HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sather: What more?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-25-2010, 11:15 AM
  #76
GAGLine
Registered User
 
GAGLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
My 2 assertions are logical opposites to you only because you define his moves as “mistakes”.

The Kotalik signing on paper was a good move. He is a perennial 20g scorer and is PP threat, not to
Mention chemistry with the Captain. It’s only a mistake to you because you have the benefit of seeing it in retrospect.

No it didn’t work out, but we wouldn’t be the first team to have a player not fit in. Should we stop signing UFAs?
Is that what the “new’ GM should do? Will he know ahead of time if a player will work out or not? Will he have crystal ball
Like you do?
Hockey isn't played on paper. And yes, I do have the benefit of hindsight, but I also called it a bad signing when the signing was made.

Furthermore, should we judge the GM based on whether or not it seemed like a good idea at the time? No. The management of every professional sports organization gets judged on results. Nothing more, nothing less. Many people questioned the McIlrath pick this year, but if he turns into a great player, are people still going to blast Clark for making the pick? Nope.

Sather gets paid to have foresight. He gets paid to make the right moves. Just because they look good on paper means nothing. If the moves he makes don't work out in practice, then they were the wrong moves and he should be held accountable for them.

I think this is the fallacy of your entire argument. You (and a few others) think it's wrong to judge Sather based on hindsight. But that's the only way he should be judged, because the bottom line is winning. Whether or not you agreed with the move when it was made is irrelevant. Did the move help us win? That is what matters. And with nearly every move Sather has ever made, the answer is an emphatic "no".

Quote:
You define the Boogaard contract as a “mistake”. It’s an overpayment, to me but not a mistake. I like the signing.
In the cap era NHL, it IS a mistake. Every player you overpay means less money to spend elsewhere. Teams can have overpaid players if they have other players who are outplaying their contracts. Who on our team is outplaying their contract? Vinny Prospal is probably the only one, but that isn't close to enough to make up for Redden, Drury and Rozy (and now Boogaard).

But we do have several overpaid players already, and by your own admission, Sather added another one in Boogaard. This is the man you want to keep on as GM? This is the man you think has improved?

Answer me this one question. Do you think the Rangers will be worse over the next 2 years if Sather were to be replaced today? And if you do, why?


Last edited by GAGLine: 08-25-2010 at 11:28 AM.
GAGLine is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 11:35 AM
  #77
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
From NikC on 7/23/10:

Quote:
This GM and his staff have lost the benefit of every doubt. Sather should have adhered to the “youth program”
As promised immediately after the lockout. He caught lighting in a bottle with Jagr and Nylander and he was
Diverted from the plan. We went from trying to be just competitive, to seeing if we can ‘win it all”.

He never committed to the Jagr experiment, and changed directions with Gomez and Drury, and now he’s changed
Directions again to a team that features one Scorer with questionable durability, a franchise goalie, a half-baked defense, and a string of 3rd line grinders.

The decent core of Staal, Girardi, Dubinsky, Callahan, Gabs, and Henrik is simply far too lacking in talent. We are spinning our wheels with a top 5 goalie keeping a talent deficient team in games that they have no business being in. This ensures we’ll barely make/miss the post season helping us avoid the high position draft picks that a true rebuilding team can use to bring in true rebuilding talent. Once again, this perpetuates the utter directionless state of affairs that was the 98’-04’ years.


Now there is now a lot of talk on the official site about bright futures regarding our prospects. This is rather convenient since our GM’s hands have been tied by the 3 foolish contracts of Redden, Rosival, and Drury which amounts to over $18m. He has proven so far that he is unable to improve the team if he wanted to. And while I’d like to believe that Stephan, Krieder, and Grachev are every bit as good as promised, I’m reminded of: Pavel Brendal, Christian Dube, Tyutin, Jessiman, Korpikowski, Montoya, and most recently Sanguinetti who had every bit as much as promise as the former players mentioned, was traded for picks.

If deficiencies in scouting and drafting weren’t enough, player development and asset management has also been abysmal as we see
Players such as: Dawes, Prucha, Korpikowski, Montoya, Tyutin* and most recently Sanguanetti held onto too long or let go too soon with the NYR getting nothing back in return.

*Tyutin could be a much needed 4th defenseman on this team right now, but he left in a deal for player with a history
Of KNOWN issues, ones that have kept the team from resigning him after only one year of service.

Our Gm is now an NHL derelict left to scour the bargins bins of the NHL looking for waiver wire reclamation projects like Christensen, and aging streaky players like Prospal who were only marginally effective when younger. Not since Alexei Kovalev (Savard) has this franchise drafted a top six forward that has STAYED ON THIS TEAM, much less scored 25-30g! That’s over 17 years!!!!

So after all is said and done, with the arrival of Grachev, Stephan, Krieder, McIlrath in the the next 2-4 yrs HOPEFULLY, plus the
The several season needed to acclimate to the NHL, HOPEFULLY we’ll be a competitive team in about 3-6yrs.

Great.

Quote:
that is a well deserved dilemma that our GM earned for himself. Listen I can appreciate the few good things he does here and there, but this "go with the youth" approach should have been in place and adhered to the FIRST TIME he stated that was the direction after the lockout. He has changed directions and turned over this roster so many times since the lockout it's sickening.

he has operated with reckless abandon, and now he's trying to end his career (hopefully) on the very convenient "youth for the future" program. All this amounts to is him being unable to make this team better in the present because of the dead weight salaries this team carries.


Certainly a ringing endorsement there. Did you have some sort of epiphany in the 4 weeks since making those comments? Or are you just changing your stance for the sake of "winning" an argument. If the theme here is contradiction...well, in the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo: you have some 'esplainin to do, Lucy.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...1#post27059741


Last edited by Shadowtron: 08-25-2010 at 11:44 AM.
Shadowtron is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 11:59 AM
  #78
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
From NikC on 7/23/10:








Certainly a ringing endorsement there. Did you have some sort of epiphany in the 4 weeks since making those comments? Or are you just changing your stance for the sake of "winning" an argument. If the theme here is contradiction...well, in the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo: you have some 'esplainin to do, Lucy.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...1#post27059741
none whatsoever. the problem is, equating me and others believing that Sather having a good offseason and being relatively better now than pre lockout equates to: "I love and endorse all things Sather".

all throughout the impressive post i've stated my disdain overall for Sather.

NikC is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 12:04 PM
  #79
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Revealing the contradictions in your own language isn't amatter of opinion, NikC. It's only a matter of looking at your statements.


That's hardly credible when you ranged from the OP so frequently and when you answered my other questions.


Yep. Revealing the contradictions in your own language isn't amatter of opinion, NikC. It's only a matter of looking at your statements.

And since you've not quoted him, I assume your silence is your admission that Vito was not claiming to offer a more valid opinion than yours.
Nope. Righting the ship means just that. I said never he accomplished that already, and Iíve stated
Several times that he has more work to do to right the ship. Also Iíve stated I want him gone
In a few years.

Turning around a Tenure means a reversal of his whole time here, thereís a big difference there
And that would take longer than just 2 yrs.


Youíre manipulating words here, pulling things out of context and making assumptions.

NikC is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 12:09 PM
  #80
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
none whatsoever. the problem is, equating me and others believing that Sather having a good offseason and being relatively better now than pre lockout equates to: "I love and endorse all things Sather".

all throughout the impressive post i've stated my disdain overall for Sather.
For the record, I never lumped into any category. I took your impressions/opinions at face value. But the above just doesn't jive with the way you've been defending Sather beyond just this off season. 4 weeks ago he did not have the benefit of the doubt...today he does. Our "NHL derelict" of a GM should be allowed to right the ship? What changed during this timeframe? How do you accuse him of perpetuating the "utter directionlessness of '98-'04" yet also charge that: " he has been "better" post lockout. This isn't an opinion it is fact." How are you drawing these conclusions as they seem to completely contradict each other.


Last edited by Shadowtron: 08-25-2010 at 12:26 PM.
Shadowtron is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 12:11 PM
  #81
Vito Andolini
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
well thatís your opinion which you qualify by saying: ď I thinkĒ. That doesnít make what you
Say any more valid than what Iíve said.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Of course my statement is an opinion, that's why I intentionally wrote "I think".

You're opinion is to clear Sather of his past mistakes because he's doing "right" now. My opinion, as stated, is that he's only doing "right" because of his past mistakes and if given the opportunity to get out from under his mistakes, he'll make brand new mistakes because he's not a good GM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Weíre not the only team that have struggled with the Cap.
What happened with the hawks is a tragedy imo.
Right, other GM's make big mistakes too and they are fired for it; not given a lifetime pass.

What happened to the Hawks isn't a tragedy. It's the result of their own foolish mistakes by handing out unnecessary and overpriced contracts to Campbell & Huet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
The market for high priced talent is high today.
Weíre paying dearly because Drury,Redden, and Rosival arenít giving us the production theyíre being paid
For. Flyers fans were pretty upset about the Briere contract up until this past season.
The player that signs the contract must take some of the responsibility here as well.
I don't think I want to even get into this right now. Let's just say we have a huge difference in opinion here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
2. Look at everything that Sather and NYR management are focusing on at the moment. Iím just reiterating
What they are saying.
Oh, so you're just passing on the company line? Do you actually buy it?

Vito Andolini is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 12:33 PM
  #82
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post

Oh, so you're just passing on the company line? Do you actually buy it?
Unlikely, unless he's implying something else with this:

Quote:
The new "Going with Youth" program sounds good, but it may just be a nice PR spin to salvage the image of the franchise, while Sather saves face and Torts maintains a degree of credibility here.
and this:

Quote:
I think the "go with the youth" program is a real stretch. It gives both Sather and Torts crediblility and longevity with the franchise
and this:

Quote:
I'm sorry i reserve the right to be skeptical here but I'm not buying this half @$$ rebuild. I hope i'm proven wrong but this "youth movement" may be nothing but a ruse constructed to keep Torts and Sather employed for a few more years in NY.


Last edited by Shadowtron: 08-25-2010 at 12:41 PM.
Shadowtron is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 01:58 PM
  #83
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
For the record, I never lumped into any category. I took your impressions/opinions at face value. But the above just doesn't jive with the way you've been defending Sather beyond just this off season. 4 weeks ago he did not have the benefit of the doubt...today he does. Our "NHL derelict" of a GM should be allowed to right the ship? What changed during this timeframe? How do you accuse him of perpetuating the "utter directionlessness of '98-'04" yet also charge that: " he has been "better" post lockout. This isn't an opinion it is fact." How are you drawing these conclusions as they seem to completely contradict each other.




Columbo,

The context of this post was: NYR glass half empty or full and dealt with the OVERALL status of the NYR.

If you read through that post carefully you would see that it was predictive in nature with a lot of vacillation from many posters.

In that particular thread my first post was:

#57 off season is still underway. this post is premature.

The title of the post youíre quoting from specifically says:
#91 is titled: Half empty until PROVEN half full.

Look what moderator Trxjw says in #74
ďI feel like I'm teetering between both, but whenever I lean towards the positive element, Sather drives his money machine into the glass and cracks it.Ē

The next time TRXJW speaks negatively/positively regarding the NYR are you going to go through such lengths to show his apparent ďcontradictionsĒ? Or any other of the posters who are talking out of both sides of their mouths in that thread?

I posted a very negative outlook on the rangers but clarified in an earlier post saying the post was premature to begin with and that they needed to PROVE otherwise.

*I posted this before the Frolov signing and the Brashear/Rissmiller salary dump, which while not earth shattering were positive to me regarding this off-season.


In the ďSather Impressive offseason postĒ I wrote:

#793
The NYR are in transition right now. We are all in a state of ďwait and seeĒ....

#526
For some of you, some of his crimes are unforgivable. I understand that, and I am no Sather apologist...

... I want to see Sather retire just as much as the next guy. We all know heíll never be fired. Iíd like to see him right some wrongs before he leaves in terms of contracts.

So you see Iíve been maintaining an opinion of Satherís utter failure here in NY, while admitting some recent successes mainly this offseason. This doesnít fly with you or others here for some reason. There probably isnít one poster on this forum that believes Satherís tenure here is successful. But some are managing to see some good, and are getting castigated for it.

Have I vacillated in terms of being positive or negative about the NYR? Certainly. Name one fan on this board that doesnít at some point in time during the off-season. However I have been consistent in my posting my position. You and others just cant tolerate it.

NikC is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 02:57 PM
  #84
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Columbo,

The context of this post was: NYR glass half empty or full and dealt with the OVERALL status of the NYR.

If you read through that post carefully you would see that it was predictive in nature with a lot of vacillation from many posters.

In that particular thread my first post was:

#57 off season is still underway. this post is premature.

The title of the post you’re quoting from specifically says:
#91 is titled: Half empty until PROVEN half full.

Oh...no I read those as well. You can spin it as simple vacillation if you like, but the so-called context doesn't change what you wrote then and what you're fighting with others about now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Look what moderator Trxjw says in #74
“I feel like I'm teetering between both, but whenever I lean towards the positive element, Sather drives his money machine into the glass and cracks it.”

The next time TRXJW speaks negatively/positively regarding the NYR are you going to go through such lengths to show his apparent “contradictions”? Or any other of the posters who are talking out of both sides of their mouths in that thread?
Well, I'd like to think Trxjw would have a bit more respect for the opposing opinion, especially if he just had a conversion from it. You see, this isn't just about mere contradiction of opinion, but also about your almost constant and baseless labeling of people who have had to audacity to disagree with you. The humor of it is that, apparently, on any given day of the week you seem to share that very same opinion about the team and the GM. Does that mean that on THOSE DAYS you're also ignorant, dishonest, petty, intolerant, unforgiving, whiny, miserable, etc. etc. like the rest of us?


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
I posted a very negative outlook on the rangers but clarified in an earlier post saying the post was premature to begin with and that they needed to PROVE otherwise.
Your outlook also included a very scathing critique of the Rangers' GM as well as accusations that he's lying to the fanbase to prolong his employment. Remember that little dust up you had with dedalus regarding traditional and non-traditional rebuilds? The one where you're in total agreement with him, yet still argued it. Oh...sorry, you were merely quoting Sather.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
*I posted this before the Frolov signing and the Brashear/Rissmiller salary dump, which while not earth shattering were positive to me regarding this off-season.
So now he's not an NHL derelict GM and an utter failure? Frolov changes your opinion that the team will "make/miss the post season helping us avoid the high position draft picks that a true rebuilding team can use to bring in true rebuilding talent. Once again, this perpetuates the utter directionless state of affairs that was the 98’-04’ years." Funny, I feel the same way about the team more or less, yet I'm on the bad guys team. Go figure.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
*So you see I’ve been maintaining an opinion of Sather’s utter failure here in NY, while admitting some recent successes mainly this offseason. This doesn’t fly with you or others here for some reason. There probably isn’t one poster on this forum that believes Sather’s tenure here is successful. But some are managing to see some good, and are getting castigated for it.

An utter failure whom you've just spent days vehemently defending against others who consider him...an utter failure? Interesting twist here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Have I vacillated in terms of being positive or negative about the NYR? Certainly. Name one fan on this board that doesn’t at some point in time during the off-season. However I have been consistent in my posting my position. You and others just cant tolerate it.
A position that changes, it seems, from day to day.


Last edited by Shadowtron: 08-25-2010 at 03:15 PM.
Shadowtron is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 03:20 PM
  #85
OldStanley
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 103
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
The latter might be a good argument, but the quality of the product on the ice for the vast majority of Sather's tenure has been less than stellar (with the two years after the lockout being the exception). Teams don't only make money buy selling season tickets, actually getting the people to go to the game and buy things from the concession stands is a big money maker.

Teams that play interesting hockey generate more revenue. Teams that win generate even more. The product on the ice matters. It matters when it comes time to renew season tickets, it matters for how much food and merchandise is sold at the games and it matters for TV ratings. Better product=more revenue. I can't see how the majority of Sather's tenure has added value.
I think in certain markets where the fans and sponsors are only willing to financially support a winning team, that formula does apply.

In the Manhattan market, the Rangers still made a profit every year even when they were quite bad and missed the playoffs for several years in a row.

Is it plausible that it is easier and safer for Sather to generate profits by creating an annual buzz around the team in this market than it is to actually risk building a solid winning, yet boring team?

I guess I just have a difficult time believing that someone who has been around hockey his entire life is building this team with the belief that he is building a winner. The free agent signing just do support that theory. That is not to say I do not see improvements being made, I do. The motivation behind those improvements though is very much up for debate. Are they being forced upon the team due to the salary cap?


Last edited by OldStanley: 08-25-2010 at 03:30 PM.
OldStanley is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 03:24 PM
  #86
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Oh...no I read those as well. You can spin it as simple vacillation if you like, but the so-called context doesn't change what you wrote then and what you're fighting with others about now.




Well, I'd like to think Trxjw would have a bit more respect for the opposing opinion, especially if he just had a conversion from it. You see, this isn't just about mere contradiction of opinion, but also about your almost constant and baseless labeling of people who have had to audacity to disagree with you. The humor of it is that, apparently, on any given day of the week you seem to share that very same opinion about the team and the GM. Does that mean that on THOSE DAYS you're also ignorant, dishonest, petty, intolerant, unforgiving, whiny, miserable, etc. etc. like the rest of us?




Your outlook also included a very scathing critique of the Rangers' GM as well as accusations that he's lying to the fanbase to prolong his employment. Remember that little dust up you had with dedalus regarding traditional and non-traditional rebuilds? The one where you're in total agreement with him, yet still argued it. Oh...sorry, you were merely quoting Sather.





So now he's not an NHL derelict GM and an utter failure? Frolov changes your opinion that the team will "make/miss the post season helping us avoid the high position draft picks that a true rebuilding team can use to bring in true rebuilding talent. Once again, this perpetuates the utter directionless state of affairs that was the 98’-04’ years." Funny, I feel the same way about the team more or less, yet I'm on the bad guys team. Go figure.






An utter failure whom you've just spent days vehemently defending against others who consider him...an utter failure? Interesting twist here.




A position that changes, it seems, from day to day.

My position has not changed from day to day and I reaffirm everything I’ve written in post #83
Of this thread. I have demonstrated from all my recent postings to be consistent with my opinions regarding Sather overall and recently.

The Impressive post was derailed significantly by posters such as yourself in order to lambaste anyone who could see any good
In Sather offseason. This post was supposedly created to answer a special question from your batman buddy dedalus.
Seems you can’t stick to this OP either?

You were crying and whining about how sore you were in the last thread, because you were accused of lying, but essentially
That’s what you’re saying I’m doing by promoting: “a position that changes, it seems from day to day.

I thought it was from a month ago detective? Now I’m changing what I write every day? Seems like character assignation so
That you can continue to persecute anyone who doesn't want to stew in the misery you and others have created for yourself as a
Fan of this team?

NikC is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 03:31 PM
  #87
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,469
vCash: 500
OldStanley...

I think it's very possible that Sather thinks he's building a winner, and not just creating buzz, which he is also doing. The facts are, he came into a pretty bad situation: a team losing year after year, that had no youth in the lineup, a bare cupboard, and overpaid vets to boot.

OK, I give him that, it wasn't the easiest of situations, but he did have carte blanche to spend as much money as he wanted to spend, and spend he did, and while money alone cannot buy a team, if you're a real smart GM and the talent is available, you can do better than miss the playoffs with that payroll. His years leading into the lockout proved no better than previous years of his predecessor. Coaching decisions were suspect, trades were made to get better for "today" but didn't get better today and the team wasn't getting better for tomorrow. While four years may not be enough time to fill a cupboard that was bare, the team hadn't improved, and the youth wasn't replacing the vets. At that point, this guy should have been canned. But all along, he knew that his objective was to build a winner immediately, and to try to build a perennial winner. Sather isn't a business idiot. I believe he had ideas that there would be some sort of cap and he did structure a team that made sense coming out of the lockout. The Jagr move was a very good move; unfortunately he didn't have much else to build around such a dynamic player who did provide a lot of meaningful minutes. But that one move, or a good Summer, doesn't make his first four seasons any better.

Back on point...the guy believes he's building a winner. He finally realizes that players are getting old faster and youth is taking over. Unfortunately, he really hasn't put that young player in the lineup that wows everyone. He has safe, character guys, and when he went risky, he ended up with guys like Jessiman. Sather's past his prime, but many GMs get lucky here and there, and for our sake, let's hope Sather got lucky with some of the kids many are excited about currently on the Rangers.

Fletch is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 03:47 PM
  #88
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post

My position has not changed from day to day and I reaffirm everything I’ve written in post #83
Of this thread. I have demonstrated from all my recent postings to be consistent with my opinions regarding Sather overall and recently.

The Impressive post was derailed significantly by posters such as yourself in order to lambaste anyone who could see any good
In Sather offseason. This post was supposedly created to answer a special question from your batman buddy dedalus.
Seems you can’t stick to this OP either?

You were crying and whining about how sore you were in the last thread, because you were accused of lying, but essentially
That’s what you’re saying I’m doing by promoting: “a position that changes, it seems from day to day.

I thought it was from a month ago detective? Now I’m changing what I write every day? Seems like character assignation so
That you can continue to persecute anyone who doesn't want to stew in the misery you and others have created for yourself as a
Fan of this team?

T.

I've long maintained my opinion of Sather. Like you, I think he's been an utter failure. Like you, I think he perpetuates utter directionlessness. Like you, I think he's trying to convince people that he's rebuilidng on the fly to cast himself in a better light. Funny, isn't it, that we share so many opinions yet you still feel persecuted?

Shadowtron is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 04:52 PM
  #89
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
I've long maintained my opinion of Sather. Like you, I think he's been an utter failure. Like you, I think he perpetuates utter directionlessness. Like you, I think he's trying to convince people that he's rebuilidng on the fly to cast himself in a better light. Funny, isn't it, that we share so many opinions yet you still feel persecuted?
This bugs me. It bugs because you're essentially calling me a liar while at the same time drawing on assumptions to support your claim.

NikC is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 05:09 PM
  #90
OldStanley
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 103
vCash: 500
Fletch,

I agree he was put into a less than advantageous situation at the start of his tenure, but even the moves which were made at that point until today can be construed as marketing based moves.

Bringing in big name, or at least players who's names were known among those who even followed hockey casually, in order to sell those names to the sponsors and to an extent the fans works.

It give the marketers the tools to sell the team to the sponsors and fans. Imagine if you will a marketing agent for the Rangers trying to coerce a sponsor into spending their advertising dollars on the team by telling them how great is was that the team was rebuilding through youth. It makes that persons job much easier to say "hey we got so and so named player and the team should be much improved this year."

As a recent example the Devil's owner pretty much states that is his motive behind signing Kovalchuk.

edit: I should say part of his motive, although he does not mention that Kovalchuk will improve his team, he only mentions it has helped increase interest in the team.

While Vanderbeek was clear that he hoped a resolution would come quickly, the controversy has not hurt his team in terms of the box office since the Kovalchuk signing was originally announced.

"We've seen a spike in season tickets," Vanderbeek told the Daily News. "A lot of interest and a fair amount of buying. The good news for us was we were already above last year maybe by four percent, at least two weeks ago, but we've seen a spike in interest over the last week and a half."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=328762


Last edited by OldStanley: 08-25-2010 at 05:27 PM.
OldStanley is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 05:32 PM
  #91
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
This bugs me. It bugs because you're essentially calling me a liar while at the same time drawing on assumptions to support your claim.
Not sure how my quote applies in this case. I've neither called you a liar, nor have I made assumptions about your position on Sather. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding:

8/2/10:
Quote:
but he's had 2 very good offseasons imo...
8/25/10:
Quote:
So you see Iíve been maintaining an opinion of Satherís utter failure here in NY...

Shadowtron is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 05:48 PM
  #92
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,469
vCash: 500
I don't totally disagree about the marketing aspect, but of course, if you get a marquee name, typically you'd hope that name became a name because of his output on the ice, and if he continued that output on his new team, it should have a positive affect on that team. It goes a bit hand-in-hand. The Devils know fans will only take losing so long. Kovalchuk may put people in the seats today, but midway through the season sales of unsold tickets become more difficult and concessions dwindle with attendance and sales of advertising for next season lessen as a result of a losing team, which compounds if the contract is bad and it becomes tough to retain other key players and continue to maintain or build a team. I'd hope Sather would've known this. In those days in which the Rangers were losing, attendance was dropping and less people were watching. Sure, a ticket was sold in many instances, but they did lose out on ancillary revenues and perhaps advertising revenue and while MSG may've made money (or lost due to way accounting at MSG works).

Fletch is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 09:37 PM
  #93
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
My position has not changed from day to day and I reaffirm everything Iíve written in post #83
Of this thread. I have demonstrated from all my recent postings to be consistent with my opinions regarding Sather overall and recently.

The Impressive post was derailed significantly by posters such as yourself in order to lambaste anyone who could see any good
In Sather offseason. This post was supposedly created to answer a special question from your batman buddy dedalus.
Seems you canít stick to this OP either?

You were crying and whining about how sore you were in the last thread, because you were accused of lying, but essentially
Thatís what youíre saying Iím doing by promoting: ďa position that changes, it seems from day to day.

I thought it was from a month ago detective? Now Iím changing what I write every day? Seems like character assignation so
That you can continue to persecute anyone who doesn't want to stew in the misery you and others have created for yourself as a
Fan of this team?
Some of us have been straightforward from the outset about our opinions of Sather. Some of us have been anti, while others have been pro.

Your position(s) have you straddling every conceivable position, in my opinion. Why you have done this is unclear to me, but you cloak it all in that Sather stinks but he hasn't been as incredibly horrible this offseason than before, even though your reasoning seems to be that you can't single out one particular terrible offseason move, rather than he has helped the Rangers by________.

I'm still waiting for someone to name one NHL GM who has been worse than Sather during Sather's tenure. Yeah, I know that no one is going to touch it, but it remains the most glaring indictment of his regime.

chosen is offline  
Old
08-25-2010, 11:49 PM
  #94
BwayBshirt
Registered User
 
BwayBshirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: My NY State of Mind
Country: United States
Posts: 3,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to name one NHL GM who has been worse than Sather during Sather's tenure. Yeah, I know that no one is going to touch it, but it remains the most glaring indictment of his regime.
Waddell?

MacLean when he was with the BJ's?

Dave Taylor in L.A.?

JFJ in Toronto?

Or are you talking current?

Just sayin...

BwayBshirt is offline  
Old
08-26-2010, 06:14 AM
  #95
Garfinkel1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 3,446
vCash: 500
Marc Staal, Were art thou?

Seriously, I havn't heard anything about this in ages.

Garfinkel1 is offline  
Old
08-26-2010, 06:29 AM
  #96
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
Waddell?

MacLean when he was with the BJ's?

Dave Taylor in L.A.?

JFJ in Toronto?

Or are you talking current?

Just sayin...
Maybe I should amend to a GM that has survived the same amount of time as Sather that was worse. That said, let's take a look at Taylor (the first one I looked up):

Taylor drafted:

1. Kopitar
2. Cammallerri
3. Dustin Brown

That alone crushes Sather.

He also added:

Jokinen
Corvo
Frolov
Lilja
Visnovsky
Huet
Grebeshkov
Tambellini
Parse
and Quick

I also believe that the Kings are in better shape than the Rangers going forward, although I admit that it's not a definite.

With that record, Taylor could not survive, yet Sather dances on.

Edit: Just went through Waddell's history and he is a good comparison to Sather. Both have stunk up the joint overall, but even Waddell seems to be at least as good an evaluator of young talent, taking:

Kovalchuk
Heatley
Enstrom
Coburn
Exelby

Waddell is a good choice in this discussion, but he is no longer employed by Atlanta, in that capacity, Sather is still here. Let's say that Sather may only be tied for the worst GM around. We should keep him on, because hope springs eternal.


Last edited by chosen: 08-26-2010 at 06:44 AM.
chosen is offline  
Old
08-26-2010, 07:24 AM
  #97
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Not sure how my quote applies in this case. I've neither called you a liar, nor have I made assumptions about your position on Sather. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding:

8/2/10:


8/25/10:
Funny, isn't it, that we share so many opinions yet you still feel persecuted?

NikC is offline  
Old
08-26-2010, 07:27 AM
  #98
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Some of us have been straightforward from the outset about our opinions of Sather. Some of us have been anti, while others have been pro.

Your position(s) have you straddling every conceivable position, in my opinion. Why you have done this is unclear to me, but you cloak it all in that Sather stinks but he hasn't been as incredibly horrible this offseason than before, even though your reasoning seems to be that you can't single out one particular terrible offseason move, rather than he has helped the Rangers by________.

I'm still waiting for someone to name one NHL GM who has been worse than Sather during Sather's tenure. Yeah, I know that no one is going to touch it, but it remains the most glaring indictment of his regime.
every conceivalbe one? when there are only 2?

pretty clear by now, that you and others don't wish to see any point either myself or others who see some redeemable value in this offeason make.

why bother?

NikC is offline  
Old
08-26-2010, 07:40 AM
  #99
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,019
vCash: 500
Awards:
This has become a new place to continue the closed thread. The issue is no longer being discussed, semantics are. Enough.

__________________
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.