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Sather: What more?

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Old
08-24-2010, 04:45 PM
  #26
OldStanley
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I guess it depends on what the goal is.

Operating under the premise that the Rangers exist to win or contend, I disagree, I do not think many GMs would make similar moves.

If generating revenue by providing entertainment is the plan, I could see other GMs following suit.

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08-24-2010, 04:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by OldStanley View Post
I guess it depends on what the goal is.

Operating under the premise that the Rangers exist to win or contend, I disagree, I do not think many GMs would make similar moves.

If generating revenue by providing entertainment is the plan, I could see other GMs following suit.
Making it deep into the playoffs would bring untold millions to Dolan. Because of Sather, Dolan is out all those millions.

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08-24-2010, 04:52 PM
  #28
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Right now we're not in a bad position as far as the organization goes and we have more young players in the lineup than usual. I think getting Tortorella was a mistake and a lot of my judgment on Sather will depend on what he does re Tortorella when the disorganization eventually shows in the results.

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08-24-2010, 04:59 PM
  #29
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Right now we're not in a bad position as far as the organization goes and we have more young players in the lineup than usual. I think getting Tortorella was a mistake and a lot of my judgment on Sather will depend on what he does re Tortorella when the disorganization eventually shows in the results.
A lot of my judgement will be what he does with the soon to be freed up cap space (Redden being waived, Rozsival possibly traded after this season)... If he makes some key acquisitions either via Free Agency or through trades & re-signs, I believe it could drastically alter the level this team competes at.... Right now Drury/Redden/Rozsival = $18.6 mil of poor value return/production....

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Old
08-24-2010, 05:18 PM
  #30
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Making it deep into the playoffs would bring untold millions to Dolan. Because of Sather, Dolan is out all those millions.
I think that depends on what generate the most revenue. If sponsorship generates more guarantied money than making or advancing in the playoffs can, and the GMs job according to ownership is to maximize profits yearly, it's quite possible the emphasis is put on building a team which is marketable every year rather than building a long term winning team.

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Old
08-24-2010, 06:06 PM
  #31
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I'd prefer a young, hungry, up-and comer to take over kinda like how Neil Smith was rather than someone who was a great player like Messier with little or no scouting experience. Smith was a scout for years with the Islanders, their minor league GM, and then an Assistant with the Wings.

And it doesn't have to be from the Wings Organization; like what Chiarelli's done in Boston or Pollie in Nashville; young and hungry.

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08-24-2010, 06:13 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Making it deep into the playoffs would bring untold millions to Dolan. Because of Sather, Dolan is out all those millions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldStanley View Post
I think that depends on what generate the most revenue. If sponsorship generates more guarantied money than making or advancing in the playoffs can, and the GMs job according to ownership is to maximize profits yearly, it's quite possible the emphasis is put on building a team which is marketable every year rather than building a long term winning team.
What brings Dolan cash more than playoff revenue is:

Season ticket holders(check)
Sponsorship...which has already been mentioned(check)
Concessions & Luxury Box Suites...soon to be addressed by the rennovation(basically a check)

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Old
08-24-2010, 06:20 PM
  #33
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This team is basically in a hole until Redden, Drury and to a lesser extent Roszival come off contract. I really think that no GM will be able to do anything monumental, or even helpful (not including keeping our prospects and young core) to "turn the team around." Operating off the idea that Sather has at the minimum enough time left as GM to make moves after his bad contracts, I pray to the hockey gods that the Gomez, Drury, Roszy and Redden saga has shown Sather that paying 6-7 million to anything less than proven elite talent in their prime is not the way to operate.

We have to remember that what happened with Drury was really just unlucky, in my honest opinion. He had a 37 goal season and was great in the playoffs for Buffalo the year before we signed him. If he had continued to keep that stride, i'd say he'd be very much worth the money we're paying him. Roszival is not a terrible player, and definitely not Redden terrible, but he's not worth 6 million. I'd really be fine with resigning Roszi and maybe even Drury with a MUCH LOWER cap hit.

Redden is the epitome of Sather's inability to be a successful GM in the salary cap era. While in theory the Salary cap should have helped turn Sather into a more effective GM by negating the one thing he did that was crippling us (signing veterans not named Jagr ), he does the same thing and GROSSLY overpays for a Redden who's hit a downward spiral, overpays for Roszi, and slightly overpays for Drury, which has become a huge overpayment since he's appeared to have lost his stride.

What should we do? Well, we probably SHOULD have dumped Sather years ago when he went on his veteran signing spree, because that shows if there wasn't a cap put in place our team would be all 70 year old veterans traded for the expense of the awesome prospects in our organization . However, and believe me I am NOT advocating Sather as a good GM and would be extremely happy if we replaced him with someone, I'm fine with waiting 2 years, letting our prospects develop, letting the bad contracts drop off, and going from there. If Sather even touches the prospects, i'd throw him out.

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08-24-2010, 06:24 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Please consider the following statement.



If we take this as true, how should we handle Sather? Should we kick him to the curb or give him more time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
That's likely the case but we're evaluating Sather's employment status based on his past, and on the likelihood that another GM would merely be making the same moves as Sather.

If background helps, the initial poster actually stipulated that this would apply to a "golden" GM. Messier obviously hasn't earned that particular stamp.

Since i'm the "original poster" that is being quoted here...

the context of my statement as orginally given was that all of the things that are currently active with this club: emphasis on drafting talent, bringing in young talent via, free agency, trades, etc., continuing to integrate youth in our active roster...

These are all things that I would want to see a GM do for the NYR right now. Regardless of Sather's mishaps from the past he's doing right (relatively speaking)
at the moment.

Who is the magic GM that the OP proposes and what will he do that isn't going
on right now? He doesn't say. He just wants SAther gone because of his past errors.

My opinion is that Sather should stay on to right the ship (Rid Redden, groom Messier, etc.) and retire within the next few years.

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Old
08-24-2010, 06:25 PM
  #35
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who would have thought hiring Sather was the real Y2K major glitch?

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Old
08-24-2010, 07:10 PM
  #36
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10 years is more than enough for any GM. In defense he had to rebuild the whole organization and at the same time put a product on the ice to sell tickets and sponsorships. In trying to do this he made the huge mistake trying to acquire stop gap, over the hill vets that he seriously ovepaid. Poor choices in some of their 1st round picks further stunted the progress of the organization.

Now 10 years later he seems to have found a excellent combo in Clark & Gorton. I'm not sold on Torts as a coach. I think he is a B.S. artist. There is no one in the organization that has the right mix as a coach so we have to bring in someone like Torts.

At the least I think we are 2 years away from seeing some of the quality picks we have made in the last couple of years. But that means that there has been a lag with the previous 8 years. That is evidence that finds Sather guility as charged.

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08-24-2010, 07:14 PM
  #37
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[QUOTE=wolfgaze;27511295]A lot of my judgement will be what he does with the soon to be freed up cap space (Redden being waived, Rozsival possibly traded after this season)... If he makes some key acquisitions either via Free Agency or through trades & re-signs, I believe it could drastically alter the level this team competes at.... Right now Drury/Redden/Rozsival = $18.6 mil of poor value return/production....[/QUOTE]

this i agree with entirely.

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Old
08-24-2010, 08:14 PM
  #38
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If Drury stinks this year just buy him out already. It would only be two years, the first year is $3.6777 and the second would be a mere $1.6777. With him bought out, White off the cap, Eminger off the cap, Redden in Hartford, Prospal most likely gone, and who knows with Frolov, that should be more than enough to resign Cally/Dubi/Artie, AND to get Brad Richards or even Joe Thorton here while having a boatload of dough for 2012 when Avery and Rozi are gone.

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Old
08-24-2010, 09:03 PM
  #39
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I wish a reporter would ask Sather "what have you learned about handling contracts over the last 10 years?" This is the one thing I would like to hear most about from Sather.

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Old
08-24-2010, 10:46 PM
  #40
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Having your say about that is the entire objective of this thread. If you want to make another thread about who is going to be available years down the road, go ahead.
I did that a few months back but the mods deleted it on the grounds that we are only suppossed to talk about this off-season yet everywhere you look people talk about the next year - 3 years so...good job by the mods lol.

Also I don't think we should give Sather time tos crew up again. I have a weird feeling he actually will do it right this time b/c Gordie and the scouts have done it for him but I don't want to take the risk.

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Old
08-24-2010, 10:55 PM
  #41
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Haven't we already replaced Redden's cap hit considering that once Staal is signed and Redden is in the minors we will be right near the ceiling. Therefore why are we still saying that we have that 6.5 million to upgrade the team?

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Old
08-24-2010, 10:57 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by OldStanley View Post
I guess it depends on what the goal is.

Operating under the premise that the Rangers exist to win or contend, I disagree, I do not think many GMs would make similar moves.

If generating revenue by providing entertainment is the plan, I could see other GMs following suit.
The latter might be a good argument, but the quality of the product on the ice for the vast majority of Sather's tenure has been less than stellar (with the two years after the lockout being the exception). Teams don't only make money buy selling season tickets, actually getting the people to go to the game and buy things from the concession stands is a big money maker.

Teams that play interesting hockey generate more revenue. Teams that win generate even more. The product on the ice matters. It matters when it comes time to renew season tickets, it matters for how much food and merchandise is sold at the games and it matters for TV ratings. Better product=more revenue. I can't see how the majority of Sather's tenure has added value.

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08-24-2010, 11:00 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Right now we're not in a bad position as far as the organization goes and we have more young players in the lineup than usual. I think getting Tortorella was a mistake and a lot of my judgment on Sather will depend on what he does re Tortorella when the disorganization eventually shows in the results.
How can you trust Sather to find the right coach after the current one is fired? It's not as if this team has had great coaches during Sather's tenure. Pretty much only Tom Renney had any success the last 10 years.

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08-25-2010, 12:46 AM
  #44
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The latter might be a good argument, but the quality of the product on the ice for the vast majority of Sather's tenure has been less than stellar (with the two years after the lockout being the exception). Teams don't only make money buy selling season tickets, actually getting the people to go to the game and buy things from the concession stands is a big money maker.

Teams that play interesting hockey generate more revenue. Teams that win generate even more. The product on the ice matters. It matters when it comes time to renew season tickets, it matters for how much food and merchandise is sold at the games and it matters for TV ratings. Better product=more revenue. I can't see how the majority of Sather's tenure has added value.
But as far as I know, these haven't been huge issues even under Sather.

Season tix still are getting sold at a satisfactory clip, food & merchandise is still going strong. I don't know about ratings but obviously they haven't been so horrid that there has been an alarm raised regarding them.

So, at worst, the value hasn't gone down at least from those perspectives. For some, especially in these economic times, that could be justified as doing enough.

P.S.-Don't count me as one of those "some".

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08-25-2010, 03:26 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
How can you trust Sather to find the right coach after the current one is fired? It's not as if this team has had great coaches during Sather's tenure. Pretty much only Tom Renney had any success the last 10 years.
I don't trust him to find the right coach, but that's secondary to making the decision to pull the plug on Tortorella before the inevitable 10, 20, 30 game swoon kills the season. After last season's display, Tortorella can't organize, motivate or lead these players. This is Sather's primary job after signing Staal.

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08-25-2010, 04:37 AM
  #46
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Glen Sather may go down as one of the worst gm's in Rangers history he's been so bad. I'm not just saying that either, he's been friggin horrible. If it weren't for Hank it would be so much worse, oh so much worse.

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08-25-2010, 04:38 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
I don't trust him to find the right coach, but that's secondary to making the decision to pull the plug on Tortorella before the inevitable 10, 20, 30 game swoon kills the season. After last season's display, Tortorella can't organize, motivate or lead these players. This is Sather's primary job after signing Staal.
OK so what will that be for Slats? Coach number 5 he will have canned? How many coaches do you need to go through before you realize the real problem?

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08-25-2010, 06:36 AM
  #48
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How much can one possibly complain about Sather? It is what it is... You don't even know if he'll be the GM in two years time, nor which UFA's will be available to target.... The Gaborik signing certainly didn't bite us in the ass yet, did it?
"Yet" is the most important word in your comment. If that "yet" happens, the disaster of Gomez and Redden will pale in comparison. And some here will still not understand just how incompetent the head buffoon is.

By the way, I am not looking at all of this in hindsight. I was dead-set against his coming here in the first place after he destroyed Edmonton, which contrary to the prevailing opinion, he had only a minor part in building. He was gifted the two biggest pieces.

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08-25-2010, 06:38 AM
  #49
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Glen Sather may go down as one of the worst gm's in Rangers history he's been so bad. I'm not just saying that either, he's been friggin horrible. If it weren't for Hank it would be so much worse, oh so much worse.

Right now he's at #2 BUT if the young kids pan out thanks to Gordie Clark, he could actually go out on a better note.

1. Phil Esposito-Trades every week, gave up a first rounder for a coach he fired a little over a year later, got rid of Ridley, Miller, Tinordi, Gagner, Kjell Samuelson, and Reijo R for nothing much. He DID draft Tony Amonte though so that was his going away gift.

2. Sather-Seems to finally be getting it right but two playoff series victories in ten years isn't a good percentage. The final verdict will be how the guys Gordie Clark picked turn out.

3. John Ferguson-He made it to the Cup Finals and came oh so close but three major goofs tainted his legacy. Middleton for Hodge was a disaster, picking Deblios over Bossy, and his 1979 draft which could have put the Rangers over the top was very mediocre. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1979e.html

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08-25-2010, 06:42 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
How can you trust Sather to find the right coach after the current one is fired? It's not as if this team has had great coaches during Sather's tenure. Pretty much only Tom Renney had any success the last 10 years.
What about Trottier?

Remember that Sather hired him because Trottier wrote on paper instead of on a computer. This impressed the Village Idiot. But we should give him another chance to hire a coach.

Sather is lucky that some fans think he is a miracle just waiting to happen. Or, more accurately, that a man who inherited a fortune and a hockey team has not a clue how to do much of anything, except for putting together a band to showcase his "great talent".

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