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Forsberg vs. Clarke

View Poll Results: Peter Forsberg or Bobby Clarke
Clarke 69 78.41%
Forsberg 19 21.59%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-26-2010, 10:01 PM
  #151
timekeep
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Jaromir Jagr?????
Yes, if I was starting a team I would take Clarke ahead of Jagr and way ahead of Forsberg.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
No way is Clarke better than Jagr all-time, peak and intangibles would be over valued if that happens. Jagr blows him offensively and his playoff performances are more impressive. Clarke played first line minutes on a stacked team and he couldnt even lead his team in playoff scorings.
I am wondering if you watched Bobby Clarke play. Are you saying that Barber and Leach were better than Sakic, Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, Murphy etc. I am including Sakic to stay on subject as this is a Clarke versus Forsberg thread. If you want to start a Jagr vs Clarke thread I will argue further there.

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08-26-2010, 10:06 PM
  #152
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Yes, if I was starting a team I would take Clarke ahead of Jagr and way ahead of Forsberg.



I am wondering if you watched Bobby Clarke play. Are you saying that Barber and Leach were better than Sakic, Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, Murphy etc. I am including Sakic to stay on subject as this is a Clarke versus Forsberg thread. If you want to start a Jagr vs Clarke thread I will argue further there.
I've seen the plyoff games from 74-76 and I can comfortably say hes below sakic and jagr in terms of playoff performances. It was reggie leach and rick macliesh that really stood out along with parent, clarke was just merely good.

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08-26-2010, 10:59 PM
  #153
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I've seen the plyoff games from 74-76 and I can comfortably say hes below sakic and jagr in terms of playoff performances. It was reggie leach and rick macliesh that really stood out along with parent, clarke was just merely good.
Macleish was a playoff Monster. you will get no argument from me there. In fact, Macleish was better in the playoffs than Jagr ever was. Such a formidable clutch two way forward.

Parent was also a playoff Monster in his peak. No argument from me. His 2 Smythe's speak for themselves. Better than Jagr ever was.

Leach is somewhat of a darkhorse. He had 1 spectacular playoff run better than anything Jagr ever did. The only forward to ever win the Smythe on a losing team.

But I would still take Clarke's shutting down of opposing teams top lines and PK presence on my team while providing very good offense in the playoffs if I were drafting. Not to mention his Heart and soul leadership, tenacity, and willingness to do anything to win.

Granted I do rank Jagr slightly ahead. But let's not try to sell Clarke short here.

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08-27-2010, 10:18 PM
  #154
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Yes, if I was starting a team I would take Clarke ahead of Jagr and way ahead of Forsberg.


Wow, and I mean no disrespect to Clarke or anything but there is no way I'd pass up Jagr for Clarke. Clarke over Forsberg? Sure. But Clarke's two way game still does not make up for the tantalizing talent of Jagr. There are some players who were so good on the offensive side of the game that they can be forgiven for not being elite defensively. Jagr fits this bill. He elevated the play of his teammates. He took the Pens further in the playoffs than they deserved. He scored 127 points with Straka and Barnes. He was impossible to knock off the puck, he was a much better goal scorer than Clarke, in fact it isn't even close. If you said he was a better playmaker I would likely agree with that as well.

Give me Jaromir 8 days a week

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08-28-2010, 12:39 PM
  #155
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Wow, and I mean no disrespect to Clarke or anything but there is no way I'd pass up Jagr for Clarke. Clarke over Forsberg? Sure. But Clarke's two way game still does not make up for the tantalizing talent of Jagr. There are some players who were so good on the offensive side of the game that they can be forgiven for not being elite defensively. Jagr fits this bill. He elevated the play of his teammates. He took the Pens further in the playoffs than they deserved. He scored 127 points with Straka and Barnes. He was impossible to knock off the puck, he was a much better goal scorer than Clarke, in fact it isn't even close. If you said he was a better playmaker I would likely agree with that as well.

Give me Jaromir 8 days a week
I agree but a lot of people tend to buy into the "Canadian salt of the earth" grit and two-way ability Clarke possessed. He was great at faceoffs, playmaking and captaining but his tactics and the Flyers play overall may have been effective but Jagr dominated without that support or having to whack at ankles to get respect on the ice. It's close but Clarke never showed great goal scoring ability (never hit 40 and only cracked 30 a few times in a higher scoring era than most of Jagr's career) much like Foppa. Clarke's 3 Hart trophies to Jagr's 1 is an advantage but Jagr won 5 scoring titles from the right wing. Jagr had even more proficient linemates for a while but from 1997-2000 he played his best hockey with average talent around him.

If Clarke won a scoring title or two, picked up some 40 goal years and stuff then he'd be higher than Jaromir IMO. I think a better argument would be Forsberg vs. Clarke or Trottier vs. Jagr. I always find it tough to compare wingers and centres but not when they did what Jags did. He didn't just score goals from the wing like he was supposed to do, he set up even his own centres. He holds the record for assists by a RW with 87 and didn't need the 80s to do it. Now, the real incredible mark is his 83assists in 1998-99 done without Mario and with a very low scoring season in the NHL. But Jagr was good enough to make a mediocre team dangerous. I'm not sure Clarke could've done that in 1975 if he was top centre of, say, Pittsburgh or Vancouver (average but not lousy teams that year).

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08-29-2010, 01:03 AM
  #156
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Macleish was a playoff Monster. you will get no argument from me there. In fact, Macleish was better in the playoffs than Jagr ever was. Such a formidable clutch two way forward.

Parent was also a playoff Monster in his peak. No argument from me. His 2 Smythe's speak for themselves. Better than Jagr ever was.

Leach is somewhat of a darkhorse. He had 1 spectacular playoff run better than anything Jagr ever did. The only forward to ever win the Smythe on a losing team.

But I would still take Clarke's shutting down of opposing teams top lines and PK presence on my team while providing very good offense in the playoffs if I were drafting. Not to mention his Heart and soul leadership, tenacity, and willingness to do anything to win.

Granted I do rank Jagr slightly ahead. But let's not try to sell Clarke short here.
Well as long as we are not selling Clarke short here let's not over sell him as well.

The hockey news top 100 in 1998 had him at 30th and I would probably rank him a bit lower than that today as well although that list has it's problems as well.

Look my 1st jersey was number 16 from Philly and i grew up and live in Vancouver that's how much i loved the guy as a kid but if we put some perspective on his career and context as well he is not as great as you are making him out to be IMO and not as good as Foppa overall if you take their entire careers in consideration or are you even considering Foppa's international play at all here when comparing the 2 players?

Just wondering?

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08-29-2010, 01:52 AM
  #157
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I agree, Clarke does seem to be made better than he actually was. Sure his 5 best seasons are better than Sakic's. The only problem is that joe sakic's 6th-15th best seasons absoluetly cream Clarke's next 10 best seasons. Clarke was also a no show in international play and just good in the playoffs.

What would I rather have, Joe Sakic's clutchness and superior offense, or the two way play of clarke for about 7-8 years? Not a hard choice at alll.

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08-29-2010, 02:03 AM
  #158
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Look my 1st jersey was number 16 from Philly and i grew up and live in Vancouver that's how much i loved the guy as a kid but if we put some perspective on his career and context as well he is not as great as you are making him out to be IMO and not as good as Foppa overall if you take their entire careers in consideration or are you even considering Foppa's international play at all here when comparing the 2 players?

Just wondering?
Take their entire careers in consideration? Hmmm, I think by doing so, that's exactly where Clarke beats Forsberg. And comparing their international play is a bit unfair to Clarke, don't you think? When Clarke did have the chance to play for Canada, he was usually very good IMO, especially when considering that in '72 he was hardly at his peak yet, whereas in '76 he had some sort of injury and missed one game, still getting better and more efficient as the stakes got higher (I've seen nearly all Team Canada's games). He was downright awful in the 1982 World Championships, but I think that can be forgiven, considering that he was well past his prime by then... and Forsberg hasn't been that great internationally in years - for obvious reasons. Even in Foppa's prime, Mats Sundin usually outperformed him.

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08-29-2010, 02:06 AM
  #159
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I agree, Clarke does seem to be made better than he actually was. Sure his 5 best seasons are better than Sakic's. The only problem is that joe sakic's 6th-15th best seasons absoluetly cream Clarke's next 10 best seasons. Clarke was also a no show in international play and just good in the playoffs.
Total nonsense.

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08-29-2010, 03:29 AM
  #160
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Look my 1st jersey was number 16 from Philly and i grew up and live in Vancouver that's how much i loved the guy as a kid but if we put some perspective on his career and context as well he is not as great as you are making him out to be IMO and not as good as Foppa overall if you take their entire careers in consideration or are you even considering Foppa's international play at all here when comparing the 2 players?

Just wondering?
As a Swede who has watched 95% of Foppa's international games, I would still take Clarke's peak international play ('72 and '76) over Foppa's peak ('98). Even if you wouldn't it's clear that noone holds a significant advantage over the other.

Foppa is international credentials is way way overrated, probably because of the 1994 shootout. But he was not the best forward on the team that year, Naslund and Loob carried that team. In 1998 it's arguable that he was better than Sundin, but even there it is very close. Appart from those years he really hasn't done that much on the international stage. He was usually in playoffs or injured during most international tournaments. In 2006 he was definitely a passenger.

Clarke was by many considered the best Canadian player during the 1972 summit series (your milage may vary). He captained the team to a win during the 1976 Canada Cup. What more could he have done?

Overall they were both great international players in their prime, but underperformed in the later international tournaments of their career. I think Clarke's play in 1972 was more dominant than Foppa's in 1998, so I pick him. Please state your case for Foppa.

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08-29-2010, 04:25 AM
  #161
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Just out of pure interest I wanted to check, if this talk about Clarke being a slightly disappointing playoff performer was true - especially since in those games I've seen him play (which admittedly are not too many) he has been, well, Bobby Clarke; killer faceoff ability, forechecking and penalty-killing, as well as some elite playmaking. I wanted to concentrate on his numbers in the Stanley Cup finals, and with the help of the Hockey Summary Project site (http://hsp.flyershistory.com/) this is how those look like:

1974 vs. the Bruins GP: 6* G: 3 A: 3 PPG: 1
1975 vs. the Sabres GP: 6* G: 2 A: 3 PPG: .833...
1976 vs. the Habs GP: 4* G: - A: 3 PPG: .75
1980 vs. the Islanders GP: 6* G: 4 A: 3 PPG: 1.166...

Total: GP: 22* G: 9 A: 12 PPG: .954...

* presumably he played all the games?

So it looks like he was a little more efficient in the finals than in all the rest playoff games he played (--> 98 points in 114 games, PPG: .859...).

When comparing these numbers to his regular season stats, 1975 and 1976 performances are clearly disappointing, stats-wise at least. I think he can be excused for running into a brick wall in the form of the Habs in 1976, but it does seem strange how he dried up after game 2 in the 1975 finals, even if he conciously had concentrated on defense after the two victories.

Then again, 1974 and especially 1980 were seemingly very good serieses for him (certainly evidenced by those few games I've seen). And considering how much Bobby Clarke, if anyone, was more than just about raw numbers... I mean, sure, if a player like Marcel Dionne (my 'whipping boy' ) was held off the scoreboard, what else was there? Bobby Clarke, on the other hand, brought so much more to the table.

A little more about Clarke's international play in best-on-best tournaments/serieses.

In 1972, IMO he was certainly responsible for Paul Henderson's success (mostly in Canada) - and that is what Henderson himself has more or less said. It is true, though, that in those last 3 crucial games he probably wasn't one of the key players for Team Canada; Esposito, Park and Henderson at least were certainly more 'clutch' that time. And of course he was/is a dick for what he did to Kharlamov.

In the 1976 Canada Cup, he was quite mediocre at first and missed a game (was it against USA or Sweden?), but got himself on the scorebord when it mattered, with 2 assists and 1 goal in the last 3 games. Don't forget it was him who scored Canada's 3rd goal in the 2nd final, as well as assisting on the tying goal (at 17:48) that got them into the OT. At the same time, he was brilliant defensively and the captain of the team.

As far as the 1979 Challenge Cup goes, IMO he, along with Gainey and Barber, showed excellent shutout skills (versus Balderis, Zhluktov and Kapustin) in the 1st game, was 'okay' in game 2 and sucked with the rest of the NHL All-Stars in the final game.

Summa Summarum; if one thinks that Bobby Clarke was only mediocre/'good' in the playoffs and poor internationally, that person probably doesn't like him as a player & the set of skills that he had (which weren't flashy at all). But that's just my interpretation.


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08-29-2010, 12:38 PM
  #162
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Just out of pure interest I wanted to check, if this talk about Clarke being a slightly disappointing playoff performer was true - especially since in those games I've seen him play (which admittedly are not too many) he has been, well, Bobby Clarke; killer faceoff ability, forechecking and penalty-killing, as well as some elite playmaking. I wanted to concentrate on his numbers in the Stanley Cup finals, and with the help of the Hockey Summary Project site (http://hsp.flyershistory.com/) this is how those look like:

1974 vs. the Bruins GP: 6* G: 3 A: 3 PPG: 1
1975 vs. the Sabres GP: 6* G: 2 A: 3 PPG: .833...
1976 vs. the Habs GP: 4* G: - A: 3 PPG: .75
1980 vs. the Islanders GP: 6* G: 4 A: 3 PPG: 1.166...

Total: GP: 22* G: 9 A: 12 PPG: .954...

* presumably he played all the games?

So it looks like he was a little more efficient in the finals than in all the rest playoff games he played (--> 98 points in 114 games, PPG: .859...).

When comparing these numbers to his regular season stats, 1975 and 1976 performances are clearly disappointing, stats-wise at least. I think he can be excused for running into a brick wall in the form of the Habs in 1976, but it does seem strange how he dried up after game 2 in the 1975 finals, even if he conciously had concentrated on defense after the two victories.

Then again, 1974 and especially 1980 were seemingly very good serieses for him (certainly evidenced by those few games I've seen). And considering how much Bobby Clarke, if anyone, was more than just about raw numbers... I mean, sure, if a player like Marcel Dionne (my 'whipping boy' ) was held off the scoreboard, what else was there? Bobby Clarke, on the other hand, brought so much more to the table.

A little more about Clarke's international play in best-on-best tournaments.

In 1972, IMO he was certainly responsible for Paul Henderson's success (mostly in Canada) - and that is what Henderson himself has more or less said. It is true, though, that in those last 3 crucial games he probably wasn't one of the key players for Team Canada; Esposito, Park and Henderson at least were certainly more 'clutch' that time. And of course he was/is a dick for what he did to Kharlamov.

In the 1976 Canada Cup, he was quite mediocre at first and missed a game (was it against USA or Sweden?), but got himself on the scorebord when it mattered, with 2 assists and 1 goal in the last 3 games. Don't forget it was him who scored Canada's 3rd goal in the 2nd final, as well as assisting on the tying goal (at 17:48) that got them into the OT. At the same time, he was brilliant defensively and the captain of the team.

As far as the 1979 Challenge Cup goes, IMO he, along with Gainey and Barber, showed excellent shutout skills (versus Balderis, Zhluktov and Kapustin) in the 1st game, was 'okay' in game 2 and sucked with the rest of the NHL All-Stars in the final game.

Summa Summarum; if one thinks that Bobby Clarke was only mediocre/'good' in the playoffs and poor internationally, that person probably doesn't like him as a player & the set of skills that he had (which weren't flashy at all). But that's just my interpretation.
Great post

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08-29-2010, 12:40 PM
  #163
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As a Swede who has watched 95% of Foppa's international games, I would still take Clarke's peak international play ('72 and '76) over Foppa's peak ('98). Even if you wouldn't it's clear that noone holds a significant advantage over the other.

Foppa is international credentials is way way overrated, probably because of the 1994 shootout. But he was not the best forward on the team that year, Naslund and Loob carried that team. In 1998 it's arguable that he was better than Sundin, but even there it is very close. Appart from those years he really hasn't done that much on the international stage. He was usually in playoffs or injured during most international tournaments. In 2006 he was definitely a passenger.

Clarke was by many considered the best Canadian player during the 1972 summit series (your milage may vary). He captained the team to a win during the 1976 Canada Cup. What more could he have done?

Overall they were both great international players in their prime, but underperformed in the later international tournaments of their career. I think Clarke's play in 1972 was more dominant than Foppa's in 1998, so I pick him. Please state your case for Foppa.
Never heard anyone say that before. Clarke was still in his growing stages as a player at this point.

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08-29-2010, 01:01 PM
  #164
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Well as long as we are not selling Clarke short here let's not over sell him as well.

The hockey news top 100 in 1998 had him at 30th and I would probably rank him a bit lower than that today as well although that list has it's problems as well.

Look my 1st jersey was number 16 from Philly and i grew up and live in Vancouver that's how much i loved the guy as a kid but if we put some perspective on his career and context as well he is not as great as you are making him out to be IMO and not as good as Foppa overall if you take their entire careers in consideration or are you even considering Foppa's international play at all here when comparing the 2 players?

Just wondering?
?
The Hockey news top 100 had Clarke at #23

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08-29-2010, 01:05 PM
  #165
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?
The Hockey news top 100 had Clarke at #23

The wikipedia page for the THN Top 100 has been vandalized for some reason. Is it available anywhere else online?

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08-29-2010, 01:07 PM
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The wikipedia page for the THN Top 100 has been vandalized for some reason. Is it available anywhere else online?
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=382140

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08-29-2010, 01:55 PM
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I think I know who vandalized the page, but I guess it'd be unfair to accuse anyone of anything without proof.

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08-29-2010, 09:22 PM
  #168
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Clarke was by many considered the best Canadian player during the 1972 summit series (your milage may vary).
Who would this be? Phil Esposito says hello

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08-29-2010, 10:12 PM
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Man wildly different opinions on how Clarke played internationally. Bringing up the international play was not unfair to Clarke it was just another place to show that Forsberg was really good and had quite a string of games in both international and Swedish play were he performed very well over time.

I guess some of us will just agree to disagree but I will take Foppa over Clarke given the entirety of their careers and this even includes Foppas injuries.

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08-30-2010, 12:35 AM
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Man wildly different opinions on how Clarke played internationally. Bringing up the international play was not unfair to Clarke it was just another place to show that Forsberg was really good and had quite a string of games in both international and Swedish play were he performed very well over time.
Clarke had a chance to participate in only one, and the first all-time best-vs-best tournament, which his team won. No olympics for the pros (bar the Soviets), even the weaker WC's were open for NHL players missing playoffs only after 76 and Flyers usually had rather deep playoff runs even after that, barring Clarke from participating.

Forsberg had 5 best-vs-best tournaments, 96, 98, 04, 06, 10. Of which he won 1. In addition numerous WC's and the olympics in 94 (although it was not best-vs-best).

I can't really penalize Clarke as he simply was not able to participate in international competition as much as Forsberg and when he did in the highest possible level for all participants, his team won.

It should be quite clear that Clarke was much better defensively, evidenced by how few goals were scored against his team when he was on the ice. Offensively and per-game basis Forsberg has the edge, but the edge is small, their best seasons offensively virtually even, and any offensive edge Forsberg has is also offset by his weaker durability over full seasons.

Forsberg has more impressive playoff numbers, but when their teams actually won Stanley Cup, 74, 75 and 96, 01 (Forsberg injured), Clarke was definitely bigger factor for his team in both, offensively and defensively, however you wish to compare their victory runs. Colorado was able to win without Forsberg in lineup, I don't think Philadelphia would have without Clarke.

When their teams didn't win, Forsberg has the offensive edge but if Clarkes defence was anywhere near his regular season play, I don't think playoffs close the gap between the players nearly enough, if at all.

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08-30-2010, 03:11 PM
  #171
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I'm maybe soon in the 'flogging a dead horse' area, but I wanted to also check Rick MacLeish's stats from the 1974, 1975 and 1980 Stanley Cup finals (he missed 1976). MacLeish might have been a "playoff monster", but as far as outperforming Clarke when it mostly mattered, well, it doesn't really show in the stats (again, thanks to the Hockey Summary Project):

1974 against the Bruins he had 5 (2+3) points to Clarke's 6.

1975 against the Sabres he had 4 (1+3) to Clarke's 5.

1980 against the Islanders he had 6 (3+3) to Clarke's 7.

So, every time Clarke beat him in points. I do realize that there were other playoff games than just the finals, and there MacLeish definitely has a slight edge in numbers on Clarke (when both were in their primes in the mid-seventies)... but only slight.

Yep, MacLeish, like Clarke, was also more than just about statistics, and he was clearly the better skater and more exciting player, but did he really outshine Clarke in those years? IMO the stats give only little support of this, and it's hard for me to think that MacLeish actually did MORE things on the ice than Clarke...

Just needed to get that out of my system. Sorry.


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08-30-2010, 10:04 PM
  #172
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I'm maybe soon in the 'flogging a dead horse' area, but I wanted to also check Rick MacLeish's stats from the 1974, 1975 and 1980 Stanley Cup finals (he missed 1976). MacLeish might have been a "playoff monster", but as far as outperforming Clarke when it mostly mattered, well, it doesn't really show in the stats (again, thanks to the Hockey Summary Project):

1974 against the Bruins he had 5 (2+3) points to Clarke's 6.

1975 against the Sabres he had 4 (1+3) to Clarke's 5.

1980 against the Islanders he had 6 (3+3) to Clarke's 7.

So, every time Clarke beat him in points. I do realize that there were other playoff games than just the finals, and there MacLeish definitely has a slight edge in numbers on Clarke (when both were in their primes in the mid-seventies)... but only slight.

Yep, MacLeish, like Clarke, was also more than just about statistics, and he was clearly the better skater and more exciting player, but did he really outshine Clarke in those years? IMO the stats give only little support of this, and it's hard for me to think that MacLeish actually did MORE things on the ice than Clarke...

Just needed to get that out of my system. Sorry.
I'll jump in with this one. MacLeish did score the Cup winning goal in 1974 - the only goal of that game. He did come up big when it mattered. Not to mention other times like the Soviet/Flyers game. I don't think even if a person felt MacLeish outperformed Clarke in the three long playoff runs he was a a part of (1974, '75, '80) that it would be an insult to Clarke either. MacLeish brought it back then and I think injuries cost him a chance at the HHOF

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08-31-2010, 12:09 AM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'll jump in with this one. MacLeish did score the Cup winning goal in 1974 - the only goal of that game. He did come up big when it mattered. Not to mention other times like the Soviet/Flyers game. I don't think even if a person felt MacLeish outperformed Clarke in the three long playoff runs he was a a part of (1974, '75, '80) that it would be an insult to Clarke either. MacLeish brought it back then and I think injuries cost him a chance at the HHOF
No, it's not an insult, it's all good But I still think Clarke was excellent in that game too (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...19586880838682). Especially in the 3rd period, where even Orr and the Bruins' powerplay are rendered ineffective, no little thanks to "Clarkie". Esposito got measly 3 points in the series. Gilbert Perreault only 2 points in 1975. Whether it was Parent, MacLeish, Clarke or even Shero who was the most responsible for that, I don't know.

Okay, that's my two cents on Clarke for now; I really can't even stand him as a person! Slowly but surely he has become one of my favourite players though...

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