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Putting Carter into Perspective

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Old
08-27-2010, 09:01 AM
  #176
Kuato
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Why do people refer to Carter as a 40 goal scorer....because he's done it once in his career?
It annoys Kuato as well. Because it makes him sound better than he really is and thus strengthens their point.

If anything, that 40-goal season was an anomaly, not the norm. Carter isn't "a 40-goal scorer", he scored 40 goals in a season, one time. There's a difference in what those two things mean.

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I still recall Holmgren when he fired Stevens saying that the Flyers (read Holmgren) "maybe overrated" the team a bit....well duh notwithstanding how the playoffs went he did overrate how important the loss of Knuble's and Lupul's production was and that Giroux and a college rookie would pick up the slack! We almost missed the playoffs as a result. This just shows how he is with judging the talent he has and which he's good at identifying as others have pointed out but when it comes to assembling a team (which includes the coach) that can be consistent in a long regular season he hasn't been exactly great. He's gotten away with it quite frankly despite himself. I'm hoping this year his deficiencies will be covered up even more by Lavy just b/c I don't want to see 3 years of excuses about not playing 60 mins of hockey but it remains to be seen.
Kuato agrees they overrated the team, but not making the PO's because of Knuble and Lupul being gone? It's a little deeper than that my friend.

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08-27-2010, 09:25 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Kuato View Post
It annoys Kuato as well. Because it makes him sound better than he really is and thus strengthens their point.

If anything, that 40-goal season was an anomaly, not the norm. Carter isn't "a 40-goal scorer", he scored 40 goals in a season, one time. There's a difference in what those two things mean.



Kuato agrees they overrated the team, but not making the PO's because of Knuble and Lupul being gone? It's a little deeper than that my friend.

Carter scored 33 goals this year, while having God awful production from his teammates, missing 8 games, and it could be argued that a number of his games he was coming back from niggly injuries.

Carter is a 40 goal scorer. Malkin scored only 77 points last year. Does that make him a 80 point player or a 100 point player?

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08-27-2010, 09:50 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Kuato View Post

Kuato agrees they overrated the team, but not making the PO's because of Knuble and Lupul being gone? It's a little deeper than that my friend.
They meaning Holmgren right?...

You are correct..it ran deeper than those two. They were a contributing factor though and that was kind of my point. Remember the massive scoring drought where Boucher was actually playing well and they didn' support him? There were way too many ebbs and flows to the team the last couple of years. Hopefully it ends.

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08-27-2010, 10:07 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Kuato View Post
It annoys Kuato as well. Because it makes him sound better than he really is and thus strengthens their point.

If anything, that 40-goal season was an anomaly, not the norm. Carter isn't "a 40-goal scorer", he scored 40 goals in a season, one time. There's a difference in what those two things mean.
I'm going to recap MY perspective on Carter


The title of this thread is Carter in PERSPECTIVE.....the thread is inviting people to post their varying perspectives. The thread is not about Carter in Perspective according to Jester only or DrDoom for that matter.

I started out my position in post 134 by asking why do people refer to Carter as a 40 goal scorer since he's only done it once.

Jester replied in post 135 that since he did it once he is by definition a 40 goal scorer. I said technically yes he is thus conceding that point and that PERSPECTIVE. I explained that a technicality is a formal point arising from a strict interpretation. Jester called this a byzantine definition yet it is a formal dictionary definition that is valid. I conceded to his formal point but he ridicules mine ....not surprising.

Following up his reply was Canadianflyer88 with post 137 where he says the following:

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In reality, Carter scored 40 goals in one season.

Just depends on your perspective but I believe a player can be called a '40-goal scorer' if he has, in fact, scored 40 goals in a season. Much like Cheechoo is a 50-goal scorer and Wayne Gretzky is a 90-goal scorer.

It'll take a couple more 40-goal seasons to be labelled a 'perennial 40-goal scorer' (obviously), though.
So Canadianflyer88 (now Kuato to an extent) recognizes the distinction I was basically implying between a 40 goal scorer in a technical sense and a perennial 40 goal scorer and states it's a matter of PERSPECTIVE which is in line with the theme of the thread. His PERSPECTIVE and not just MINE alone is that he would obviously prefer a perennial 40 goal scorer to a one hit wonder so far. He doesn't say why b/c it's kind of obvious why you would want a perennial consistent 40-50 goal scorer. They are invaluable and can be considered superstars, stars, All Stars, "very good" or whatever you want to refer to them. They are still better than a player that has done it once!

This perspective makes sense and is not a paper tiger argument as Jester referred to it. It's a PERSPECTIVE if one wants to look up the technical definition. By Jester saying "No one called him a "perennial" 40 goal scorer" thus my whole point is moot is a straw man argument as the point is not about whether somebody called him a perennial 40 goal scorer but whether from one's perspective it is better to have a player who scored 40 goals 1X in his career and has yet to prove himself as a perennial 40-50 goal scorer that merits an extremely high salary on a cap strapped team with other free agents that will need to be signed over one that is a perennial goal scorer in the LeClair and Kovalchuk mode. There may a UFA out there next year or even RFA worth the chance over Carter (if he's not traded out of necessity somewhere down the line). I mean if you average out Carter's 145 goals over the 5 seasons he has played he is technically a 30 goal scorer not a 40 goal scorer. If you take LeClair's first 5 seasons with the Flyers and discount his 6th season where he still scored 40 goals he averages out to be a 40 goal scorer. This is the kind of productivity from my perspective and I'm sure other's perspective that we would prefer to sink money into given our cap crunch next season. That again is the crux of the argument that Jester refuses to acknowledge b/c only his perspective apparently matters....some agree some don't. That is the nature of forums and debates...nothing more nothing less

Cheers....


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 08-27-2010 at 10:12 AM.
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Old
08-27-2010, 10:18 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Carter scored 33 goals this year, while having God awful production from his teammates, missing 8 games, and it could be argued that a number of his games he was coming back from niggly injuries.

Carter is a 40 goal scorer. Malkin scored only 77 points last year. Does that make him a 80 point player or a 100 point player?



Gretzky scored 92, no one calls him a 90 goal guy. Carter's upside is 40+ goals. I can't see why people have to lock him down to a 30 goal player. I'd say his healthy floor is no less than 28-30. He'll score 40 again in his career IMO.

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08-27-2010, 01:09 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Gretzky scored 92, no one calls him a 90 goal guy. Carter's upside is 40+ goals. I can't see why people have to lock him down to a 30 goal player. I'd say his healthy floor is no less than 28-30. He'll score 40 again in his career IMO.
Forget about trying to make a point with certain individuals on these boards. You could make your case till the cows came home and it still would have no bearing on those individuals. It almost makes me feel sorry for people who have so much hatred in their hearts that it clouds their judgment. Enjoy the great sport of hockey. Get busy living instead of getting busy dying

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08-27-2010, 01:19 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Forget about trying to make a point with certain individuals on these boards. You could make your case till the cows came home and it still would have no bearing on those individuals. It almost makes me feel sorry for people who have so much hatred in their hearts that it clouds their judgment. Enjoy the great sport of hockey. Get busy living instead of getting busy dying
You can make a case any way you want, it does not mean people cannot disagree with you and more specifically if they do have a girevance they can express it any way they want. On a lighter note, since when does moralizing have anything to do with an individuals passion for a game or team? It seems you have a pretty self-righteous attitude, it may come with your wealth of experience of how any individual should handle their own affairs but it reeks of a condescending attitude.

Maybe it should be you seeking the counseling and not attempting to give the counseling...

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08-27-2010, 01:44 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
You do not necessarily believe this do you? The difference between good players and great players are the intangibles, the things players do when no scoring goals, and by the hard work and strong play along the boards you will get chances and even better your linemates will score some goals or the screens set in front will cause traffic for rebounds, etc.

And yet this length and reach he rarely uses as a strength. Yes, long arms get you some extra reach but nothing more or less than what Giroux does with his positioning and ability to anticipate the play and pokecheck the play from behind. Carter is a highly talented player with all the tools you have said, but he needs to develop a little more of an edge to his game to reach the next level as a player and be more consistent. That is my commentary on the guy.
Why on earth would I take the time to write something if I didn't believe it.

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Old
08-27-2010, 01:55 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
Why on earth would I take the time to write something if I didn't believe it.
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
Exactly! It's like in tennis when you see a big player with a big wingspan coming up to the net, you know you have less room to make a passing shot or a lob. If you see a 6'3 player with long arms, good skating ability and a long stick, you know the passing lane has shrunk.

I don't care if he doesn't hit. He was drafted to score goals and his defensive game and face offs have really come around. We have other guys on the team who can hit, fight etc.
Because a guy has a large wingspan means nothing more than reach, but it also open up other aeras of his game where you can take advantage. For example, a guy with a big wingspan coming to the net I am aiming right at his chest or his feet. Carter may be able to use his stick to reach but this also will open up other areas. It can help on the reach, I agree, but a lot of guys on the ice with a long reach cannot defend as well as one of those pesky little guys who can skate with a shorter jump-step to cover more territory. I guess when you boil it all down both have their strengths and weaknesses, it depends how each player utilizes his tools in the toolbox.

This is where good scouting comes into play, which players you can expose their weaknesses.

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