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Hall of Fame Standards

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Old
08-29-2010, 10:07 PM
  #1
scribe114
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Hall of Fame Standards

Just reading through the threads and there have been some interesting discussions on who should be in the Hockey Hall of Fame and who shouldn't. I am a big Baseball fan as well and saw something in the original Bill James Baseball Abstract that could easily be adapted to the History of Hockey Board about the "Definition of a Hall of Famer" and the regular discussions here.

Definition A: A Hall of Famer is any player who could reasonably be argued to be the best ever at the position he played, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe Bobby Hull, Patrick Roy, Jaques Plante, Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey, Terry Sawchuk and Mario Lemeiux would be typical Hall of Famers at this level.

Definition B: A Hall of Famer is a player who is one of the greatest ever at the position he played. Such a player should be the dominant player at his position at the time he is active, with the exception of the rare occurrence of talent doubling up at a position, such as Gretzky and Lemieux or Howe and Richard. A Hall of Famer would ordinarily be the biggest star on the ice at almost any time. Such a player would ordinarily be the biggest star on a Stanley Cup Playoff caliber/Cup winning team. This definition would let into the Hall of Fame such players as: Jean Beliveau, Glenn Hall, Mark Messier, Ted Lindsay, Bobby Clarke, Denis Potvin, Nik Lidstrom, Ray Bourque, Brian Trottier, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, and Red Kelly.

Defintion C: A Hall of Famer is a player who is consistently among the best in the NHL at their position. Such a player would be the biggest star on their team unless it was a SC caliber team, in which case he would be regarded as one of the most valuable members of the team. This definition would make room in the HOF for players such as: Mike Bossy, Jarri Kurri, Paul Coffey (Could fall under Def B) Henri Richard, Bill Gadsby, Pierre Pilote, Ron Francis, Tim Horton, and Brad Park Tony Espositio, and Andy Bathgate.

Defintion D: A Hall of Famer is a player who rises well above the level of the average player, a player who would be capable of contributing to a playoff-caliber team and would be one of the outstanding players on an average team. This definition would make room in the Hall of Fame for such players as: Harry Howell, Kevin Lowe, Butch Goring, Claude Provost, John Tonelli, George Armstrong and Norm Ullman.

Most of the players were put there just to give an idea where they would fit in to a HOF discussion and feel free to disagree with any of the slatings to the benefit of good discussion. Some are left out of course, as this was an effort to give a guideline of what standards the HOF may be using to elect players.

Feel free to discuss, if this turns out to be a useful reference request that it be stickied. Working on antother one I may call "The McKenny List" since there was a good thread about Don McKenny for the Hall of Fame a few months back.

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08-29-2010, 10:13 PM
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Welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by scribe114 View Post
Just reading through the threads and there have been some interesting discussions on who should be in the Hockey Hall of Fame and who shouldn't. I am a big Baseball fan as well and saw something in the original Bill James Baseball Abstract that could easily be adapted to the History of Hockey Board about the "Definition of a Hall of Famer" and the regular discussions here.

Definition A: A Hall of Famer is any player who could reasonably be argued to be the best ever at the position he played, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe Bobby Hull, Patrick Roy, Jaques Plante, Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey, Terry Sawchuk and Mario Lemeiux would be typical Hall of Famers at this level.

Definition B: A Hall of Famer is a player who is one of the greatest ever at the position he played. Such a player should be the dominant player at his position at the time he is active, with the exception of the rare occurrence of talent doubling up at a position, such as Gretzky and Lemieux or Howe and Richard. A Hall of Famer would ordinarily be the biggest star on the ice at almost any time. Such a player would ordinarily be the biggest star on a Stanley Cup Playoff caliber/Cup winning team. This definition would let into the Hall of Fame such players as: Jean Beliveau, Glenn Hall, Mark Messier, Ted Lindsay, Bobby Clarke, Denis Potvin, Nik Lidstrom, Ray Bourque, Brian Trottier, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, and Red Kelly.

Defintion C: A Hall of Famer is a player who is consistently among the best in the NHL at their position. Such a player would be the biggest star on their team unless it was a SC caliber team, in which case he would be regarded as one of the most valuable members of the team. This definition would make room in the HOF for players such as: Mike Bossy, Jarri Kurri, Paul Coffey (Could fall under Def B) Henri Richard, Bill Gadsby, Pierre Pilote, Ron Francis, Tim Horton, and Brad Park Tony Espositio, and Andy Bathgate.

Defintion D: A Hall of Famer is a player who rises well above the level of the average player, a player who would be capable of contributing to a playoff-caliber team and would be one of the outstanding players on an average team. This definition would make room in the Hall of Fame for such players as: Harry Howell, Kevin Lowe, Butch Goring, Claude Provost, John Tonelli, George Armstrong and Norm Ullman.

Most of the players were put there just to give an idea where they would fit in to a HOF discussion and feel free to disagree with any of the slatings to the benefit of good discussion. Some are left out of course, as this was an effort to give a guideline of what standards the HOF may be using to elect players.

Feel free to discuss, if this turns out to be a useful reference request that it be stickied. Working on antother one I may call "The McKenny List" since there was a good thread about Don McKenny for the Hall of Fame a few months back.
Welcome to the history board. Impressive early contribution. Look forward to more.

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08-29-2010, 10:23 PM
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Welcome to the history board. Impressive early contribution. Look forward to more.
Thank you sir,

Been around the boards for about five years, I usually do more reading than posting.

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08-29-2010, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by scribe114 View Post
Defintion D: A Hall of Famer is a player who rises well above the level of the average player, a player who would be capable of contributing to a playoff-caliber team and would be one of the outstanding players on an average team. This definition would make room in the Hall of Fame for such players as: Harry Howell, Kevin Lowe, Butch Goring, Claude Provost, John Tonelli, George Armstrong and Norm Ullman.

Most of the players were put there just to give an idea where they would fit in to a HOF discussion and feel free to disagree with any of the slatings to the benefit of good discussion. Some are left out of course, as this was an effort to give a guideline of what standards the HOF may be using to elect players.

Feel free to discuss, if this turns out to be a useful reference request that it be stickied. Working on antother one I may call "The McKenny List" since there was a good thread about Don McKenny for the Hall of Fame a few months back.
Nice post. The first paragraph is interesting. I know that Goring, Lowe, Provost and Tonelli aren't in the HHOF. Armstrong and Howell are generally regarded as guys who are weak members but don't get a lot of flack against them either for being there. Ullman is a guy who I think stands out in that group, just found it interesting.

Other than that your post is pretty good, those players fit the bill as guys who belong to their perspective groups. I've never heard any push for a guy like Don McKenney though so I'd be interested to see why you think he belongs, if you do that is

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08-29-2010, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Other than that your post is pretty good, those players fit the bill as guys who belong to their perspective groups. I've never heard any push for a guy like Don McKenney though so I'd be interested to see why you think he belongs, if you do that is
Don't really think that McKenney belongs in the HOF, there is a poster here that has been following the Bruins here since the 50's and he started a thread plugging McKenney for enshrinement.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...light=mckenney

Bill James devised a checklist called the "Keltner List" back in 1985 based on a letter to him pushing for Ken Keltner's enshrinement into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Translated to Hockey this is what it would look like.

The McKenney List

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in Hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in Hockey?

2. Was he the best player on his team?

3. Was he the best player in Hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his Division/Conference at his position?

4. Did he have an impact on a number of Stanley Cup Playoffs?

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

6. Is he the very best Hockey player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win a Hart/Pearson Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star teams was he selected for? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the Stanley Cup?

14. What impact did the player have on Hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?


Can be pretty much used with any player to evaluate HOF pedigree. Will knock out a couple in a bit..


Last edited by scribe114: 08-30-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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08-30-2010, 02:51 AM
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``The McKenney List``:

Yes, Thank You for a most interesting post...I could add a few other guidelines such as a player`s career prior to his reaching the NHL...Junior, University, Europe, Minor league exploits...A player`s contributions to the sport after his playing days..Coach, Scout, Executive on various levels........A good idea to choose Don McKenney as the benchmark, guideline, canon, for the HOF process...As many pundits seem to place Him at, near or below the bar....Others, myself included, think otherwise.....Hopefully, further & continued discussions shall help remedy Mr. McKenney`s glaring omission...


Last edited by Axxellien: 08-30-2010 at 11:28 PM.
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08-31-2010, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scribe114 View Post
Just reading through the threads and there have been some interesting discussions on who should be in the Hockey Hall of Fame and who shouldn't. I am a big Baseball fan as well and saw something in the original Bill James Baseball Abstract that could easily be adapted to the History of Hockey Board about the "Definition of a Hall of Famer" and the regular discussions here.

Definition A: A Hall of Famer is any player who could reasonably be argued to be the best ever at the position he played, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe Bobby Hull, Patrick Roy, Jaques Plante, Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey, Terry Sawchuk and Mario Lemeiux would be typical Hall of Famers at this level.

Definition B: A Hall of Famer is a player who is one of the greatest ever at the position he played. Such a player should be the dominant player at his position at the time he is active, with the exception of the rare occurrence of talent doubling up at a position, such as Gretzky and Lemieux or Howe and Richard. A Hall of Famer would ordinarily be the biggest star on the ice at almost any time. Such a player would ordinarily be the biggest star on a Stanley Cup Playoff caliber/Cup winning team. This definition would let into the Hall of Fame such players as: Jean Beliveau, Glenn Hall, Mark Messier, Ted Lindsay, Bobby Clarke, Denis Potvin, Nik Lidstrom, Ray Bourque, Brian Trottier, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, and Red Kelly.

Defintion C: A Hall of Famer is a player who is consistently among the best in the NHL at their position. Such a player would be the biggest star on their team unless it was a SC caliber team, in which case he would be regarded as one of the most valuable members of the team. This definition would make room in the HOF for players such as: Mike Bossy, Jarri Kurri, Paul Coffey (Could fall under Def B) Henri Richard, Bill Gadsby, Pierre Pilote, Ron Francis, Tim Horton, and Brad Park Tony Espositio, and Andy Bathgate.

Defintion D: A Hall of Famer is a player who rises well above the level of the average player, a player who would be capable of contributing to a playoff-caliber team and would be one of the outstanding players on an average team. This definition would make room in the Hall of Fame for such players as: Harry Howell, Kevin Lowe, Butch Goring, Claude Provost, John Tonelli, George Armstrong and Norm Ullman.

Most of the players were put there just to give an idea where they would fit in to a HOF discussion and feel free to disagree with any of the slatings to the benefit of good discussion. Some are left out of course, as this was an effort to give a guideline of what standards the HOF may be using to elect players.

Feel free to discuss, if this turns out to be a useful reference request that it be stickied. Working on antother one I may call "The McKenny List" since there was a good thread about Don McKenny for the Hall of Fame a few months back.
I think I'd probably bump Bossy up into category B. Anyway, good definitions overall, though I think there perhaps should be a requirement for longevity in the lower categories. Not sure I'd want to make room in the HOF for Tonelli, Goring, and Lowe. Good players for sure, but not good enough for long enough.

Doug

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08-31-2010, 04:51 PM
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I was actually just thinking about this today. In my mind your second definition (B) is more or less what the HHOF should be using. I wish the HHOF was more exclusive. I know a bunch of questionable guys have already gotten in but can they not just make the standards tougher? I know some people would complain for a while that it is creating a double standard but the HHOF is going to be way to big at some point. There shouldn't be thousands of players honored.

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08-31-2010, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by scribe114 View Post
Don't really think that McKenney belongs in the HOF, there is a poster here that has been following the Bruins here since the 50's and he started a thread plugging McKenney for enshrinement.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...light=mckenney

Bill James devised a checklist called the "Keltner List" back in 1985 based on a letter to him pushing for Ken Keltner's enshrinement into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Translated to Hockey this is what it would look like.

The McKenney List

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in Hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in Hockey?

2. Was he the best player on his team?

3. Was he the best player in Hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his Division/Conference at his position?

4. Did he have an impact on a number of Stanley Cup Playoffs?

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

6. Is he the very best Hockey player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win a Hart/Pearson Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star teams was he selected for? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the Stanley Cup?

14. What impact did the player have on Hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?


Can be pretty much used with any player to evaluate HOF pedigree. Will knock out a couple in a bit..
I really like that list of questions. I've seen it answered for Peter Bondra somewhere on these boards and it totally put him in hall.

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08-31-2010, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
I really like that list of questions. I've seen it answered for Peter Bondra somewhere on these boards and it totally put him in hall.
What? No way.


1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in Hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in Hockey?

Not even close

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Sometimes

3. Was he the best player in Hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his Division/Conference at his position?

No

4. Did he have an impact on a number of Stanley Cup Playoffs?

No

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Yeah

6. Is he the very best Hockey player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Not even close

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

All player with 2 or more goalscoring titels except Bure are in the HHoF
Sadly that's the only point in favour of Bondra


8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Doubtful

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Worse

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

No

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win a Hart/Pearson Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

No never

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star teams was he selected for? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

None

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the Stanley Cup?

Very unlikely

14. What impact did the player have on Hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Important for Slovakian Hockey history

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Guess so

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08-31-2010, 09:10 PM
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When evaluating players' HOF credentials, I use a framework like this:


By thehockeyoutsider at 2010-08-31

This is only a partial evaluation because it focuses strictly on their on-ice play (which would correspond with "playing ability" in the HOF's definition).

Additional dimensions (sportsmanship, character and contributions to teams and/or the sport) should also be consider -- perhaps this could be under one category i.e. "legacy".

Note that I'm using this chart to illustrate the concept only. I put it together in 5 minutes and did not spend a lot of time thinking about the rankings. In other words: if you think I ranked a player too high or low on a certain category - maybe I did. If you don't like the rankings I sincerely encourage you to make your own chart.

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08-31-2010, 09:13 PM
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Nice! I'd like to do it with... Dino!

The Dino List

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in Hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in Hockey? NO

2. Was he the best player on his team? Yes, but not on a regular basis, and off the guys that were better than him, Stevie Y stands out as an HHOF, and that's it.

3. Was he the best player in Hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his Division/Conference at his position? No

4. Did he have an impact on a number of Stanley Cup Playoffs? No enough. Only one, really, and wasn't the best player on his team, and that said player isn't an HHOF (Bobby Smith). Was really young however.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime? Sortof, posted a decent season at 36.

6. Is he the very best Hockey player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame? No, even if we disregard Makarov and Mikhailov.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame? Dino is probably the worst 600 goals guy, but yes.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? See 7.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? Gritty, so in a sense, yes.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame? No, see question 6.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win a Hart/Pearson Trophy? If not, how many times was he close? Not at all.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star teams was he selected for? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame? He had two seasons who could have led to a AST berth. Ran into Bossy.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the Stanley Cup? No

14. What impact did the player have on Hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Some say he paved the way for the future, small grinders/tippers/crease guys.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider? Certainl not.


Can be pretty much used with any player to evaluate HOF pedigree. Will knock out a couple in a bit..[/QUOTE]

Now that I think of it... With only 5, 7, 8, 9 an 14... That's not a lot. And some of them are somewhat mitigated.

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08-31-2010, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
When evaluating players' HOF credentials, I use a framework like this:


By thehockeyoutsider at 2010-08-31

This is only a partial evaluation because it focuses strictly on their on-ice play (which would correspond with "playing ability" in the HOF's definition).

Additional dimensions (sportsmanship, character and contributions to teams and/or the sport) should also be consider -- perhaps this could be under one category i.e. "legacy".

Note that I'm using this chart to illustrate the concept only. I put it together in 5 minutes and did not spend a lot of time thinking about the rankings. In other words: if you think I ranked a player too high or low on a certain category - maybe I did. If you don't like the rankings I sincerely encourage you to make your own chart.

I agree with the chart

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08-31-2010, 09:55 PM
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14. What impact did the player have on Hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
Avery!

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08-31-2010, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
When evaluating players' HOF credentials, I use a framework like this:


By thehockeyoutsider at 2010-08-31

This is only a partial evaluation because it focuses strictly on their on-ice play (which would correspond with "playing ability" in the HOF's definition).

Additional dimensions (sportsmanship, character and contributions to teams and/or the sport) should also be consider -- perhaps this could be under one category i.e. "legacy".

Note that I'm using this chart to illustrate the concept only. I put it together in 5 minutes and did not spend a lot of time thinking about the rankings. In other words: if you think I ranked a player too high or low on a certain category - maybe I did. If you don't like the rankings I sincerely encourage you to make your own chart.
Awesome! I thought Bondra was kinda low as far as peak is concerned, but I didn't see your note afterwards.

We should set a game of darts with that.

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08-31-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
When evaluating players' HOF credentials, I use a framework like this:


By thehockeyoutsider at 2010-08-31

This is only a partial evaluation because it focuses strictly on their on-ice play (which would correspond with "playing ability" in the HOF's definition).

Additional dimensions (sportsmanship, character and contributions to teams and/or the sport) should also be consider -- perhaps this could be under one category i.e. "legacy".

Note that I'm using this chart to illustrate the concept only. I put it together in 5 minutes and did not spend a lot of time thinking about the rankings. In other words: if you think I ranked a player too high or low on a certain category - maybe I did. If you don't like the rankings I sincerely encourage you to make your own chart.
That is awesome! I love it.

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08-31-2010, 11:02 PM
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Someone with a stats background should actually do something with regression analysis and hypothesis testing to mathematically come up with the average requirements for being a HOFer.

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08-31-2010, 11:59 PM
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Someone with a stats background should actually do something with regression analysis and hypothesis testing to mathematically come up with the average requirements for being a HOFer.
"HHOF Monitor" ?

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09-01-2010, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by scribe114 View Post
Don't really think that McKenney belongs in the HOF, there is a poster here that has been following the Bruins here since the 50's and he started a thread plugging McKenney for enshrinement.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...light=mckenney

Bill James devised a checklist called the "Keltner List" back in 1985 based on a letter to him pushing for Ken Keltner's enshrinement into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Translated to Hockey this is what it would look like.

The McKenney List

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in Hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in Hockey?

2. Was he the best player on his team?

3. Was he the best player in Hockey at his position? Was he the best player in his Division/Conference at his position?

4. Did he have an impact on a number of Stanley Cup Playoffs?

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

6. Is he the very best Hockey player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win a Hart/Pearson Trophy? If not, how many times was he close?

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star teams was he selected for? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the Stanley Cup?

14. What impact did the player have on Hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?


Can be pretty much used with any player to evaluate HOF pedigree. Will knock out a couple in a bit..
I think this list needs to be era specific or take it into consideration as well.

For a couple of points it is a lot easier to be close to the top in a 6 team league than in a 30 team league but I understand the points (a huge fan of Bill James here)

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09-01-2010, 01:01 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Avery!
ya I thought of Avery too and always though this was one of the more questionable questions on Bill James original list.

It really favors earlier players and for no good reason IMO.

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