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Ken Holland (Red Wings GM) understands Gauthier's decision to trade Halak

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08-26-2010, 09:28 AM
  #1
shortcat1
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Ken Holland (Red Wings GM) understands Gauthier's decision to trade Halak

CKAC is a treasure trove of interesting info this morning.

In an article on CKAC's front page, Ken Holland is quoted as saying that he understand's Mr. Gauthier's situation in having traded Jaroslav Halak to the Blues.

Holland mentioned that he know's about Mr. Gauthier's ability to make difficult or unpopular decisions.

Holland also related a similar situation that he went through in 1997. At that time, Mike Vernon had goaltended the Red Wings to a Stanley Cup championship and, on top of that, Vernon had won the Conn Smythe trophy for the MVP of the series. Yet, at the end of that year, Holland traded away Vernon.

I don't remember how that transaction was seen at the time but it certainly does seem to have a similar flavour to it. This opinion also comes from a highly respected GM in the league.

As always, for those who can read French, here's the link:

http://www.ckac.com/hockey/nouvelles...han-29246.html

Ideas?


Last edited by shortcat1: 08-26-2010 at 09:36 AM.
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08-26-2010, 09:32 AM
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The original article is here :

http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/ho...gauthier.shtml

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08-26-2010, 09:34 AM
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GordieHoweHatTrick
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Mike Vernon had a great tenure in Detroit but he wasn't even a good starter when Detroit acquired him & when they traded him he was in his mid-30s. Sometimes I wonder whether or not GMs are really as stupid as some of the things they say or if they're just dumbing it down for their audiences..

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08-26-2010, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Mike Vernon had a great tenure in Detroit but he wasn't even a good starter when Detroit acquired him & when they traded him he was in his mid-30s. Sometimes I wonder whether or not GMs are really as stupid as some of the things they say or if they're just dumbing it down for their audiences..
That or maybe armchair Gms really do think they know better than the professionals who make the decisions.

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08-26-2010, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by shortcat1 View Post
CKAC is a trove of interesting info this morning.

In an article on CKAC's front page, Ken Holland is quoted as saying that he understand's Mr. Gauthier's situation in having traded Jaroslav Halak to the Blues.

Holland mentioned that he know's about Mr. Gauthier's ability to make difficult or unpopular decisions.

Holland also related a similar situation that he went through in 1997. At that time, Mike Vernon had goaltended the Red Wings to a Stanley Cup championship and, on top of that, Vernon had won the Conn Smythe trophy for the MVP of the series. Yet, at the end of that year, Holland traded away Vernon.

I don't remember how that transaction was seen at the time but it certainly does seem to have a similar flavour to it. This opinion also comes from a highly respected GM in the league.

As always, for those who can read French, here's the link:

http://www.ckac.com/hockey/nouvelles...han-29246.html

Ideas?
Don't see the comparison between Price-Halak and Vernon-Osgood. While we all believe in the potential, there's still a whole lot of question marks as far as Price is concerned especially in a pressured environment.

While prior to the 97 Cup, Osgood had started his career in the 93-94 season with already played 3 fine regular seasons with more than 40 starts per year and he already had 23 games played in the playoffs before sitting in that cup run with the Wings. There was way less question marks for Osgood than there is for Price.

As far as Gauthier making unpopular decisions, well not minding it is not understanding how the fans work here IF we don't win. Clearly, if we do, all will be forgotten. If Price fails, and if Halak succeeds, there won't be a day when people won't be asking for Gauthier's head. So fine, Gauthier likes to take unpopular decisions....but he'll have to live with it.

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08-26-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Mike Vernon had a great tenure in Detroit but he wasn't even a good starter when Detroit acquired him & when they traded him he was in his mid-30s. Sometimes I wonder whether or not GMs are really as stupid as some of the things they say or if they're just dumbing it down for their audiences..
I can see Holland's point. Actually, unlike Halak, Vernon actually won through 4 rounds to take the Cup. AND, he won the Conn Smythe trophy as top player in the playoffs in '97. 924 save % and 1.76 gaa

You can't equate trading a Conn Smythe winner with trading Halak? Think about it

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08-26-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Don't see the comparison between Price-Halak and Vernon-Osgood. While we all believe in the potential, there's still a whole lot of question marks as far as Price is concerned especially in a pressured environment.

While prior to the 97 Cup, Osgood had started his career in the 93-94 season with already played 3 fine regular seasons with more than 40 starts per year and he already had 23 games played in the playoffs before sitting in that cup run with the Wings. There was way less question marks for Osgood than there is for Price.

As far as Gauthier making unpopular decisions, well not minding it is not understanding how the fans work here IF we don't win. Clearly, if we do, all will be forgotten. If Price fails, and if Halak succeeds, there won't be a day when people won't be asking for Gauthier's head. So fine, Gauthier likes to take unpopular decisions....but he'll have to live with it.

You know what your post made me think Whitesnake. When people talk about Halak and Price post trade, they always talk about one failing and the other one prospering, could you imagine if they both fail lol...I wonder what the reactions would be.

Another thing that it made wonder is why does one have to fail and the other succeed? Why can't they just both do well with their respective clubs? It seems like everyone wants either one to fail at the expense of the other which is odd. I like both goalies and wish them well.

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08-26-2010, 09:44 AM
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I prefer a GM who stick to his plan even if the fans won't like it.


Imagine if Gauthier was to listen to fans....why not making us vote on trade proposal

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08-26-2010, 09:47 AM
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[QUOTE=Koseegin;27535292]You know what your post made me think Whitesnake. When people talk about Halak and Price post trade, they always talk about one failing and the other one prospering, could you imagine if they both fail lol...I wonder what the reactions would be.

Another thing that it made wonder is why does one have to fail and the other succeed? Why can't they just both do well with their respective clubs? It seems like everyone wants either one to fail at the expense of the other which is odd. I like both goalies and wish them well.[/QUOTE]

Because more often than not, one will take sides, either price or halak. Then it becomes the inevitable ''i told you so'' Everyone wants to be 'right' all the time, so one must fail in order for the individual to be proven 'right'.

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08-26-2010, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Mike Vernon had a great tenure in Detroit but he wasn't even a good starter when Detroit acquired him & when they traded him he was in his mid-30s. Sometimes I wonder whether or not GMs are really as stupid as some of the things they say or if they're just dumbing it down for their audiences..
Holland was only giving the example of a popular player he had to trade. He didn't say Halak situation was the same as Vernon's.

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08-26-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
That or maybe armchair Gms really do think they know better than the professionals who make the decisions.
Or I just think that it's stupid to compare Detroit trading Mike Vernon to Montreal trading Jaroslav Halak. Vernon was acquired to back-up Osgood (playoff experience + SC ring) & just happen to steal the starting job during the '97 playoffs. He played like a man possessed. He was also 34 when he got traded. In the end, Detroit made the right move; they went with Osgood, who ended up being better than Vernon. Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.

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08-26-2010, 09:50 AM
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That or maybe armchair Gms really do think they know better than the professionals who make the decisions.
Also possible that as professionnals you are, maybe you are not totally aware of what's going in every team of the league. Except Burke, rarely will you see and hear a GM bashing another one. So to me, Holland was just polite and we don't know they could be best of friends.

In the same statement, Holland understands Gauthier's decision....and then says that (on the cyberpresse article)
Quote:
Selon Holland, le jeune gardien du Canadien est capable de composer avec cette pression. «Il n'aura pas le choix, ça fait partie du jeu. Si on ne peut pas composer avec la pression dans la Ligue nationale, c'est peut-être parce qu'on ne fait pas le bon métier. Quand on est dans cette ligue, c'est parce qu'on est capable de gérer la pression.»
Translation: About the pressure, Holland says that Price won't have the choice to compose with it. If we can't deal with pressure, it might be because we're not doing the right job. When you are in this league, it means that you are able to deal with pressure.

So....do we know a whole lot of NHL or any professionnal sports athletes that compose with pressure better than others? And then, there's Columbus pressure.....Wings pressure....and Habs pressure. And we're talking about the goalie position....in Montreal. This is NOT pressure. This is beyond that. So while Holland believes in Price's talent, like we all do, he mentions that Price surely is able to deal with it since he's in the league....We'll see soon if that's enough.

As far as that statement "Professionnals know more than amateurs"....clearly should be true. Doesn't refrain them for being fired at least every 2-3 years.....

I respect Holland for what he did for his team. Clearly best GM of the league for a very very long time. But to me, his statement is more about a fellow GM "helping" another GM who's criticized a lot than a real acknowledgment of what's going, what's our status and all. Yes, salary cap is an issue. Of course. I would have made other sacrifices to keep both goalies at least till the deadline to know FOR SURE who I'd put my faith on for the next 10-15 years.

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08-26-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Another thing that it made wonder is why does one have to fail and the other succeed? Why can't they just both do well with their respective clubs? It seems like everyone wants either one to fail at the expense of the other which is odd. I like both goalies and wish them well.
People don't want to understand, people want to be right. They don't want to understand the dilemma PG faced, nor acknowledge the benefits and the drawbacks of any decision that could have been made regarding our goalies. They want to be right. In other words, they have their little uneducated opinion, and now the only thing of any importance is for their little uneducated opinion to be validated. It's purely a ego thing.

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08-26-2010, 09:53 AM
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I can see Holland's point. Actually, unlike Halak, Vernon actually won through 4 rounds to take the Cup. AND, he won the Conn Smythe trophy as top player in the playoffs in '97. 924 save % and 1.76 gaa

You can't equate trading a Conn Smythe winner with trading Halak? Think about it
In that sense of the statement, yes, I can equate trading a Conn Smythe winner with trading Halak. That's a personal equation, but if the point of the article is to butter Montreal fans into thinking it was a good idea to trade Halak because Detroit traded Vernon and were fine thereafter, then I don't agree

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08-26-2010, 09:53 AM
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Holland being fraternal (is that a word?).

He seems that type. Certainly not a Burke type...

He wouldn't comment on that situation unless someone asked for his take (specifically). So it is just a measured and safe answer to a question.

Holland doesn't want to talk about the Habs. He's got better things to do. He just gives an answer that assures he won't catch any heat and be on OTR or some hokus pokus talk radio show.

Smart guy.

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08-26-2010, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Don't see the comparison between Price-Halak and Vernon-Osgood. While we all believe in the potential, there's still a whole lot of question marks as far as Price is concerned especially in a pressured environment.

While prior to the 97 Cup, Osgood had started his career in the 93-94 season with already played 3 fine regular seasons with more than 40 starts per year and he already had 23 games played in the playoffs before sitting in that cup run with the Wings. There was way less question marks for Osgood than there is for Price.

As far as Gauthier making unpopular decisions, well not minding it is not understanding how the fans work here IF we don't win. Clearly, if we do, all will be forgotten. If Price fails, and if Halak succeeds, there won't be a day when people won't be asking for Gauthier's head. So fine, Gauthier likes to take unpopular decisions....but he'll have to live with it.
Willing to make unpopular decisions and liking to make unpopular decisions aren't the same thing. Halak had become #1 but his status wasn't engraved in stone for the ages. There was at least a reasonable chance that Price would become #1 some time in the upcoming season. Obviously, keeping both Halak and Price was not feasible. Gauthier must have thought long and hard about trading Halak. He had to consider the needs, budget, and cap space of his team, the potential of both goaltenders, and the intentions of Halak and his agent. Perhaps he didn't trust the agent and had a feeling that Halak might be fickle. It's likely Halak and his agent demanded that Price be traded as a condition for Halak's staying because of the uncertainty over who would be #1.

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08-26-2010, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
In that sense of the statement, yes, I can equate trading a Conn Smythe winner with trading Halak. That's a personal equation, but if the point of the article is to butter Montreal fans into thinking it was a good idea to trade Halak because Detroit traded Vernon and were fine thereafter, then I don't agree
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that in some circumstances, trading a local hero is the right thing to do in professional sports. That's all. He's just saying that the whole "but Halak was our best player in the playoffs" cannot be the only argument, and that the decision cannot be made only over that.

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08-26-2010, 09:58 AM
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You know what your post made me think Whitesnake. When people talk about Halak and Price post trade, they always talk about one failing and the other one prospering, could you imagine if they both fail lol...I wonder what the reactions would be.

Another thing that it made wonder is why does one have to fail and the other succeed? Why can't they just both do well with their respective clubs? It seems like everyone wants either one to fail at the expense of the other which is odd. I like both goalies and wish them well.
I was never too present in the insane Halak vs Price debate. I was never in a camp or another. But I know now that with what happened with Halak in the playoffs, unless Price does incredibly well, there will be an intense amount of pressure on everybody here. Honestly, I don't care what Halak does in St-Louis. I mean, I'm not a St-Louis fan, why would I care? Clearly if both guys do well, so be it. What I was talking about is the madness that will happen if Price ends up failing and if Halak does incredible well. If people thought we had distractions before, you had seen nothing yet. The only thing saving the Habs right now is the dissapearrance of 2 night shows 'cause if they'd still be there, it would have been borderline disgraceful. If Price does well and so is Halak, well immediately there wouldn't be such type of remarks for sure. Yet some comparisons will still be happening....The only way we'd be free of distractions is if Price does great and Halak fails, that's the only way we'll be able to move on.

But I agree, I personnally hope they do fine. Yet, my team are the Habs so as nice as Halak seems to be, if he fails, I won't lose sleep but will acknowledge that in the end, Gauthier took the right decision.

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08-26-2010, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Don't see the comparison between Price-Halak and Vernon-Osgood. While we all believe in the potential, there's still a whole lot of question marks as far as Price is concerned especially in a pressured environment.

While prior to the 97 Cup, Osgood had started his career in the 93-94 season with already played 3 fine regular seasons with more than 40 starts per year and he already had 23 games played in the playoffs before sitting in that cup run with the Wings. There was way less question marks for Osgood than there is for Price.

As far as Gauthier making unpopular decisions, well not minding it is not understanding how the fans work here IF we don't win. Clearly, if we do, all will be forgotten. If Price fails, and if Halak succeeds, there won't be a day when people won't be asking for Gauthier's head. So fine, Gauthier likes to take unpopular decisions....but he'll have to live with it.
Price has not shown any more issues with Montreal than Fleury did in Pittsburgh or other goalies did elswhere at the same age.

I don't see his inconsistency as a pressure issue, to me it's adevelopmental thing that all goalies go through. Very few goalies look like veterans at 21 or 22. Most mature around 24-25-26, some even later.

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08-26-2010, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Willing to make unpopular decisions and liking to make unpopular decisions aren't the same thing. Halak had become #1 but his status wasn't engraved in stone for the ages. There was at least a reasonable chance that Price would become #1 some time in the upcoming season. Obviously, keeping both Halak and Price was not feasible. Gauthier must have thought long and hard about trading Halak. He had to consider the needs, budget, and cap space of his team, the potential of both goaltenders, and the intentions of Halak and his agent. Perhaps he didn't trust the agent and had a feeling that Halak might be fickle. It's likely Halak and his agent demanded that Price be traded as a condition for Halak's staying because of the uncertainty over who would be #1.
Gauthier didn't care about Halak's or his agent intentions. He mentioned it clearly in an interview at the question "Did you know what he was asking for" Gauthier said that he didn't need to ask him, that he knew what he'd ask for anyway.

Yes, there's a lot of things to consider. Halak did end up getting a 3.75 cap hit. So other decisions would have needed to be made. Trying to make other moves. Dealing Price instead so that the return would have been Eller-Schultz type of players and maybe more.

So yes, our opinions have to be based on what transpires and what we know. 'Cause if we'd wait to get some news from this organization, might as well close this board....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that in some circumstances, trading a local hero is the right thing to do in professional sports. That's all. He's just saying that the whole "but Halak was our best player in the playoffs" cannot be the only argument, and that the decision cannot be made only over that.
And clearly, being a Hero during the playoffs shouldn't be the sole question. But when the rest of your questions are: Can the other kid do it? Are people in Montreal, media and such crazy enough to NOT let the kid develop properly (and you know that the answer to that question is YES), so not only you deal a guy immensely popular....you also deal a guy who seems pretty good......for a guy who "might" not be just as good because of the stupid pressure on him. So it's not only about "Halak My playoffs hero".

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08-26-2010, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Don't see the comparison between Price-Halak and Vernon-Osgood. While we all believe in the potential, there's still a whole lot of question marks as far as Price is concerned especially in a pressured environment.

While prior to the 97 Cup, Osgood had started his career in the 93-94 season with already played 3 fine regular seasons with more than 40 starts per year and he already had 23 games played in the playoffs before sitting in that cup run with the Wings. There was way less question marks for Osgood than there is for Price.

As far as Gauthier making unpopular decisions, well not minding it is not understanding how the fans work here IF we don't win. Clearly, if we do, all will be forgotten. If Price fails, and if Halak succeeds, there won't be a day when people won't be asking for Gauthier's head. So fine, Gauthier likes to take unpopular decisions....but he'll have to live with it.
music to my hears. I think you presented the situation pretty well. As for gauthier, we can't just discredit anyone who objected his move, and then turn around and hail everyone who supported it. truth his, not a bloody human being knows where both goalies will be in 5 years, and that, was the very essence of that trade. One big juicy gamble.


halak today < price potential performances , says pierre gauthier. And like you said, he needs to be accountable for that.

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08-26-2010, 10:10 AM
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In that sense of the statement, yes, I can equate trading a Conn Smythe winner with trading Halak. That's a personal equation, but if the point of the article is to butter Montreal fans into thinking it was a good idea to trade Halak because Detroit traded Vernon and were fine thereafter, then I don't agree
You are making the mistake of evaluating the actual deal. Put yourself in the position of Wings fan in 97. First Cup win since 1955. First thing the GM does is trade the MVP.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but,it's not the trade that is at issue, it is the response of the fans. Neither trade was popular at the time. How it played out afterward is essentially irrelevant to the point Holland is trying to make. It's not the substance of the trade. It's how the fans received it at the time

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08-26-2010, 10:12 AM
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Imagine if Gauthier was to listen to fans....why not making us vote on trade proposal
i let this part for the quebecor's nordiques
$,50 per vote

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08-26-2010, 10:12 AM
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Price has not shown any more issues with Montreal than Fleury did in Pittsburgh or other goalies did elswhere at the same age.

I don't see his inconsistency as a pressure issue, to me it's adevelopmental thing that all goalies go through. Very few goalies look like veterans at 21 or 22. Most mature around 24-25-26, some even later.
Maybe one day, just one day, people will understand that I'M NOT saying Price will not end up a great goalie. Geez, the day this guy is traded if ever, he becomes a HOF material. So it's not about him succeeding or not at a young age. It's NOT about him being an average, a good or a great goalie.

IT HAS EVERYTHING to do with our environment, Montreal (his fans and media) permitting him to develop the way a young goalie should.

Do you seriously believe that this city will wait till he's 25-26 to show something great? Most every sane cities would. Not here. That's my sole and only point. Nothing to with the kid. Everything to do with how he was brought in AND the overall intelligence of the masses....

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08-26-2010, 10:13 AM
  #25
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So yes, our opinions have to be based on what transpires and what we know. 'Cause if we'd wait to get some news from this organization, might as well close this board....
It's all fine and fun to have opinions, even in the absence of most of the relevant information. That's not the issue.

The issue is when people hype their opinion to no end, argument it like their life depends of it, completely refuse to even consider the opposition's arguments, and freaks out because the position they supported fanatically for 6 months isn't the one retained by the organization.

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