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Ken Holland (Red Wings GM) understands Gauthier's decision to trade Halak

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Old
08-26-2010, 10:19 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
You are making the mistake of evaluating the actual deal. Put yourself in the position of Wings fan in 97. First Cup win since 1955. First thing the GM does is trade the MVP.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but,it's not the trade that is at issue, it is the response of the fans. Neither trade was popular at the time. How it played out afterward is essentially irrelevant to the point Holland is trying to make. It's not the substance of the trade. It's how the fans received it at the time
But they ended up winning the cup.....some fans believed, believes etc., that Halak was the center piece to get there. Some now believes in a setback. Yes, it's the response of the fans, though do some people know exactly how was the fans response to the trade? What was it? I don't think that how it played afterward was irrelevant 'cause in the end, if it would not have played that well, people would have been able to say that "We disagree with you at the time AND WE WERE RIGHT". Now Holland has a record to say to everyone that we should just never discuss his moves 'cause they almost all end up great ones and he has the record to prove it.

Another thing going for Holland....Vernon was 35 years old. He didn't know at the time, but there was 6 years left to Mike's career. So you could actually explain the move more by saying that one might have been towards the end of his career, while we had a younger one, who had already proved his worth that had way more years ahead of him.

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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
It's all fine and fun to have opinions, even in the absence of most of the relevant information. That's not the issue.

The issue is when people hype their opinion to no end, argument it like their life depends of it, completely refuse to even consider the opposition's arguments, and freaks out because the position they supported fanatically for 6 months isn't the one retained by the organization.
So I guess you're suggesting that's what I'm doing. Sorry if I have an opinion AND if in the end I'm RESPONDING to the ones who are replying to me. I'm pretty sure that in most of my posts, I'm pretty calm and come with an argumentation that while you might not agree with isn't filled with "**** you all" or "he's a hamburger eater anyway" or "Whatever...".

I like to discuss and also keeps repeating that I respect everybody's opinion unless you are not respecting mine. But if there's a rule that states how many replies we should write, tell me and I'll adjust.

I really really really would like to see where I don't consider the opposition argument. And funnily enough, you are talking about a debate I deliberately chose to ignore while having 1 opinoin on it...."Didn't like the way Price was brought it, and find it's unfair to him for the rest of his career in Montreal 'cause of the pressure". I pretty much talked about it 5 times during this whole debate aside from that thread.

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08-26-2010, 10:25 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that in some circumstances, trading a local hero is the right thing to do in professional sports. That's all. He's just saying that the whole "but Halak was our best player in the playoffs" cannot be the only argument, and that the decision cannot be made only over that.
my appreciation of halak revolves around this question;

when has halak let us down ? The answer is never.

huet injury, trip out west 2 years ago, this year's season, this year's playoffs .... those were his only opportunities to shine, and he did. Can you really blame fans like me to be curious about where the halak experience would go ? He is lightyears ahead of price between the hears. Just take price unsportsmanlike penalties against washington as a good enough example of something halak wouldn't do.

I see it the other way around, and we are thus meant to disagree ; price has potential, but it cannot be the only argument. anymore. the organisation cheated time and time again in his favour, its time for someone to answer the call ; price plays well, or Molson has to start a riot in the front office. and thats just common sense.


Last edited by THE HOFF: 08-26-2010 at 10:35 AM.
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08-26-2010, 10:26 AM
  #28
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Even if Carey Price doesn't pan out it's not like we have to live with it forever. Either we do something like make a trade for Vokoun at the trade deadline or in the next off-season we trade for a young prospect on a team that has 3 or 4 decent ones.

It won't linger on for more than a year anyways, goalies aren't worth that much on the trade market and there seems to be a half dozen right now that are worth pretty much nothing.

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08-26-2010, 10:29 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Mike Vernon had a great tenure in Detroit but he wasn't even a good starter when Detroit acquired him & when they traded him he was in his mid-30s. Sometimes I wonder whether or not GMs are really as stupid as some of the things they say or if they're just dumbing it down for their audiences..
He also helped lead the Flames to two finals, winning one. Vernon had accomplished way more, but at the same time, he was close to the end.

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08-26-2010, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Or I just think that it's stupid to compare Detroit trading Mike Vernon to Montreal trading Jaroslav Halak. Vernon was acquired to back-up Osgood (playoff experience + SC ring) & just happen to steal the starting job during the '97 playoffs. He played like a man possessed. He was also 34 when he got traded. In the end, Detroit made the right move; they went with Osgood, who ended up being better than Vernon. Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
I was hoping you could provide me the winning 649 numbers for the weekends draw....

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08-26-2010, 10:33 AM
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Holland is a bum... Halak is God...

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08-26-2010, 10:34 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
how the hell do you know?

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08-26-2010, 10:36 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
my appreciation of halak revolves around this question;

when has halak let us down ? The answer is never.

huet injury, trip out west 2 years ago, this year's season, this year's playoffs .... those were his only opportunities to shine, and he did. Can you really blame fans like me to be curious about where the halak experience would go ? He is lightyears away from price between the hears. Just take price unsportsmanlike penalties against washington as a good enough example of something halak wouldn't do.

I see it the other way around, and we are thus meant to disagree ; price has potential, but it cannot be the only argument. anymore. the organisation cheated time and time again in his favour, its time for someone to answer the call ; price plays well, or Molson has to start a riot in the front office. and thats just common sense.
Halak has rarely been in a position of high expectations where he could let anybody down.

Price on the other hand was rushed to the NHL at 20 and they traded Huet to quickly make him the #1 before he was ready. Due to this, being drafted #5 overall, the Calder cup and WJHC gold, expectations were put very high for him.

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08-26-2010, 10:38 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
Toronto essentially traded away Seguin for kessel. Seguin will be miles ahead of Kessel for the next 8-10 years and toronto will be hurting for it. See what i did?

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08-26-2010, 10:39 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So I guess you're suggesting that's what I'm doing. Sorry if I have an opinion AND if in the end I'm RESPONDING to the ones who are replying to me. I'm pretty sure that in most of my posts, I'm pretty calm and come with an argumentation that while you might not agree with isn't filled with "**** you all" or "he's a hamburger eater anyway" or "Whatever...".

I like to discuss and also keeps repeating that I respect everybody's opinion unless you are not respecting mine. But if there's a rule that states how many replies we should write, tell me and I'll adjust.

I really really really would like to see where I don't consider the opposition argument. And funnily enough, you are talking about a debate I deliberately chose to ignore while having 1 opinoin on it...."Didn't like the way Price was brought it, and find it's unfair to him for the rest of his career in Montreal 'cause of the pressure". I pretty much talked about it 5 times during this whole debate aside from that thread.
I don't get the whole argument the Halak is 'proven'. Obviously, what he did in the playoff was nothing short of exceptional, as were some of his past performances.

But to me, 'proven' (in the context of a #1 goalie) is a goalie who has put together at least a couple seasons in a row as a solid #1. Miller, Brodeur, Luongo, Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, Fleury - these a 'proven' goalies.

A goalie who was absolutely brilliant last year, but whose two busiest regular seasons have been 45 and 34 games, is not 'proven' IMO.

I would say that if has a solid year this year, given that he was a number 1 goalie for some of this past season and the entire playoffs, I'll start thinking of him as 'proven'.

Remember, at this point he's kind of been an underdog for most of the time he's been in the NHL, a role where expectations and pressure are much lower. Now he's clearly labeled as a #1 guy; let's see if he can succeed under those expectations before we call him 'proven'.

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08-26-2010, 10:39 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
my appreciation of halak revolves around this question;

when has halak let us down ? The answer is never.

huet injury, trip out west 2 years ago, this year's season, this year's playoffs .... those were his only opportunities to shine, and he did. Can you really blame fans like me to be curious about where the halak experience would go ? He is lightyears away from price between the hears. Just take price unsportsmanlike penalties against washington as a good enough example of something halak wouldn't do.

I see it the other way around, and we are thus meant to disagree ; price has potential, but it cannot be the only argument. anymore. the organisation cheated time and time again in his favour, its time for someone to answer the call ; price plays well, or Molson has to start a riot in the front office. and thats just common sense.
I don't necessarily disagree. But Halak is also the guy who reportedly hated dealing with the habs media and the hype surrounding the starting goalie position in Montreal, and who asked two times in the last year to be traded.

And Price is the goalie who has accomplished more for his age than any other goalie in the history of the sport except maybe half a dozen.

I'm not blaming fans for missing Halak - I will miss Halak. I totally believe he's heading for a Vokoun type of career. In fact, I would probably have kept him over Price, assuming I can get a good return for him. But I blame the insane fans who trust themselves way too much to the point of asking for PG head just because he didn't make the decision they would have made, even when he had access to 10000 times more information than they had access to before making his decision. I personally don't have this delusion.

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08-26-2010, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
Well that settles it then.

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08-26-2010, 10:43 AM
  #38
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Jaroslav Halak no longer plays for the Canadiens.

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08-26-2010, 10:44 AM
  #39
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Halak vs Price has not been discussed enough...


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08-26-2010, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
But they ended up winning the cup.....some fans believed, believes etc., that Halak was the center piece to get there. Some now believes in a setback. Yes, it's the response of the fans, though do some people know exactly how was the fans response to the trade? What was it? I don't think that how it played afterward was irrelevant 'cause in the end, if it would not have played that well, people would have been able to say that "We disagree with you at the time AND WE WERE RIGHT". Now Holland has a record to say to everyone that we should just never discuss his moves 'cause they almost all end up great ones and he has the record to prove it.

Another thing going for Holland....Vernon was 35 years old. He didn't know at the time, but there was 6 years left to Mike's career. So you could actually explain the move more by saying that one might have been towards the end of his career, while we had a younger one, who had already proved his worth that had way more years ahead of him.
It all sounds great except, we know how the Vernon career played out NOW. We have yet to see what Halak will do

Again at the risk of repeating myself, I think Holland's point is how the trades were received by fans at the time. It's about the fact they were traded. Not whether Halak = Vernon in value at the time of the deal

From the standpoint of the trades. Both goalies were dealt at their highest possible trade value at that time. Neither deal was popular with many fans. That is the sum of what Holland was saying as I read it

Comparing the actual deals is actually beside the point

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08-26-2010, 10:51 AM
  #41
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Well that settles it then.
It's a personal opinion. That's what I believe; Halak will be better than Carey Price. I wish the Canadiens nothing but the best. I was rooting for them & watched every playoff game this past year with all of my French Canadian friends. Halak made the Habs better, the Habs didn't make him better. On the other hand, I believe the honeymoon with Carey Price is over. He's a very skilled goalie but will remain inconsistent and may not ever reach his full potential in Montreal. I'm not basing this off of simple notions I have, I'm basing this off of what I've seen from the Montreal goaltenders the past 2 years.

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08-26-2010, 11:09 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ScopeHockey View Post
I don't get the whole argument the Halak is 'proven'. Obviously, what he did in the playoff was nothing short of exceptional, as were some of his past performances.

But to me, 'proven' (in the context of a #1 goalie) is a goalie who has put together at least a couple seasons in a row as a solid #1. Miller, Brodeur, Luongo, Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, Fleury - these a 'proven' goalies.

A goalie who was absolutely brilliant last year, but whose two busiest regular seasons have been 45 and 34 games, is not 'proven' IMO.

I would say that if has a solid year this year, given that he was a number 1 goalie for some of this past season and the entire playoffs, I'll start thinking of him as 'proven'.

Remember, at this point he's kind of been an underdog for most of the time he's been in the NHL, a role where expectations and pressure are much lower. Now he's clearly labeled as a #1 guy; let's see if he can succeed under those expectations before we call him 'proven'.
Not sure where I used proven at least not in the reply you mentioned. I also mentioned in an earlier debate that this will be the main goal for Halak. Being the clear #1. But while it is a pressure to work with, he'll have the advantage of being in a fine market but not Montreal anyway.

For sure there are question marks on Halak as well. Reason why in general, I would have preferred to keep both goalies at till the deadline to see which one we'd go with.

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08-26-2010, 11:12 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
It's a personal opinion. That's what I believe; Halak will be better than Carey Price. I wish the Canadiens nothing but the best. I was rooting for them & watched every playoff game this past year with all of my French Canadian friends. Halak made the Habs better, the Habs didn't make him better. On the other hand, I believe the honeymoon with Carey Price is over. He's a very skilled goalie but will remain inconsistent and may not ever reach his full potential in Montreal. I'm not basing this off of simple notions I have, I'm basing this off of what I've seen from the Montreal goaltenders the past 2 years.
those look like simple notions to me.

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08-26-2010, 11:12 AM
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It all sounds great except, we know how the Vernon career played out NOW. We have yet to see what Halak will do

Again at the risk of repeating myself, I think Holland's point is how the trades were received by fans at the time. It's about the fact they were traded. Not whether Halak = Vernon in value at the time of the deal

From the standpoint of the trades. Both goalies were dealt at their highest possible trade value at that time. Neither deal was popular with many fans. That is the sum of what Holland was saying as I read it

Comparing the actual deals is actually beside the point
Though we still don't know how it was really received by the Wings, for sure that it probably wasn't popular. But again, I'd like to know how it was receive 'cause the fans knew Osgood already and knew what he was capable of doing.

But if is point was to demonstrate that sometimes GM's make unpopular decisions, fine. Gainey let Koivu and Kovalev go. Traded Lats. Unpopular decisions. And I believe every GM takes those. Point taken.

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08-26-2010, 11:14 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Gauthier didn't care about Halak's or his agent intentions. He mentioned it clearly in an interview at the question "Did you know what he was asking for" Gauthier said that he didn't need to ask him, that he knew what he'd ask for anyway.

Yes, there's a lot of things to consider. Halak did end up getting a 3.75 cap hit. So other decisions would have needed to be made. Trying to make other moves. Dealing Price instead so that the return would have been Eller-Schultz type of players and maybe more.

So yes, our opinions have to be based on what transpires and what we know. 'Cause if we'd wait to get some news from this organization, might as well close this board....
Trading Price for an established two top lines forward would had make more sense to answer the actual Habs needs. Gauthier knew what to expect hockey wise from Halak. We don't know really yet what Price can provide under pressure situations. Eller might be a very good player. But are they gonna have him play on the third line until Gomez is gone ? Halak is then way more precious as an asset.

A reversal of draft picks in the 1st round with St-Louis would had been welcomed too (instead of Schultz), and maybe the Habs would had been able to keep their second-round pick instead of loosing it to draft Tinordi. They had already lost one in the Moore's trade. Second-round picks are precious: look at Subban !

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08-26-2010, 11:17 AM
  #46
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I never had a problem with the actual decision - it's the attitude of posters here that somehow think we are better in goal currently.

Can Price be better? Yes. Is he now - no.

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08-26-2010, 11:18 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
Wow. Just freaking wow.

Miles ahead for the next 8-10 years.... wow.

Do you realize that Halak has won exactly 4 more games then Price in his playoff career?

I like Halak and all, but he too has never played a full season in the NHL as a#1. Hey very well MAY become a #1 goalie, and that is what St-Louis is betting on, but you have already given him a Vezina it seems.

Have you re-watched any games from the 2008-9 season with Price in nets? Watch them with the RDS broadcast play by play. Really watch Price play. Watch what he can do when the pressure is off and he can just play.

His next step is to be able to play under the MTL pressure, and be consistent, and become a real #1. If not, yes, he will be a failure.

Price is not a home run, slam dunk winner at the moment. But to say that Halak is so far ahead, and will remain so if just fanboy-ism.

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08-26-2010, 11:19 AM
  #48
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I never had a problem with the actual decision - it's the attitude of posters here that somehow think we are better in goal currently.

Can Price be better? Yes. Is he now - no.
The trade in itself is actually a fair trade indeed, especially with what I think of Eller....it's a great trade.

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08-26-2010, 11:21 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
The trade in itself is actually a fair trade indeed, especially with what I think of Eller....it's a great trade. But that was never the point.
See that's a huge jump. A "great" trade? Really? Eller is totally unproven. It can be a good trade, but that is yet to be seen...

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08-26-2010, 11:24 AM
  #50
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Not to derail the thread, but how many people have backed Price > Halak in the last 6 months?

Scotty Bowman
Patrick Roy
Peter Holland
Paul Holmgren
Cedrick Desjardins
Majority of pro scouts in one of Matthias Brunets articles IIRC

I know I am missing some, feel free to add them.

Who has backed Halak > Price?

HF
JC Lajoie
Le Baron
Richard Labbé

Feel free to add I know I am missing a lot.


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