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Ken Holland (Red Wings GM) understands Gauthier's decision to trade Halak

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Old
08-26-2010, 11:29 AM
  #51
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
See that's a huge jump. A "great" trade? Really? Eller is totally unproven. It can be a good trade, but that is yet to be seen...
It does remain my opinion based on how I saw Eller at the draft and his progression since then. Great 'cause it finally gives us a big talented C with talent that because of their needs, St-L was sad to see leave. Every trade involving kids are Unproven. So yes it remains to be confirmed but I believe it will.

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08-26-2010, 11:29 AM
  #52
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weird.
i actully heard Roy said hes not sure he would have been able in his prime to goal as halak did in the 2 first rounds..

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Old
08-26-2010, 11:29 AM
  #53
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These threads are so unproductive. Price is a God to some and a bum to others...Unfortunately those are the sides who have the largest bark here. Those who aren't on either side and who can think independently get told they're "wrong" by either the bashers or the stans.

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08-26-2010, 11:30 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by fawktop View Post
weird.
i actully heard Roy said hes not sure he would have been able in his prime to goal as halak did in the 2 first rounds..
what does he know?

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Originally Posted by Sardo View Post
Not to derail the thread, but how many people have backed Price > Halak in the last 6 months?

Scotty Bowman
Patrick Roy
Peter Holland
Paul Holmgren
Cedrick Desjardins
Majority of pro scouts in one of Matthias Brunets articles IIRC

I know I am missing some, feel free to add them.

Who has backed Halak > Price?

HF
JC Lajoie
Le Baron
Richard Labbé

Feel free to add I know I am missing a lot.

This means absolutely nothing. You've gotta have a stronger argument than this.

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08-26-2010, 11:32 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Sardo View Post
Not to derail the thread, but how many people have backed Price > Halak in the last 6 months?

Scotty Bowman
Patrick Roy
Peter Holland
Paul Holmgren
Cedrick Desjardins
Majority of pro scouts in one of Matthias Brunets articles IIRC

I know I am missing some, feel free to add them.

Who has backed Halak > Price?

HF
JC Lajoie
Le Baron
Richard Labbé

Feel free to add I know I am missing a lot.

People are backing, with reason, Price's talent and potential over Halak but all that without disrespecting Jaro. Now, nobody analyzed how both goalies would be able to deal with the pressure to be real 1 in Montreal 'cause that's something we don't know for sure and can only guess....

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08-26-2010, 11:34 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
This means absolutely nothing. You've gotta have a stronger argument than this.
Not arguing anything, I was never a poster in any price vs halak thread. I would've traded either, but had a preference long term for Carey.

Just pointing out that hockey legends, GM's, people that get paid to assess hockey talent and even the future habs #1 himself gave a vote of confidence to Price, and that maybe the guys with big mouths can pipe down and wait and see and stop being so damn emotional.

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Old
08-26-2010, 11:49 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It does remain my opinion based on how I saw Eller at the draft and his progression since then. Great 'cause it finally gives us a big talented C with talent that because of their needs, St-L was sad to see leave. Every trade involving kids are Unproven. So yes it remains to be confirmed but I believe it will.
people may not 'trust' what eller may be / become but the fact remains he was ranked as the blues best forward prospect on a team with a very deep prospect pool

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08-26-2010, 11:50 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Or I just think that it's stupid to compare Detroit trading Mike Vernon to Montreal trading Jaroslav Halak. Vernon was acquired to back-up Osgood (playoff experience + SC ring) & just happen to steal the starting job during the '97 playoffs. He played like a man possessed. He was also 34 when he got traded. In the end, Detroit made the right move; they went with Osgood, who ended up being better than Vernon. Montreal, on the other hand, traded away Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
So since you can see into the future

What are the winning 6/49 numbers for the next month?

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Old
08-26-2010, 11:50 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
These threads are so unproductive. Price is a God to some and a bum to others...Unfortunately those are the sides who have the largest bark here. Those who aren't on either side and who can think independently get told they're "wrong" by either the bashers or the stans.
price just turned 23 for ****'s sake. people need to relax. if this guy was on any other team, anyone with half a brain would be preaching patience

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Old
08-26-2010, 11:55 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
So since you can see into the future

What are the winning 6/49 numbers for the next month?
6, 7, 24, 31, 33, 38

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:11 PM
  #61
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was hoping we had all moved on

let the season play itself out.

I will never understand some fans mentality. Before the playoffs people wanted to trade Halak. He plays 2 great series and now he is the martyr.

IMO both goalies have proven the same amount in the NHLand both have potential to be great starters. One is younger and cheaper.

end/

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:18 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure where I used proven at least not in the reply you mentioned. I also mentioned in an earlier debate that this will be the main goal for Halak. Being the clear #1. But while it is a pressure to work with, he'll have the advantage of being in a fine market but not Montreal anyway.

For sure there are question marks on Halak as well. Reason why in general, I would have preferred to keep both goalies at till the deadline to see which one we'd go with.
Sorry about that, I thought I read that you said the we had traded a 'proven' goalie, but now that I look back, I must have been seeing things.

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:25 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
It's a personal opinion. That's what I believe; Halak will be better than Carey Price. I wish the Canadiens nothing but the best. I was rooting for them & watched every playoff game this past year with all of my French Canadian friends. Halak made the Habs better, the Habs didn't make him better. On the other hand, I believe the honeymoon with Carey Price is over. He's a very skilled goalie but will remain inconsistent and may not ever reach his full potential in Montreal. I'm not basing this off of simple notions I have, I'm basing this off of what I've seen from the Montreal goaltenders the past 2 years.
Fair enough. I believe you will be proven wrong.

Any way we can have 1 big price/halak thread btw ?

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
People are backing, with reason, Price's talent and potential over Halak but all that without disrespecting Jaro. Now, nobody analyzed how both goalies would be able to deal with the pressure to be real 1 in Montreal 'cause that's something we don't know for sure and can only guess....
Without Halak the Habs do not make the ECF it is as simple as that. There is no chance, ever, that Price could have a better performance than that. Price may be skilled but he is "fleuryesque" and that is a huge problem. The Habs will regret this decision for as long as these two play.


Also there is absolutely no way you can compare Vernon's situation with Halaks. Vernon wasn't even that good during that time and was in the twilight of his career. Halak is just starting.

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:31 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
people may not 'trust' what eller may be / become but the fact remains he was ranked as the blues best forward prospect on a team with a very deep prospect pool
Well, he wasn't ranked as the best Blues forward prospect until part-way through last year as Perron, Berglund and Oshie hit the magic games played "graduated" status according to HF. So yeah, among the 3 forwards that remained in the Blues' top 12 prospects (according to HF), Eller was at the "top" (tied with 4 others at 7.5C including Sonne). All three of the former (P., B., O.), though, should still be seen as better players with similar (maybe even greater) potential until such time as Eller has been able to put in his first complete season.

As a reminder: Blue's Spring 2010 HF Prospect List

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08-26-2010, 12:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, he wasn't ranked as the best Blues forward prospect until part-way through last year as Perron, Berglund and Oshie hit the magic games played "graduated" status according to HF. So yeah, among the 3 forwards that remained in the Blues' top 12 prospects (according to HF), Eller was at the "top" (tied with 4 others at 7.5C including Sonne). All three of the former (P., B., O.), though, should still be seen as better players with similar (maybe even greater) potential until such time as Eller has been able to put in his first complete season.

As a reminder: Blue's Spring 2010 HF Prospect List

Wait so what you are telling me is that Eller will be better than Backes because he's rated as 7.5C while Backes is rated as 7.0B..........THIS IS AWESOME>>>>>YES!!!

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:41 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Sardo View Post
Not to derail the thread, but how many people have backed Price > Halak in the last 6 months?

Scotty Bowman
Patrick Roy
Peter Holland
Paul Holmgren
Cedrick Desjardins
Majority of pro scouts in one of Matthias Brunets articles IIRC

I know I am missing some, feel free to add them.

Who has backed Halak > Price?

HF
JC Lajoie
Le Baron
Richard Labbé

Feel free to add I know I am missing a lot.

Absolutely useless. What does this mean? If you're trying to suggest Price is the better goalie because he has gotten verbal support from people that have zero affiliation to him, well done, but other than that it's meaningless.

Way to take things out of context too, Roy? Paul Holmgren, wow isn't he the poster boy for solving goaltending issues. Why didn't we ask him sooner? Cedric Desjardins l


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Old
08-26-2010, 12:48 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by metalan2 View Post
Without Halak the Habs do not make the ECF it is as simple as that. There is no chance, ever, that Price could have a better performance than that. Price may be skilled but he is "fleuryesque" and that is a huge problem. The Habs will regret this decision for as long as these two play.
Just for fun, take a look at Fleury's stats for his first 130ish games, and compare them to Price. Then come back here so that I can mock you.

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08-26-2010, 12:51 PM
  #69
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Price has that big shape coupled with good technique. He's fast, he's athletic but the problem is that he seems to have lost it after the Philadelphia series. Playing in the playoffs at his age in his rookie season seems to have affected him. Now you seem him over commit to shots, over slide on his lateral movements, give up back breaker goals and those were things we didn't see a whole lot of, if at all, in his first season. You expect growing pains with goalies his age, but to see 2 years of regression from his first year is worrying. I'm just afraid he simply doesn't have the mental fortitude to tend the nets in Montreal. And this is a very real concern, some people aren't cut to play in Montreal. It wouldn't be so bad if he had the benefit of the doubt from the fans, but it's the complete opposite. I hope he's ready for the most important season of his life (if he really cares about being a hab) because the fans are expecting nothing short of that.

On the other hand, Halak has never disappointed at any time, and every time he needed to step up his game, he did. On top of that he's also young and has proven he can elevate his game in the playoffs.

I am a big fan of evaluating the future based on the past. It's not the only factor, but it's not like Halak is 35, or even 30. He's only 2 years older than Price. He's entering his prime. So it isn't anywhere near the same situation as Vernon-Osgood. I don't think Holland was really comparing the situations so much as giving an example of an unpopular decision he's had to make. Unpopular doesn't mean it's good. Sometimes the GM is wrong, and the fans are right. It's not because they're professionals that they're always right. I was looking at the historic of trades for PG and it's not anything impressive. He's been wrong in the past. And you wouldn't expect Holland to go all troll like on PG's ass "ROFL horrible trade, it takes a special kind of idiot to turn an easy decision into such a horrible mistake, this trade will haunt the habs for years". I mean... of course he's going to back another GM up if asked about it. I just took it as sympathizing with him after being asked a question.

So I don't get it. I definitely could be wrong and Halak was a flash in the pan and Price turns out like the goalie everyone thought he would be. There's certainly a chance this happens. Or even that both goalies turn out to be excellent for years and Eller tips the scale in our favor, but I just wouldn't have put my money on it like PG did.

If Price bombs and Halak keeps on impressing in st-louis, it's likely that will mean the door for PG. And it should. And I'll be there to cry about it non-stop for the next 5 years of us being a mediocre team.

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Old
08-26-2010, 12:54 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Price has that big shape coupled with good technique. He's fast, he's athletic but the problem is that he seems to have lost it after the Philadelphia series. Playing in the playoffs at his age in his rookie season seems to have affected him. Now you seem him over commit to shots, over slide on his lateral movements, give up back breaker goals and those were things we didn't see a whole lot of, if at all, in his first season. You expect growing pains with goalies his age, but to see 2 years of regression from his first year is worrying. I'm just afraid he simply doesn't have the mental fortitude to tend the nets in Montreal. And this is a very real concern, some people aren't cut to play in Montreal. It wouldn't be so bad if he had the benefit of the doubt from the fans, but it's the complete opposite. I hope he's ready for the most important season of his life (if he really cares about being a hab) because the fans are expecting nothing short of that.

On the other hand, Halak has never disappointed at any time, and every time he needed to step up his game, he did. On top of that he's also young and has proven he can elevate his game in the playoffs.

I am a big fan of evaluating the future based on the past. It's not the only factor, but it's not like Halak is 35, or even 30. He's only 2 years older than Price. He's entering his prime. So it isn't anywhere near the same situation as Vernon-Osgood. I don't think Holland was really comparing the situations so much as giving an example of an unpopular decision he's had to make. Unpopular doesn't mean it's good. Sometimes the GM is wrong, and the fans are right. It's not because they're professionals that they're always right. I was looking at the historic of trades for PG and it's not anything impressive. He's been wrong in the past. And you wouldn't expect Holland to go all troll like on PG's ass "ROFL horrible trade, it takes a special kind of idiot to turn an easy decision into such a horrible mistake, this trade will haunt the habs for years". I mean... of course he's going to back another GM up if asked about it. I just took it as sympathizing with him after being asked a question.

So I don't get it. I definitely could be wrong and Halak was a flash in the pan and Price turns out like the goalie everyone thought he would be. There's certainly a chance this happens. Or even that both goalies turn out to be excellent for years and Eller tips the scale in our favor, but I just wouldn't have put my money on it like PG did.

If Price bombs and Halak keeps on impressing in st-louis, it's likely that will mean the door for PG. And it should. And I'll be there to cry about it non-stop for the next 5 years of us being a mediocre team.
Price had a strong start to 08-09, it's when the Kostystyn/Hamrlik mafia thing hit and the team went in a tailspin that he seemed to lose his edge also.

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08-26-2010, 01:01 PM
  #71
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Just for fun, take a look at Fleury's stats for his first 130ish games, and compare them to Price. Then come back here so that I can mock you.
Why bother with the Fleury comparisons anymore? To be honest, I'll be disappointed if Price "only" turns out to be as "good" as Fleury (especially given the full speed ahead hype train). Unless, of course, he gets surrounded by players like Crosby and Malkin in Montreal, in which case I'd probably be too distracted to care anyway. Fleury has played 5 full seasons now, and besides his year as a 23 year old, and winning the Cup the following year, I haven't been overly impressed by him (since the WJC U20s, that is).

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08-26-2010, 01:08 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Why bother with the Fleury comparisons anymore? To be honest, I'll be disappointed if Price "only" turns out to be as "good" as Fleury (especially given the full speed ahead hype train). Unless, of course, he gets surrounded by players like Crosby and Malkin in Montreal, in which case I'd probably be too distracted to care anyway. Fleury has played 5 full seasons now, and besides his year as a 23 year old, and winning the Cup the following year, I haven't been overly impressed by him (since the WJC U20s, that is).
Oh, if Price turns into another Fleury I would be disappointed too. But he's not, for his first 130ish games, Price has been clearly better than him, so I don't see why he would start to regress now.

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08-26-2010, 01:15 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Halak, who will be miles ahead of Carey Price for the next 8-10 years & Montreal will be hurting for it.
Hey where did you buy your crystal ball? I've been looking for one for a while, but can't seem to find one.

Any help would be appreciated!

PS Does your crystal ball also tell you when the Leafs will finally make the playoffs?

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08-26-2010, 01:33 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Oh, if Price turns into another Fleury I would be disappointed too. But he's not, for his first 130ish games, Price has been clearly better than him, so I don't see why he would start to regress now.
Price has also had a much better team playing in front of him for the bulk of those 130 games, and I still don't see many people factoring that in properly at all. To get back to your point, though, I don't think Price has clearly shown anything of the sort... yet. We can still point to Fleury's 20 playoff games in '07/08 as being far better than anything we've seen over a similar length streak from Price, for example, and even last year they had pretty comparable "resumes" of impressive 30+ save performances.

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08-26-2010, 02:00 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Price has also had a much better team playing in front of him for the bulk of those 130 games, and I still don't see many people factoring that in properly at all.
Fleury played 22 games in an atrocious 2003-2004 team. That's the only time when the habs were clearly superior to the Pens.

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To get back to your point, though, I don't think Price has clearly shown anything of the sort... yet. We can still point to Fleury's 20 playoff games in '07/08 as being far better than anything we've seen over a similar length streak from Price, for example, and even last year they had pretty comparable "resumes" of impressive 30+ save performances.
What about Price last 20 games during the 2007-2008 season, from February 13th onward? 15 wins 4 loss (1 game he replaced Huet, just before Christo was traded). And all in its rookie season.

Fleury is a ordinary starter - pretty much everybody but Pens fans agree nowaday. And to compare his career beginning with Price's is very, very unfair for Price.

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