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Ken Holland (Red Wings GM) understands Gauthier's decision to trade Halak

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Old
08-26-2010, 07:35 PM
  #101
AntonCH
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Damn you Holland!! Damn YOU!! (ok well, probably the journalist)

Just when the whole Halak vs Price 'debate' died down a bit, someone just haaaaaaaad to mention the trade.
I hate to tell you buddy
You have a whole year of this to look forward to

Every time one has a 35 save performance while the other struggles, threads like these will rear their ugly heads

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08-26-2010, 07:56 PM
  #102
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what!? not consistent ?
Actually from my point of view it is true that Halak was not really consistent as a whole. He usually has 3-4 good/great games, and then 1 or more attrocious. I mean, he was pulled 3 times from the net in 19 games during the playoffs iirc.

In the season he allowed 4+ goals slightly over one game out of 4. For Price, it happened around 1 game out of 7.

The thing is, when Halak has a good game, he has a GOOD game. But some people seem to totally forget all the other ones where he wasn't good, even though he actually got the W in a bunch of them because somehow in these games his team managed to score 5-6 goals (while Price would lose 1-0 vs Buffalo with 45 shots or 2-0 vs Nashville with 55 shots). Seriously, it's not like it happens once in a blue moon, we're talking about over 1 game out of 4 with 4+ goals going in.

And remember game 2 vs Washington... we were leading 4-1. He had plenty of offensive support from his team. The goals #5-6 that he let in were really pretty ugly goals (the others I gotta say were the refs playing blind while he was being ran over). If we won that one and took a 2-0 lead, maybe he never would have had to do all the heroics.

I'm not blaming him at all (anyone blaming Halak in the playoffs would have to be ********, he clearly was the #1 factor for the great run), or saying he's not #1 material or a good goalie or anything of the sort. He's 25, which is still young for a goalie, and it takes a while to truly be consistent. What Halak always gave is great short streaks, then slowing down and usually picking it back up after he got replaced for a game or 2.

I'm really not sure how he will fare as a real #1 if he can't regularly catch a break. You have people like JayBee saying 'When you face 40 shots a game, it's understandable', but I have a hard time with that too because that's actually where he shines. Halak was often very so-so when the shots were more around 25-30 a game against him. I wish for him that he does well, but for me this is the reason why he's still unproven.

And btw, I'm not saying that Price is proven or consistent or better. I agree that right now, next year, Halak would probably be superior to Price. But I think that the Habs will have a window for the cup realistically in 3-4 seasons (with a lot of luck and all stars aligning in 2), so really what they have to think about is who is going to be the best goaler then. A better goaler next year might mean finishing 6th instead of 8th and getting to round 2 instead of round 1, but a better goaler in 3 years might mean the cup instead of the 3rd round (obviously it's optimistic, I'm not saying we'll win the cup in 3 years, just that I believe the window will be there, but it will be for some other teams too).

So Gauthier gambled and went for Price because he believes he'll be the best then. Is he right or wrong, only the future will tell, but the whole fans going up in arms and practically saying they will chase Carey out of town if he has 1 consecutive bad game can truly hurt the team much more than Gauthier did with the trade. It's just childish vengeful mentality.

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08-26-2010, 07:56 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
I hate to tell you buddy
You have a whole year of this to look forward to

Every time one has a 35 save performance while the other struggles, threads like these will rear their ugly heads
It's only going to get worse. Halak is playing for a defensive team. If they start beating the Wings and he's the hero...look out.

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08-26-2010, 07:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Actually from my point of view it is true that Halak was not really consistent as a whole. He usually has 3-4 good/great games, and then 1 or more attrocious. I mean, he was pulled 3 times from the net in 19 games during the playoffs iirc.

In the season he allowed 4+ goals slightly over one game out of 4. For Price, it happened around 1 game out of 7.

The thing is, when Halak has a good game, he has a GOOD game. But some people seem to totally forget all the other ones where he wasn't good, even though he actually got the W in a bunch of them because somehow in these games his team managed to score 5-6 goals (while Price would lose 1-0 vs Buffalo with 45 shots or 2-0 vs Nashville with 55 shots). Seriously, it's not like it happens once in a blue moon, we're talking about over 1 game out of 4 with 4+ goals going in.

And remember game 2 vs Washington... we were leading 4-1. He had plenty of offensive support from his team. The goals #5-6 that he let in were really pretty ugly goals (the others I gotta say were the refs playing blind while he was being ran over). If we won that one and took a 2-0 lead, maybe he never would have had to do all the heroics.

I'm not blaming him at all (anyone blaming Halak in the playoffs would have to be ********, he clearly was the #1 factor for the great run), or saying he's not #1 material or a good goalie or anything of the sort. He's 25, which is still young for a goalie, and it takes a while to truly be consistent. What Halak always gave is great short streaks, then slowing down and usually picking it back up after he got replaced for a game or 2.

I'm really not sure how he will fare as a real #1 if he can't regularly catch a break. You have people like JayBee saying 'When you face 40 shots a game, it's understandable', but I have a hard time with that too because that's actually where he shines. Halak was often very so-so when the shots were more around 25-30 a game against him. I wish for him that he does well, but for me this is the reason why he's still unproven.

And btw, I'm not saying that Price is proven or consistent or better. I agree that right now, next year, Halak would probably be superior to Price. But I think that the Habs will have a window for the cup realistically in 3-4 seasons (with a lot of luck and all stars aligning in 2), so really what they have to think about is who is going to be the best goaler then. A better goaler next year might mean finishing 6th instead of 8th and getting to round 2 instead of round 1, but a better goaler in 3 years might mean the cup instead of the 3rd round (obviously it's optimistic, I'm not saying we'll win the cup in 3 years, just that I believe the window will be there, but it will be for some other teams too).

So Gauthier gambled and went for Price because he believes he'll be the best then. Is he right or wrong, only the future will tell, but the whole fans going up in arms and practically saying they will chase Carey out of town if he has 1 consecutive bad game can truly hurt the team much more than Gauthier did with the trade. It's just childish vengeful mentality.
Yes, but we didn't have Markov all year and are not as solid defensively as St. Louis. Time will tell, but when he's had "bad" games, it's usually due to lack of support and nothing else.

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08-26-2010, 08:04 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Yes, but we didn't have Markov all year and are not as solid defensively as St. Louis. Time will tell, but when he's had "bad" games, it's usually due to lack of support and nothing else.
I disagree actually. He really had many bad games where he was letting goals through quite regularly that Price would get crucified for. It's just that people forget them because of the good ones...

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08-26-2010, 08:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Yes, but we didn't have Markov all year and are not as solid defensively as St. Louis. Time will tell, but when he's had "bad" games, it's usually due to lack of support and nothing else.
What makes you claim this?

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08-26-2010, 08:26 PM
  #107
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halakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Simply put...yes he traded a popular player but he was trading a position that we have strength in. We have two number one goalies. We got a very good return for him. If we waited any longer, we may be stuck with two goalies still. The market remains very week for goalies. You look at Chicago, how they let go of Niemi after helping them win the CUP! He has been what..on the market for around two weeks and STILL NO JOB!!! Chicago gave him up for NOTHING. We got a very good young prospect and a potential grinder/3rd liner. I like Halak..but with the nature of the salary cap...it is what it is. People who complain we didn't get enough for him just don't know the reality of todays NHL...

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08-26-2010, 08:43 PM
  #108
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It's only going to get worse. Halak is playing for a defensive team. If they start beating the Wings and he's the hero...look out.
St-Louis allowed 223Goals last year, the same amount we allowed. They scored 8 more goals than us. They finished with 2points more than us. They went through their share of injuries especially on Defense, losing Brewer and Jackman for 15-20Games each, but I don't think it's comparable to the injuries we suffered.

But let's say St-Louis is this defensive powerhouse (which it isn't), he'll be playing in a tougher division than the Northeast one. Two of the best teams in the West (and NHL) are playing in that division (Detroit and Chicago). His workload will be tougher than what it was with us, at least it is on paper.

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Yes, but we didn't have Markov all year and are not as solid defensively as St. Louis. Time will tell, but when he's had "bad" games, it's usually due to lack of support and nothing else.
Actually, Price played double the amount of games without Markov than Halak did.
Jaro only played 13Games without Markov, Price 26.
We suffered most of our injuries in 2009 (and let's not forget we had a Latendresse being misused and turned useless, we didn't have Pouliot play until the last week of December), Price only played 14Games in 2010.

Halak benefited from playing with a healthier roster for most of his games. But there's no denying the fact that he still performed better than Price when playing with the same injured roster.

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08-26-2010, 11:39 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Actually from my point of view it is true that Halak was not really consistent as a whole. He usually has 3-4 good/great games, and then 1 or more attrocious. I mean, he was pulled 3 times from the net in 19 games during the playoffs iirc.

In the season he allowed 4+ goals slightly over one game out of 4. For Price, it happened around 1 game out of 7.



I'm not blaming him at all (anyone blaming Halak in the playoffs would have to be ********, he clearly was the #1 factor for the great run), or saying he's not #1 material or a good goalie or anything of the sort. He's 25, which is still young for a goalie, and it takes a while to truly be consistent. What Halak always gave is great short streaks, then slowing down and usually picking it back up after he got replaced for a game or 2.

I'm really not sure how he will fare as a real #1 if he can't regularly catch a break. You have people like JayBee saying 'When you face 40 shots a game, it's understandable', but I have a hard time with that too because that's actually where he shines. Halak was often very so-so when the shots were more around 25-30 a game against him. I wish for him that he does well, but for me this is the reason why he's still unproven.

And btw, I'm not saying that Price is proven or consistent or better. I agree that right now, next year, Halak would probably be superior to Price. But I think that the Habs will have a window for the cup realistically in 3-4 seasons (with a lot of luck and all stars aligning in 2), so really what they have to think about is who is going to be the best goaler then. A better goaler next year might mean finishing 6th instead of 8th and getting to round 2 instead of round 1, but a better goaler in 3 years might mean the cup instead of the 3rd round (obviously it's optimistic, I'm not saying we'll win the cup in 3 years, just that I believe the window will be there, but it will be for some other teams too).

.
your post was a great read, and despite some minor perception differences, I'd agree with your post, almost completely. Halak has still a long way to go , and the short streak argument is completely true. But at the same time, that patern seems to have gotten more and more contageous with goalies ... every goalie now seems on and off , not like in the past. whether its the devils losing by 6 goals, or luongo apparently losing his mojo, seems like goalies are more fragile nowadays, perhaps a reason as to why their value has dropped on the market... who knows. I really believe more in partnerships like we had this year than the labelled #1 , over used , like kiprousoff ... but maybe thats just me.

that being said halak is not a 70 games/year starter. But 55 to 60 with a solid number two playing 20-25 games I still think he's a great pick up for whoever wants him.

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08-27-2010, 03:16 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Actually from my point of view it is true that Halak was not really consistent as a whole. He usually has 3-4 good/great games, and then 1 or more attrocious. I mean, he was pulled 3 times from the net in 19 games during the playoffs iirc.
Just quoted this part to say that some of your OP is edited out for space. Oh, and to mention that atrocious is a fairly poor exaggeration if you hope to contain over 25% of his games (i.e. "1 or more" for every "3-4 good/great games") within those boundaries, regardless of how subjective the term.

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In the season he allowed 4+ goals slightly over one game out of 4. For Price, it happened around 1 game out of 7.
Well, since someone else is bringing back stats, I guess I'll play too. Allowing 3+ goals is probably seen as "below average" (as a GAA of 3 or more is considered "bad"), and Price was "below average" 24 times in 41 appearances, while Halak was for 20 of 45.

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The thing is, when Halak has a good game, he has a GOOD game. But some people seem to totally forget all the other ones where he wasn't good, even though he actually got the W in a bunch of them because somehow in these games his team managed to score 5-6 goals (while Price would lose 1-0 vs Buffalo with 45 shots or 2-0 vs Nashville with 55 shots). Seriously, it's not like it happens once in a blue moon, we're talking about over 1 game out of 4 with 4+ goals going in.
Guess that's how good Halak WAS for those "good games". But let's not pretend that people are "forgetting" about those other games. People simply remember one of the more important aspects of goaltending that was somewhat constant last year: Halak kept the team closer at the end of games.

I also enjoy that there's a group of people who can pull those Buffalo and Nashville games out of a hat whenever the conversation gets steered towards goal support. I have to wonder, how many of you (without checking) can name the teams that Halak lost 2-1 overtime games against last year? Those are pretty bad cases of goal support, aren't they?

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I'm really not sure how he will fare as a real #1 if he can't regularly catch a break. You have people like JayBee saying 'When you face 40 shots a game, it's understandable', but I have a hard time with that too because that's actually where he shines. Halak was often very so-so when the shots were more around 25-30 a game against him. I wish for him that he does well, but for me this is the reason why he's still unproven.
I thought this was an interesting range to focus on, given that neither goalie performed particularly well under those circumstances (Price was 0-8L, for example, with five 3+ goal games while Halak was something like 4W-9L with nine 3+ goal games). I don't see how either separates themselves from the other here. The league average for shots allowed in a game though (which Montreal is well above) is more like 30.X shots/game, so the real range a goalie should be effective in is 25-35. Both goalies were about even there, btw, but it looks like Halak comes out slightly ahead (even disregarding records, where Halak was 10W-13L vs Price's 4W-13L).

/end nonsensical stats corner

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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
And btw, I'm not saying that Price is proven or consistent or better. I agree that right now, next year, Halak would probably be superior to Price. But I think that the Habs will have a window for the cup realistically in 3-4 seasons (with a lot of luck and all stars aligning in 2), so really what they have to think about is who is going to be the best goaler then. A better goaler next year might mean finishing 6th instead of 8th and getting to round 2 instead of round 1, but a better goaler in 3 years might mean the cup instead of the 3rd round (obviously it's optimistic, I'm not saying we'll win the cup in 3 years, just that I believe the window will be there, but it will be for some other teams too).
If you believe management has zeroed in on a "window", or that there is an easily identifiably one looking at the current lineup up, I suggest that the window is either much shorter than 4 years, or much longer.

I say possibly shorter because chances should be better before all of Plekanec, Gomez, Cammalleri and Gionta are all in their 30s (you can't expect all of your main sources of offense to maintain point production after a certain age, decreasing your chances), and few are the possibilities of those who could possibly straight up replace their production/take their roles any time soon. Also, you have guys like Gill, Hamrlik, and Spacek right now that won't be as useful as playoff anchors on defense for much longer. That would mean the best goalie for the next year or two would have been best. Probably Halak for that job (and Moore instead of Eller, perhaps).

I say possibly longer, because of what could be potentially be done with all the cap space coming off the books within 4 years if guys like Hamrlik, Gomez, Gionta, probably even Markov, etc aren't making nearly as much money (or not with the team at all). Maybe the future has very little to do with Gomez, Gionta, Markov, and the older gang. Maybe PG is fully planning for the Leblanc/Eller/Max Pac/Kristo/Subban/Tinordi/etc days (should be fun watching in about 4 or 5 years of so if they're all 'here'), and Price makes the most sense in that case, I guess, since he'll still be younger than 30.

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08-27-2010, 06:23 AM
  #111
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1) you cherry picked, read your own post.

2) consitent ; over a period of time, like ; a season. or the playoffs...of course you will have bad games, but when you zoom out, can you really say halak has been inconsistent (more than the average), in his general performance ?

3) today , imo, halak > price. Carey's potential could give us all a ***** it won't change reality. concrete example ; carey's unsportdmanlike conduct penalty when game was still at reach vs washington. Picture yourself being a teamate. this is my opinion, based on my analysis, which I'm entitled to. We always get pictured like we are the only ''crazy'' ones thinking that. As if price was undoubtably better. give me a break. and ask around if you think I'm alone.

4) Carey is shoved down my throat like a candy, by the organisation, and by fans like you. It has nothing to do with fans being impatient, its all about the organisation being impatient.

yeah because I'm not sold on price, I know nothing about hockey. keep playing with words and pretend you dialogue in good faith, but stop acting surprised when someone rants please.
1) You call that cherry picking? Learn the meaning of the words buddy before posting. BTW, that game was the most important game of the year and the most pressure he had ever faced in his NHL career and he played terrible! Stop avoiding where your precious Halak fuc*ed up. Habs almost did not make the playoffs because of him. If that would have happened, no miracle performance in the playoffs and trading Halak would have gone unnoticed by evreyone. Sometimes I wish that this is what should have happened so that fans like you would stop whinning like a 4 year old about trading Halak.

2) Halak has never been consistent because he as never played on a regualr basis. Halak was not great in the first half of the season and was a real yoyo in the playoffs. Sorry, that is not being consistent. More than Price, yes, but still not consistent. Playing bad and digging a hole in the playoffs to then play miracle boy is not the way to go and usually will end up costing you.

3) Halak > Price last year. This year = ? Things change fast in the NHL, especially for goalies and for kids with a lot of potential like Price. Price was > Halak 2 years ago, remember that? I love people's short term and selective memory.

Also, we could not keep both. So even if Halak will still be better for 1 year let's say (and that's slightly better, not way better, and I'm not sold on that at all), you would rather keep him for 1 good year and than have a lesser goalie for the next 5 to 10 years? You would make a great GM The goalie the Habs were going to keep will be there for a long time, so they had to chose who they think will be the best long term, and they made the right decision.

4) Nope, you're the candy lover. Price will be fine and all the posters like you will end up looking like fools in a few years.

I love how arm chair GMs in their basement think they know better than actual NHL management people who are paid to do this job.

You're allowed to not yet be sold on Price. I was laughing at your hockey comments and analysis about Halak and the whole situation trying to prove that Halak is better and more proven.

Of course Price is not yet proven, but is worst season ever still produced very respectable stats in Sv% and GAA. It's not like we are stuck with a poor goalie like you are trying to picture the situation. Halak lovers like you are often unrealistic about Price. I don't hate Halak and I would not of had a problem with keeping him instead, I always tought we had 2 very good young goalies, but I think that Price will have the better future. All I'm saying is top trying to make Halak way better than price when he is not at all.

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08-27-2010, 08:52 AM
  #112
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That or maybe armchair Gms really do think they know better than the professionals who make the decisions.
No offense to you Gordie but C-C-C-C-C-C-C COMBO BREAKER!!!

You just got pwned.

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08-27-2010, 08:44 PM
  #113
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1) You call that cherry picking? Learn the meaning of the words buddy before posting. BTW, that game was the most important game of the year and the most pressure he had ever faced in his NHL career and he played terrible! Stop avoiding where your precious Halak fuc*ed up. Habs almost did not make the playoffs because of him. If that would have happened, no miracle performance in the playoffs and trading Halak would have gone unnoticed by evreyone. Sometimes I wish that this is what should have happened so that fans like you would stop whinning like a 4 year old about trading Halak.

2) Halak has never been consistent because he as never played on a regualr basis. Halak was not great in the first half of the season and was a real yoyo in the playoffs. Sorry, that is not being consistent. More than Price, yes, but still not consistent. Playing bad and digging a hole in the playoffs to then play miracle boy is not the way to go and usually will end up costing you.

3) Halak > Price last year. This year = ? Things change fast in the NHL, especially for goalies and for kids with a lot of potential like Price. Price was > Halak 2 years ago, remember that? I love people's short term and selective memory.

Also, we could not keep both. So even if Halak will still be better for 1 year let's say (and that's slightly better, not way better, and I'm not sold on that at all), you would rather keep him for 1 good year and than have a lesser goalie for the next 5 to 10 years? You would make a great GM The goalie the Habs were going to keep will be there for a long time, so they had to chose who they think will be the best long term, and they made the right decision.

4) Nope, you're the candy lover. Price will be fine and all the posters like you will end up looking like fools in a few years.

I love how arm chair GMs in their basement think they know better than actual NHL management people who are paid to do this job.

You're allowed to not yet be sold on Price. I was laughing at your hockey comments and analysis about Halak and the whole situation trying to prove that Halak is better and more proven.

Of course Price is not yet proven, but is worst season ever still produced very respectable stats in Sv% and GAA. It's not like we are stuck with a poor goalie like you are trying to picture the situation. Halak lovers like you are often unrealistic about Price. I don't hate Halak and I would not of had a problem with keeping him instead, I always tought we had 2 very good young goalies, but I think that Price will have the better future. All I'm saying is top trying to make Halak way better than price when he is not at all.
the first part in bold is about where I stopped to care.

but since I'm a generous man, the second part in bold is a gift. that's where you should start the therapy, if you ever intend to.

and again, I want to make sure you read this ;

4) Carey is shoved down my throat like a candy, by the organisation, and by fans like you. It has nothing to do with fans being impatient, its all about the organisation being impatient.

and I add : I hope carey will have a phenomenal season.


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08-28-2010, 09:49 AM
  #114
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the first part in bold is about where I stopped to care.

but since I'm a generous man, the second part in bold is a gift. that's where you should start the therapy, if you ever intend to.

and again, I want to make sure you read this ;

4) Carey is shoved down my throat like a candy, by the organisation, and by fans like you. It has nothing to do with fans being impatient, its all about the organisation being impatient.

and I add : I hope carey will have a phenomenal season.
Your understanding of the english language and your ability to read and understand what someone writes is what needs serious therapy

I seriously don't hate Halak, but Halak lovers like you that defend him in such a ridiculous way by overvaluating the guy and making him sound way better than Price is what I hate.

You do realize that its people like you that are shoving Halak down our throats. The organization is making room for who they believe will be their top goalie for the next decade. That's not shoving anything, that's smart management, but something smart is beyond your comprehension, and unfortunately, there is no therapy for that.

If you can't understand that 1 of them needed to go, than you are hopeless. If you do understand that, then what is your problem with the Halak trade? Sorry, but anyone complaining about the trade simply as no logic in is ideas and can't evaluate and understand a simple basic situation. In that case, I'm done talking to you, because there is no reason to discuss with someone who as no logic.

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08-28-2010, 12:24 PM
  #115
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Your understanding of the english language and your ability to read and understand what someone writes is what needs serious therapy

I seriously don't hate Halak, but Halak lovers like you that defend him in such a ridiculous way by overvaluating the guy and making him sound way better than Price is what I hate.

You do realize that its people like you that are shoving Halak down our throats. The organization is making room for who they believe will be their top goalie for the next decade. That's not shoving anything, that's smart management, but something smart is beyond your comprehension, and unfortunately, there is no therapy for that.

If you can't understand that 1 of them needed to go, than you are hopeless. If you do understand that, then what is your problem with the Halak trade? Sorry, but anyone complaining about the trade simply as no logic in is ideas and can't evaluate and understand a simple basic situation. In that case, I'm done talking to you, because there is no reason to discuss with someone who as no logic.
thanks! and good luck applying your words of wisdom to your own posts!


Last edited by THE HOFF: 08-28-2010 at 12:47 PM.
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