa.
Call it stubbornness or call it a arrogance after winning in '72 and '76, either way, the NHL didn't feel the need to improve like the Europeans did.
Not to the degree the Euro's did anyway because it's not like the Russians in '72 didn't open more than a few eyes obviously or in some cases down right scared the crap out of people with their skating, co-ordination and conditioning.


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08-24-2010, 02:14 AM
  #37
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If Orr was the best then why did this panel select Gretzky as number one in 1998?

The judges involved in making the selections for this list included writers, journalists, and broadcasters (Don Cherry, John Davidson, Milt Dunnell, Stan Fischler, Dick Irvin, Brian McFarlane, Bob McKenzie, Jim Matheson, Harry Neale, Frank Orr), as well as coaches, referees, general managers, and former players (Al Arbour, Scotty Bowman, Emile Francis, Howie Meeker, Scotty Morrison, Roger Neilson, Bud Poile, Sam Pollock, Marcel Pronovost, Billy Reay, Glen Sather, Harry Sinden, Red Storey).

Can anyone explain why a panel loaded with such hockey expertise would choose Gretzky over Orr?

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08-24-2010, 02:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post

I don't care what you think it takes away from or that you don't seem to know the difference between the various deployments and focuses that a "trap" system can operate under.

II mean if you didn't know any better, you would of thought that Lemaire played under Bowman at some point....oh wait...HE DID

Again...the "Trap" when played aggressively with skilled players is a turnover making, counter attacking offensive tool.

The Trap did not produce the "dead puck era", the water skiing, holding and interference did. If it wasn't the Trap, it would of just been some other system played uber conservatively that would of gotten the bad rep.

Not every system...just the ones that involve Dmen playing active roles offensively....opps...I guess that would be all of them, my bad.

So don't sit there and try and tell me that I am not giving other factors and influences their due credit, especially the European ones, because I most certainly do.
The only influences that have been questioned in this thread have been Bobby Orr's.


You tell me to take my Orr glasses off and that he isn't god.
Well...you're right, he isn't god but in the game of hockey, he's the closest thing you're going to get my friend.
Orr was the greatest package of skill, speed, toughness, talent and awareness the world has ever seen period.

I know fully well how a "trap" system can operate under. The problem is that the trap was coined after the New Jersey Devils and believe me even you have to admit the Montreal Canadiens did not play like the Canadiens of the 70's.

What Lemaire did was take a style the Canadiens were playing when he was there under Bowman and turned into a system to slow down offensive teams and control the flow of the game and force teams to make mistakes.


Not all defensive systems are a "trap" like you defined it. Their are different styles to play defensively and even though the definiton you are using is the same as a high aggressive forcheck as well. I am not hear to argue the "trap" but if you feel that the Canadiens or the Islanders played a trap then so be it.

There are many things that caused the "deadpuck era" I never said it was the trap alone I was just saying that the true sense of the term of trap was used by the Devils in the "dead puck era"

Oh really so every single system that used a defenceman offensively. SO when Calgary was using Al MAcInnis's slap shot. Or when the Montreal Canadiens were putting Larry Robinson in front of the opposition's net to screen the goalie on the power play(which they did not do all the time but Bowman did do this from time to time as no one could move him) were all done because of Bobby Orr. No other defenceman or player had a powerful shot from the point until Orr right? Now any system that allowed a defenceman to take control of the play or jump into the play that is influenced primarily by Orr no question there.

I have never questioned Orr's influences. I have stated many times that he influenced hockey a lot. I was just trying to show that not everything was about Bobby Orr like you seemed to make it that way. Maybe it was becasue of what others said but it came across like it was Orr or nothing. My whole point about the European influence used by the Oilers was not all about what Orr did. That is all. I never said that Orr never influenced other defenceman or allowing defencemen to rush the puck. Only that not all systems utilize this because if you do not have a defenceman like him then it will not work that is all

He just might be but Gretzky's skill, vision, hockey sense and ability to do things no other ever did before or after, and most of all excellence for almost 20 years is another good package too


Last edited by Starchild74: 08-24-2010 at 02:37 AM. Reason: mistake
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08-24-2010, 02:52 AM
  #39
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See this is what a lot of the Gretzky supporters get hung up on.
Orr dominated his peers offensively and only Gretzky imo dominated his peers more. Yes, that's right, I give the offensive edge to Wayne and have throughout both parts of this thread btw.
Here's the thing though, Orr also dominated the defensive side of the game.
There's not a single player in the history of the game that matches Orr offensively that could also match his defense.
Just like there's not a single player in the history of the game that matches Orr defensively that could also match his offense.
You are totally right No defenceman that mathces or Offensively that can match his defense. There is no defenceman that matches or defensicely that could match him offensively. The problem is the same thing can be said for gretzky reason being that any Center that could match him offensively could not match him defensively. The reason is their isn't any player in the history of the NHL that comes close to Gretzky's pure offensive skill. Any Center that was as good as him defensively or even better then him could not match his offensive skill either.

The problem when comparing defenceman and Centers is that to a degree every defenceman has to be able to something decent defensively. However a Center can be just pure offence and be the best in the game just on offensive skill. Teams that have a Gretzky on their team do not need him to be defensive because his offense is that great.

If Bobby Orr was a 10 in offence then Gretzky is like 13. Bobby Orr is better then Gretzky defensively, a lot better but he was also a defenceman. Maybe Orr 8 Gretzky 4 Gretzky was better at faceoffs does that make him better? OF course not it is just that the responsibilities of a Center are different then for a defenceman that is why Orr being better defensively does not matter just like Gretzky being better then Orr offensively does not matter either. It is impossible to compare the two except agaisnt their own position and once agian even then it won't work because Orr was the first of his kind and Gretzky was the greatest ever at his postion.

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08-24-2010, 03:10 AM
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I know fully well how a "trap" system can operate under. The problem is that the trap was coined after the New Jersey Devils and believe me even you have to admit the Devils did not play like the Canadiens of the 70's.

What Lemaire did was take a style the Canadiens were playing when he was there under Bowman and turned into a system to slow down offensive teams and control the flow of the game and force teams to make mistakes.
Like I said....sigh.....you can employ the "trap" to create offense or stifle offense, it's all about how you use it and how you deploy it.
Bowman employed his to create offense from turnovers and gain puck possession in the neutral zone, attacking before the puck even cross center.
Lemaire backed it up and used it to stifle offense, reduce speed through the neutral zone but his trap would give you the redline before putting up his wall, forcing the other team to dump the puck in, giving up possession that way.
This really isn't rocket science man but if you need me to explain the left wing lock while I'm here, all you have to do is ask.

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There are many things that caused the "deadpuck era" I never said it was the trap alone I was just saying that the true sense of the term of trap was used by the Devils in the "dead puck era"
....and have I have before here and in other posts, "The Trap" is prolly the most over used and has the most unwarranted negatively attached to it than any other term in the history of hockey.

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Oh really so every single system that used a defenceman offensively. SO when Calgary was using Al MAcInnis's slap shot. Or when the Montreal Canadiens were putting Larry Robinson in front of the opposition's net to screen the goalie on the power play(which they did not do all the time but Bowman did do this from time to time as no one could move him) were all done because of Bobby Orr. No other defenceman or player had a powerful shot from the point until Orr right? Now any system that allowed a defenceman to take control of the play or jump into the play that is influenced primarily by Orr no question there.
Yes, every system in today's game accounts for the use of dmen in the offense.
Bringing up powerplay strategies serves no point what so ever in this conversation.

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I have never questioned Orr's influences. I have stated many times that he influenced hockey a lot. I was just trying to show that not everything was about Bobby Orr like you seemed to make it that way. Maybe it was becasue of what others said but it came across like it was Orr or nothing. My whole point about the European influence used by the Oilers was not all about what Orr did. That is all. I never said that Orr never influenced other defenceman or allowing defencemen to rush the puck. Only that not all systems utilize this because if you do not have a defenceman like him then it will not work that is all
Having a true rushing Dman doesn't matter, even the most conservative of defenders will not hesitate to jump into the play if it will create an odd man rush.
Something like this you take for granted in today's game but 40 years ago that same defender most likely would of gotten benched for it.
It's not that I don't think you understand that Orr did indeed change things, I just think that you don't fully comprehend the degree.

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He just might be but Gretzky's skill, vision, hockey sense and ability to do things no other ever did before or after, and most of all excellence for almost 20 years is another good package too
Indeed it was, best offensive player in history.

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08-24-2010, 03:27 AM
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You are totally right No defenceman that mathces or Offensively that can match his defense. There is no defenceman that matches or defensicely that could match him offensively. The problem is the same thing can be said for gretzky reason being that any Center that could match him offensively could not match him defensively. The reason is their isn't any player in the history of the NHL that comes close to Gretzky's pure offensive skill. Any Center that was as good as him defensively or even better then him could not match his offensive skill either.

The problem when comparing defenceman and Centers is that to a degree every defenceman has to be able to something decent defensively. However a Center can be just pure offence and be the best in the game just on offensive skill. Teams that have a Gretzky on their team do not need him to be defensive because his offense is that great.

If Bobby Orr was a 10 in offence then Gretzky is like 13. Bobby Orr is better then Gretzky defensively, a lot better but he was also a defenceman. Maybe Orr 8 Gretzky 4 Gretzky was better at faceoffs does that make him better? OF course not it is just that the responsibilities of a Center are different then for a defenceman that is why Orr being better defensively does not matter just like Gretzky being better then Orr offensively does not matter either. It is impossible to compare the two except agaisnt their own position and once agian even then it won't work because Orr was the first of his kind and Gretzky was the greatest ever at his postion.
I don't even know where to start with this post.....
First off, imo it would be more like Orr was an 11 offensively and Gretzky was a 12 while Orr would easily be a 9 defensively and Gretzky was a 4 (3 in the 80's, 5 in the 90's).

Unfortunately your assessment doesn't hold up with the numbers. Gretzky's offense + defense does not hold a candle to Orr's offense + defense, even in Gretzky's best 10 years.

Both of their teams averaged 11 goals scored per 10 against when they were not on the ice.
When Orr was on the ice, his team averaged 22 goals for to every 10 against.
When Gretzky was on the ice, his team averaged 15.4 goals for to every 10 goals against.

I'm sorry but Orr's dominance in all zones was greater than Gretzky's dominance in the offensive zone.


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08-24-2010, 03:33 AM
  #42
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If Orr was the best then why did this panel select Gretzky as number one in 1998?

The judges involved in making the selections for this list included writers, journalists, and broadcasters (Don Cherry, John Davidson, Milt Dunnell, Stan Fischler, Dick Irvin, Brian McFarlane, Bob McKenzie, Jim Matheson, Harry Neale, Frank Orr), as well as coaches, referees, general managers, and former players (Al Arbour, Scotty Bowman, Emile Francis, Howie Meeker, Scotty Morrison, Roger Neilson, Bud Poile, Sam Pollock, Marcel Pronovost, Billy Reay, Glen Sather, Harry Sinden, Red Storey).

Can anyone explain why a panel loaded with such hockey expertise would choose Gretzky over Orr?
Compliments of bleeney from part 1 of this thread.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=895

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Originally posted by bleeney
Are you aware of how close that poll was?

Gretzky: 2,726 voting points
Orr had: 2,713 voting points
Howe: 2,681 points

Both Orr and Gretzky had 18 first-place votes (out of a possible 50). The difference between Orr and Gretzky came down to just 13 points, a difference of less than half of one per cent.

And speaking of biased opinions, there was one member of that panel who, I believe, let his personal dislike of Orr cloud his judgement and lose all objectivity: Stan Fischler.

Even though I obviously disagree, I understand why some pick Gretzky or Howe over Orr. Likewise, most Gretzky fans would disagree, but understand why some would pick Orr or Howe over Gretzky. But if someone were to submit a top five list, and not even have Gretzky on it, most of us would be stunned.

But Fischler did that to Orr? And here's why:

In 1969 he wrote Bobby Orr and the Big Bad Bruins, which is practically a work of adoration towards Orr. The inside cover reads:
THE BIG BAD BRUINS-Led by the Greatest Ever.
He goes on to praise Orr as the greatest thing since sliced bread, comparing him favourably to Howe, Shore, Harvey, Richard. It's a fantastic book, one that I have read several times.

But Orr took offense to his name being used without his permission, and confronted Fischler. At one point he actually contemplated a lawsuit (it may sound petty, but Orr was an Eagleson client, at a time when players were just beginning to realise their rights and the money that could be made through endorsements). Fischler was shocked. This was unheard of at the time, and was the beginning of a long feud between Orr and Fischler, one that to my knowledge has never ended. Almost immediately Fischler became highly critical of Orr, to the point of being ridiculous. How ridiculous?

In his book All-Time Book of Hockey Lists, on pg 71-72 he lists "The 100 Best Players of All Time". He had Gretzky ranked third, behind Howe and Lemieux. Okay. But unbelievably, he ranked Orr #14! He went from fawning over Orr like a smitten schoolgirl, calling him the "greatest ever", to dropping him all the way down to 14th. This was a feud, and it looks like Fischler got the last shot in.

As I said, he lost all objectivity when it came to Bobby Orr, and it had nothing to do with Orr as a player. It was personal. Not including Orr in his top five cost Orr votes.

Can you say margin of victory?


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08-24-2010, 03:41 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post

Having a true rushing Dman doesn't matter, even the most conservative of defenders will not hesitate to jump into the play if it will create an odd man rush.
Something like this you take for granted in today's game but 40 years ago that same defender most likely would of gotten benched for it.
It's not that I don't think you understand that Orr did indeed change things, I just think that you don't fully comprehend the degree.
Now I never saw these guys play but Red Kelley, Eddie Shore, were defenceman that rushed the puck and three others that i think were defencmena but in some places I also think I read that they played forward too Flash Hollet, Babe Pratt and Bill Gadsby but can not for sure say that they were primarily defenceman. but if they were I know I have reasd they were known to rush the puck before Bobby Orr. You are right though that most of the times coaches would bench or even cut a defenceman that even thought about it. I am just trying to say that even Bobby Orr and his talents were not the first he was just the best at it where the coach could do nothing but let him go because he was too good.

Oh I comprehend the degree of what Orr did. I mean every time a defenceman does anything that is amazing offensively. It is a safe bet that Orr not only did it but did it better. Every defenceman that wants to rush the puck is doing what Bobby Orr made popular and acceptable I just can not agree that everything in the offensive game is a result of Bobby Orr that is all. That is all I am disputing. Not his legacy to the game just that with everything it is a combination of everything of all players that play the game. Like I said he might have had the most influence then any other player ever but it did not start with him and it will not end with him. The game keeps on growing and maybe not this year or next year but someday someone will come up with something or play a style that totally changes hockey again. That is all. I mean if you were around in the 70's you know there were many players that played the power forward role but Neely made it popular. and today every time a player is bigger then 6'4 they try and label him as a power forward. That is what my argument was all about. As Gretzky used to say no player is bigger then the game, mind you some come close though

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08-24-2010, 04:04 AM
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Now I never saw these guys play but Red Kelley, Eddie Shore, were defenceman that rushed the puck and three others that i think were defencmena but in some places I also think I read that they played forward too Flash Hollet, Babe Pratt and Bill Gadsby but can not for sure say that they were primarily defenceman. but if they were I know I have reasd they were known to rush the puck before Bobby Orr. You are right though that most of the times coaches would bench or even cut a defenceman that even thought about it. I am just trying to say that even Bobby Orr and his talents were not the first he was just the best at it where the coach could do nothing but let him go because he was too good.

Oh I comprehend the degree of what Orr did. I mean every time a defenceman does anything that is amazing offensively. It is a safe bet that Orr not only did it but did it better. Every defenceman that wants to rush the puck is doing what Bobby Orr made popular and acceptable I just can not agree that everything in the offensive game is a result of Bobby Orr that is all. That is all I am disputing. Not his legacy to the game just that with everything it is a combination of everything of all players that play the game. Like I said he might have had the most influence then any other player ever but it did not start with him and it will not end with him. The game keeps on growing and maybe not this year or next year but someday someone will come up with something or play a style that totally changes hockey again. That is all. I mean if you were around in the 70's you know there were many players that played the power forward role but Neely made it popular. and today every time a player is bigger then 6'4 they try and label him as a power forward. That is what my argument was all about. As Gretzky used to say no player is bigger then the game, mind you some come close though
Hey look, if you don't believe that Orr's opening of the door provided the single biggest aspect of how offenses are structured around the world to this day, then so be it.
Agree to disagree then.

As far as Shore goes or anyone from before WWII, that's a real tough thing to quantify due to the various and sometimes major rule differences.
Kelly played a lot of forward and I haven't seen anyone provide definitive stats showing what he did and from where.

No offsides till '29
No forward passing till the '30's
No Icing till '37
No redline till '49


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08-24-2010, 04:16 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by greatgazoo View Post
If Orr was the best then why did this panel select Gretzky as number one in 1998?

The judges involved in making the selections for this list included writers, journalists, and broadcasters (Don Cherry, John Davidson, Milt Dunnell, Stan Fischler, Dick Irvin, Brian McFarlane, Bob McKenzie, Jim Matheson, Harry Neale, Frank Orr), as well as coaches, referees, general managers, and former players (Al Arbour, Scotty Bowman, Emile Francis, Howie Meeker, Scotty Morrison, Roger Neilson, Bud Poile, Sam Pollock, Marcel Pronovost, Billy Reay, Glen Sather, Harry Sinden, Red Storey).

Can anyone explain why a panel loaded with such hockey expertise would choose Gretzky over Orr?
Yes, I might be wrong but my guess is that these people saw both of them play

Then again, at least for me it's nearly impossible to look at a player and his career (longevity, numbers etc.) separately and just put the focus on "who is the best player you've ever seen", and at the end of the day, that's why I personally find it impossible to pick Orr... not that I know how these experts came to their own conclusions.

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08-24-2010, 06:11 AM
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Correct Years

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Hey look, if you don't believe that Orr's opening of the door provided the single biggest aspect of how offenses are structured around the world to this day, then so be it.
Agree to disagree then.

As far as Shore goes or anyone from before WWII, that's a real tough thing to quantify due to the various and sometimes major rule differences.
Kelly played a lot of forward and I haven't seen anyone provide definitive stats showing what he did and from where.

No offsides till '29
No forward passing till the '30's
No Icing till '37
No redline till '49
Respectively
1929-30 early season
1929-30
1939
1943-44

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08-24-2010, 06:36 AM
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Respectively
1929-30 early season
1929-30
1939
1943-44
Respectively...I have 3 sources saying '37 for icing and 1 saying '39.
I also have 2 sources saying '49 for the redline and 2 saying 43.

What are you using, an official source and if so, would you mind sharing it please

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08-24-2010, 07:09 AM
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Trail of the Stanley Cup

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Respectively...I have 3 sources saying '37 for icing and 1 saying '39.
I also have 2 sources saying '49 for the redline and 2 saying 43.

What are you using, an official source and if so, would you mind sharing it please
Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol. II 1927-1946 by Charles L. Coleman.

Icing p.314, forward pass, offside pages 82-87, red line p. 474.

Kindly share your sources so that they may be corrected or ignored.

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08-24-2010, 07:54 AM
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Compliments of bleeney from part 1 of this thread.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=895
None of that post answers anything the pervious poster was asking. THe poster was asking about great hockey minds like Sam Pollock, Al Arbour, Dick Irvin, Scotty Bowman, Don Cherry, Harry Neale and Harry Sinden.

You then posted Bleeneys post that has nothing to do with what was asked.

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08-24-2010, 09:54 AM
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Orr would easily be a 9 defensively and Gretzky was a 4 (3 in the 80's, 5 in the 90's).
.
I think Gretzky got worse defensively in the 1990s... a lot worse.

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