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Briere Ready to Carry Over Playoff Success

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Old
08-31-2010, 02:35 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So the Caps should take Backstrom off Ovechkin's line?

Briere is good for Carter... he puts some pace on his wing (someone that can keep up with him), as well as someone else that can control the puck (Carter did make some strides last year in giving up the puck and playing off of it). The entire offense was snakebit last year, and multiple people went through bad cold spells (Hartnell notably on that line).

Now, I don't have a problem with trying out the Briere line from the playoffs again... but that shouldn't be because there was something wrong with having him with Carter last year. However, I also would prefer Giroux in that spot anyway.
Carter and Ovechkin have very different skill sets. Carter relies solely on his skating and shooting ability. Not much else.

Ovechkin is capable of playing a finesse game, and he really has an underrated passing game. Him and Backstrom work so well because Backstrom is able to utilize all of Ovechkin's attributes so that he can be more effective. That said, obviously Ovechkin doesnt need Backstrom to score his goals. He did just fine without him.

Would Backstrom work that well with Carter? Probably not. Not all goal scorers need a playmaker.

I, too, dont think the Briere/Hartnell/Leino line will stick, but my point is that Briere is more useful setting someone up in the offensive zone, than breaking it out to Carter to skate in and score. We have lots of players who can do that job (Hartnell, Carcillo) then crash to the net for Carter's rebound. Briere doesnt complement Carter. He's not going to run to the net to do the dirty work. Could he rack up points playing with Carter? Yes. But so can a lot of other players.

In the end, chemistry is a very unpredictable thing. It's hard to pin point exactly what player can work well with others. In the case of Carter, I just think it would be a waste to put a very talented player like Briere or Giroux on his line when they wont have the opportunity to set up their attack.

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08-31-2010, 02:59 PM
  #77
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Carter and Ovechkin ain't so different offensively... Ovechkin is certainly better all-around offensively, but he's also a grip-it-and-rip-it forward. He's just doing it from the wing as opposed to the center spot, which is going to cause some differences (you get the puck at center more often than you do at wing).

Ovechkin would also score no matter who was out there with him... Zubrus being evidence of that.

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08-31-2010, 03:40 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter and Ovechkin ain't so different offensively... Ovechkin is certainly better all-around offensively, but he's also a grip-it-and-rip-it forward. He's just doing it from the wing as opposed to the center spot, which is going to cause some differences (you get the puck at center more often than you do at wing).

Ovechkin would also score no matter who was out there with him... Zubrus being evidence of that.
I do not know.. That just bothers me.. I guess you could make a case in terms of % or in terms of number of shots. If you decide to look at those two stats and if Carter shoots the puck 500 times he would become 50 goal scorer. bla bla bla Yes, maybe.

But in terms of wrist and slap shots, nose for the net, one on one moves, ability to play against top NHL d-men game after game, playoffs, maybe even skating speed and I am not even going to bring physicial play. If Carter is on PP no one really respect his shot, most of the time he loses the puck because he can not connect with a pass frustrating the **** out of me because he is not really under pressure.. Try not respecting Ovechkin on PP or when he is one on one against d-men. heh

Come on now.. I do believe you talking out of your ass there buddy. ain't so different when you close your eyes on everything else and count shots and compare %.


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08-31-2010, 03:55 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So the Caps should take Backstrom off Ovechkin's line?

Briere is good for Carter... he puts some pace on his wing (someone that can keep up with him), as well as someone else that can control the puck (Carter did make some strides last year in giving up the puck and playing off of it). The entire offense was snakebit last year, and multiple people went through bad cold spells (Hartnell notably on that line).

Now, I don't have a problem with trying out the Briere line from the playoffs again... but that shouldn't be because there was something wrong with having him with Carter last year. However, I also would prefer Giroux in that spot anyway.
Easy solution and possibly the best way to use what Laviolette has at this point. Zherdev can keep up with Carter. And yes my point is that given the skillsets and how Briere plays his game and is successful at it putting him with a likeminded player in Leino, given that he returns to his playoffs style of play, and a guy like Hartnell who plays the crease, it makes for more room for Briere to make plays and given our defense more chance at him being able to feed the points for open shots.

JvR-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Carcillo-Carter-Zherdev
Shelley-Betts-Laperriere

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08-31-2010, 03:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter and Ovechkin ain't so different offensively... Ovechkin is certainly better all-around offensively, but he's also a grip-it-and-rip-it forward. He's just doing it from the wing as opposed to the center spot, which is going to cause some differences (you get the puck at center more often than you do at wing).

Ovechkin would also score no matter who was out there with him... Zubrus being evidence of that.
Ovechkin has more tools in the toolbox, his one-timer is deadly while Carter has not really developed one into his repertoire, he relies pretty much on the wrist shot.

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08-31-2010, 05:37 PM
  #81
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I do not know.. That just bothers me.. I guess you could make a case in terms of % or in terms of number of shots. If you decide to look at those two stats and if Carter shoots the puck 500 times he would become 50 goal scorer. bla bla bla Yes, maybe.

But in terms of wrist and slap shots, nose for the net, one on one moves, ability to play against top NHL d-men game after game, playoffs, maybe even skating speed and I am not even going to bring physicial play. If Carter is on PP no one really respect his shot, most of the time he loses the puck because he can not connect with a pass frustrating the **** out of me because he is not really under pressure.. Try not respecting Ovechkin on PP or when he is one on one against d-men. heh

Come on now.. I do believe you talking out of your ass there buddy. ain't so different when you close your eyes on everything else and count shots and compare %.
If you take Jeff Carter, and improve every facet of his game... and move him to the wing... you have Ovechkin. Ovechkin plays the exact same style as Carter, he's just better (at everything) than Carter. He has a better shot (across the board -- though not by much on the wrist/snap shot front), he is a better passer, he's more physical, is a better one-on-one player than Carter... he's just better.

Ovechkin is the same type of player as Carter.

And to suggest teams don't respect Carter's shot... they absolutely respect his shot, you HAVE to because he's always *ing shooting.

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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Ovechkin has more tools in the toolbox, his one-timer is deadly while Carter has not really developed one into his repertoire, he relies pretty much on the wrist shot.
...so, pretty much what I said. Ovechkin is better, but they're the same type of player stylistically. Neither of 'em are really "finesse" players. They get the puck and they take it to goal.

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09-01-2010, 10:25 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you take Jeff Carter, and improve every facet of his game... and let him stay at center... you have Gretzky. Ovechkin plays the exact same style as Carter, he's just better (at everything) than Carter. He has a better shot (across the board -- though not by much on the wrist/snap shot front), he is a better passer, he's more physical, is a better one-on-one player than Carter... he's just better.

Ovechkin is the same type of player as Carter.

And to suggest teams don't respect Carter's shot... they absolutely respect his shot, you HAVE to because he's always *ing shooting.
But if you really improve every facet of Carter's game he can become 99 or #66?

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09-01-2010, 01:51 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
But if you really improve every facet of Carter's game he can become 99 or #66?
No, because he doesn't even remotely attempt to try and play like 'em.

Crosby and Ovechkin... both extremely talented offensive players. Do they play at all alike?

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09-01-2010, 01:57 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, because he doesn't even remotely attempt to try and play like 'em.

Crosby and Ovechkin... both extremely talented offensive players. Do they play at all alike?
Ovechkin and Carter are not similar players. It has nothing to do with the degree to which Ovechkin is a sniper.

What makes Ovechkin is the fact that he is so dynamic. He's capable of coming down and pulling a Carter, but he's also capable of powering wide around a defenseman, but he's also capable of dangling through a defenseman, but he's also capable of setting up an attack in he offensive zone with his linemates.

Carter is really only capable of coming down and firing a laser on net. And he is extremely effective at it, but to say he plays the same style as Ovechkin is just false. Ovechkin has so many more tools at his disposal which make him an easier player for a playmaker (Backstrom) to play with.

Carter needs to skate the puck up the ice to be effective. Ovechkin does not. He could just as easily throw it to his linemate to carry the puck, then follow the play up the ice. That is what Carter doesnt do, and that's why Carter is not really effected by better linemates. He plays the same exact way because his linemates arent able to display their full assortment of tools.

Carter is a headache for a playmaker to play with. I'm not even trying to discredit him, I actually think that's a positive thing. He is effective by himself. How many goal scorers are able to put up 40 goal seasons without a solid playmaker on their line?

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09-01-2010, 02:06 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Ovechkin and Carter are not similar players. It has nothing to do with the degree to which Ovechkin is a sniper.
They are. They're shoot first, second, and possibly third players. They both really thrive off of their wrist/snap shots, but Ovechkin supplements it with a better one-timer and slapper.

Quote:
What makes Ovechkin is the fact that he is so dynamic. He's capable of coming down and pulling a Carter, but he's also capable of powering wide around a defenseman, but he's also capable of dangling through a defenseman, but he's also capable of setting up an attack in he offensive zone with his linemates.
So you're saying Carter never tries to go wide on defenders? He does it all the *ing time.

So you're saying Carter never tries to go through defenders? He tries all the *ing time.

You're saying Carter never tries to set up an attack in the offensive zone? Seriously?

Carter does all the same stuff, he's just not as good at it as Ovehckin. Both of 'em are puck hog (yes, Ovechkin absolutely is a puck hog) shooters with a straight line mentality offensively.

Quote:
Carter is really only capable of coming down and firing a laser on net. And he is extremely effective at it, but to say he plays the same style as Ovechkin is just false. Ovechkin has so many more tools at his disposal which make him an easier player for a playmaker (Backstrom) to play with.
Ovechkin made Dainus Zubrus look like a friggin offensive All-Star, lets not make it out like there's some magic elixir for playmakers going on here. Ovechkin is just a generational talent and its a good thing to be on his line. Zubrus produced at .80 and .87 PPG while playing with Ovechkin... his career average is .51 PPG.

Quote:
Carter needs to skate the puck up the ice to be effective. Ovechkin does not. He could just as easily throw it to his linemate to carry the puck, then follow the play up the ice. That is what Carter doesnt do, and that's why Carter is not really effected by better linemates. He plays the same exact way because his linemates arent able to display their full assortment of tools.
So Carter can only reach the offensive zone with the puck on his stick? Seriously? Carter has spent his entire life playing center, not wing. He didn't develop as a hockey player getting used to playing on the wing without the puck... that's the ONLY difference you're noticing, and why he would need an adjustment period if you put him on the wing.

Do you really believe Ovechkin is going to play a different style with different linemates? Seriously...?

Quote:
Carter is a headache for a playmaker to play with. I'm not even trying to discredit him, I actually think that's a positive thing. He is effective by himself. How many goal scorers are able to put up 40 goal seasons without a solid playmaker on their line?
Ovechkin did no problem... cuz he plays pretty much the same game as Carter, just on the wing and is better at it.

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09-01-2010, 02:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ovechkin did no problem... cuz he plays pretty much the same game as Carter, just on the wing and is better at it.
I haven't been following this topic and I'm not extremely familiar with the Capitals lines, but I'm pretty sure Backstrom plays with Ovechkin and Backstrom is most definitely a playmaker.

That doesn't mean Ovechkin can't put up 40 goals on his own, because he definitely could and does. In fact, I think it's a really stupid argument to say that great players make other great players better. If you're a great player like Carter or Ovechkin then you're gonna put up points and goals regardless of who you're playing with.

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09-01-2010, 02:24 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They are. They're shoot first, second, and possibly third players. They both really thrive off of their wrist/snap shots, but Ovechkin supplements it with a better one-timer and slapper.
Correct. But Ovechkin not only supplements it with one timer+slapper, but he also supplements it with brute force and world class hands and pretty good vision.


Quote:
So you're saying Carter never tries to go wide on defenders? He does it all the *ing time.
How often does it work?

Quote:
So you're saying Carter never tries to go through defenders? He tries all the *ing time.
How often does it work?

I mean, how many highlight reel goals does Carter have? How many does Ovechkin have? Carter doesnt go through defenders. He may try to, but it is not his biggest skill. Shooting through defenders, on the other hand, he is much more effective at.

Quote:
You're saying Carter never tries to set up an attack in the offensive zone? Seriously?
Ovechkin's offensive zone attack includes his linemates more than Carter's does.


Quote:
Carter does all the same stuff, he's just not as good at it as Ovehckin. Both of 'em are puck hog (yes, Ovechkin absolutely is a puck hog) shooters with a straight line mentality offensively.
No. Carter tries to do all the same stuff as Ovechkin. Just because you attempt to do something outside of your skill set, does not mean it is a tool at your disposal.


Quote:
Ovechkin made Dainus Zubrus look like a friggin offensive All-Star, lets not make it out like there's some magic elixir for playmakers going on here. Ovechkin is just a generational talent and its a good thing to be on his line. Zubrus produced at .80 and .87 PPG while playing with Ovechkin... his career average is .51 PPG.
I never disputed this, nor did I ever say anything to suggest something against what you are arguing. You are completely missing my point. A playmaker works for Ovechkin because his skill set allows for Backstrom to supplement his game. A playmaker works for Carter, but is not necessary because playing with Carter does not allow for many plays to be made. Like you said, Carter is a straight line, then shoot player. There is no need for a playmaker. A guy like Ovechkin can crash to the net and bury in a pass from Backstrom on a regular basis. And if he doesnt have Backstrom on his line, then he can carry the puck himself. That's why Ovechkin is great. Because he can do everything offensively. Carter can not.


Quote:
So Carter can only reach the offensive zone with the puck on his stick? Seriously? Carter has spent his entire life playing center, not wing. He didn't develop as a hockey player getting used to playing on the wing without the puck... that's the ONLY difference you're noticing, and why he would need an adjustment period if you put him on the wing.
I'm not saying he can not do it, I am just saying he is most effective when he is carrying the puck. Otherwise, he is no more effective than your average forward. If you dont allow Carter to use his best skills (skating, shooting), then he is not as effective as he can be. That's what I am saying. Ovechkin on the other hand, has more "best skills" which allow for him to be effective in all situations with many different types of players.

Quote:
Do you really believe Ovechkin is going to play a different style with different linemates? Seriously...?
No. But he is capable of doing everything. That is my point. Do you think Zubrus was setting up goals for Ovechkin like Backstrom did? Hell no! Ovechkin had to make those goals himself. It's not a different "style". Ovechkin will always play like Ovechkin. But that doesnt mean he cant change the way he plays if you introduce a new player on his line. Ovechkin has the tools at his disposal to do that. And he did, in fact, do that when Backstrom came along.


Quote:
Ovechkin did no problem... cuz he plays pretty much the same game as Carter, just on the wing and is better at it.
False. It's not the same type of game at all.

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09-01-2010, 02:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I haven't been following this topic and I'm not extremely familiar with the Capitals lines, but I'm pretty sure Backstrom plays with Ovechkin and Backstrom is most definitely a playmaker.

That doesn't mean Ovechkin can't put up 40 goals on his own, because he definitely could and does. In fact, I think it's a really stupid argument to say that great players make other great players better. If you're a great player like Carter or Ovechkin then you're gonna put up points and goals regardless of who you're playing with.
Ah, I was referencing when Ovechkin was playing with Zubrus...

And playing with better players absolutely makes you a more productive player.

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No. Carter tries to do all the same stuff as Ovechkin. Just because you attempt to do something outside of your skill set, does not mean it is a tool at your disposal.
...Wait, so you're arguing against my claim that "Carter and Ovechkin play the same style" and your rebuttal is that Carter tries to do all the same stuff, but just doesn't have the tools to do it as well as Ovechkin?

Yeah, that was my point. They're the same stylistically, Ovechkin is just better across the board (and a wing, so it looks a bit differently).

Seriously, read your post. You're not arguing with me... you're just arguing Ovechkin is better, and don't see that as a higher-level of the same style of hockey. It is. Carter just isn't as good at it.

I mean, seriously, it's like saying a fastball pitcher who throws low 90s is a different style of pitcher than Roger Clemens just because he isn't as effective at it...

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09-01-2010, 02:42 PM
  #89
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...Wait, so you're arguing against my claim that "Carter and Ovechkin play the same style" and your rebuttal is that Carter tries to do all the same stuff, but just doesn't have the tools to do it as well as Ovechkin?

Yeah, that was my point. They're the same stylistically, Ovechkin is just better across the board (and a wing, so it looks a bit differently).

Seriously, read your post. You're not arguing with me... you're just arguing Ovechkin is better, and don't see that as a higher-level of the same style of hockey. It is. Carter just isn't as good at it.

I mean, seriously, it's like saying a fastball pitcher who throws low 90s is a different style of pitcher than Roger Clemens just because he isn't as effective at it...
Here is why they are not the same style of player.

If Ovechkin doesnt have a playmaker on his line, then he plays straight line, shoot the puck style hockey. Yes, similar to Carter. We saw this when Zubrus was on his line.

If Ovechkin DOES have a playmaker on his line, then he allows for that player to also carry the puck and actually input their own offensive creativity on the line.

If Carter doesnt have a playmaker on his line, then he plays straight line, shoot the puck style hockey.

If Carter DOES have a playmaker on his line, then he STILL plays straight line shoot the puck hockey which clashes with the other players creativity.

Carter doesnt have the creativity, hands or vision of an all around threat like Ovechkin, and that's why a playmaker is not effective if you ask him to set Carter up.

Ovechkin is an all around, dynamic offensive player while Carter is only a sniper with a laser of a wrist shot. You may say Ovechkin relies on his wrist shot, but suplements it with his one timer, but the fact is, Ovechkin has the hockey sense to play well alongside a skilled playmaker like Backstrom.

Ovechkin = All around offensive threat
Carter = Sniper

Is Ovechkin capable of being a sniper? Obviously. But that's not all he knows how to do, and that's why Backstrom works for him. He can do everything. Carter cant do everything.

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09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
  #90
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Here is why they are not the same style of player.

If Ovechkin doesnt have a playmaker on his line, then he plays straight line, shoot the puck style hockey. Yes, similar to Carter. We saw this when Zubrus was on his line.

If Ovechkin DOES have a playmaker on his line, then he allows for that player to also carry the puck and actually input their own offensive creativity on the line.
Ovechkin absolutely remains a straight line player... and he didn't possess the puck nearly as much as you seem to think he did pre-Backstrom. It's pretty much impossible to dictate puck possession from the wing just as a matter of practicality. He just gets more and better one-timer, etc. opportunities with this group than he did back in the day because he has a better group of players around him. Still the same animal.

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09-01-2010, 03:09 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ovechkin absolutely remains a straight line player... and he didn't possess the puck nearly as much as you seem to think he did pre-Backstrom. It's pretty much impossible to dictate puck possession from the wing just as a matter of practicality. He just gets more and better one-timer, etc. opportunities with this group than he did back in the day because he has a better group of players around him. Still the same animal.
Okay, Ovechkin is a straight line player when he has the puck. Fine. I think he has the ability to set up plays and break the puck out as well as enter the zone creatively, but for the sake of this discussion, I'll agree with you.

My point is when Backstrom has the puck, he has the ability to move to open space and find holes in the defense so he and Backstrom can set up plays and move towards the net. It's all about creativity and hockey sense.

If Backstrom was playing with Carter, would Carter have the hockey sense and creativity to get open so that they could move towards the net to create scoring chances? I dont think so.

In the offensive zone, Ovechkin is better at finding holes and openings in coverage when he doesnt have the puck. For Carter, he is not as capable of letting another player do the job. Most of Carter's goals come from individual efforts, whereas Ovechkin's game is more open to allowing a playmaker to set up a play for Ovechkin to then read.

They really are not similar players. I mean, Ovechkin can play similarly to Carter when he wants, but Carter can't play similarly to Ovechkin. He just doesnt think the same way.

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09-01-2010, 03:17 PM
  #92
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Okay, Ovechkin is a straight line player when he has the puck. Fine. I think he has the ability to set up plays and break the puck out as well as enter the zone creatively, but for the sake of this discussion, I'll agree with you.

My point is when Backstrom has the puck, he has the ability to move to open space and find holes in the defense so he and Backstrom can set up plays and move towards the net. It's all about creativity and hockey sense.

If Backstrom was playing with Carter, would Carter have the hockey sense and creativity to get open so that they could move towards the net to create scoring chances? I dont think so.

In the offensive zone, Ovechkin is better at finding holes and openings in coverage when he doesnt have the puck. For Carter, he is not as capable of letting another player do the job. Most of Carter's goals come from individual efforts, whereas Ovechkin's game is more open to allowing a playmaker to set up a play for Ovechkin to then read.

They really are not similar players. I mean, Ovechkin can play similarly to Carter when he wants, but Carter can't play similarly to Ovechkin. He just doesnt think the same way.


Ovechkin plays on the wing, so he's away from the puck more and looking for it. When he gets it... he does pretty much the same stuff with it. If you're a wing, you learn to play without the puck, which Carter hasn't had to do as much of... because as a center, he gets the puck more.

You're focusing on positional differences, not what the player himself is doing when they can make a play.

Ovechkin also just scores a lot of goals... ain't like his proportion of "individual effort" goals is small.

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09-01-2010, 04:01 PM
  #93
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Wrong thread


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09-01-2010, 04:03 PM
  #94
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Niemi signed in SJ, so the probability of this happening is 0%, compared to the 0% it was at before.
Yes, the probability of Briere carrying over his playoff success hinged on the Niemi signing

Wrong thread?

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09-01-2010, 04:08 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Yes, the probability of Briere carrying over his playoff success hinged on the Niemi signing

Wrong thread?
Indeed

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Old
09-01-2010, 04:14 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post


Ovechkin plays on the wing, so he's away from the puck more and looking for it. When he gets it... he does pretty much the same stuff with it. If you're a wing, you learn to play without the puck, which Carter hasn't had to do as much of... because as a center, he gets the puck more.

You're focusing on positional differences, not what the player himself is doing when they can make a play.

Ovechkin also just scores a lot of goals... ain't like his proportion of "individual effort" goals is small.
I wonder if Ovechkin would have one-timed that shot in which Carter got stoned on?

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Old
09-01-2010, 04:20 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I wonder if Ovechkin would have one-timed that shot in which Carter got stoned on?
I would wager yes.

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Old
09-01-2010, 04:27 PM
  #98
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Not this again...

Carter was not in a position to one time that puck. He was moving from south to north, you can not one time something from that position.

Ovechkin may have scored that only because he would have walked around Campbell, like Carter did, and shot it higher because of his enormous curve.

Niemi made a great play coming out to play the angle on that. Carter did all that he could.

As for your "positional differences" argument- well that's just way off. If you dont see that Ovechkin has much more offensive awareness than Carter, I cant help you. They are not similar players, and they think the game differently. Ovechkin, aside from having better hands and better strength has the better hockey mind. Ovechkin has a different kind of sense and a lot more creativity, both of which make him a different type of player than Carter.

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