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Old
09-01-2010, 09:54 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
sometimes i feel like he was the only guy on the team who had the ability to carry the puck into the offensive zone on power plays over the last two years. speaks volumes about his skating and stick handling ability (or alternatively on the general suckitude of our forwards). also probably the best hip checker in the league imo.
he's doesn't have great stickhandling ability at all. he IS a very, very good skater, tho. and yes, probably the best at throwing hip checks.

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Originally Posted by Gudbransson4Prez View Post
IMO he just got too aggressive at times... both rushing the puck and going for hits... both would lead to odd man breaks.. i think if he did have more smarts he'd be better, but he doesn't... I really don't know what CH is talking about. He's a good player, for sure.. But he just makes bonehead plays too often.
yes, but he doesn't. and you don't even need to watch him play, just listen to him. i like him. he's a good guy but he's a good role Dman, nothing more.

the things that stick in my mind are the completely unforced errors (like tape to tape passes to the opponent) in our end just about every game. those are not the fault of his teammates. there is always a safe play (ahem... glass) if you don't have support.

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09-02-2010, 09:59 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by whoisournextbure View Post
wow so when ur at a game and ballard throws a pass, you dont look at what happens after that, you just look at him and where he is on the ice after he passes?

ofc you have a better view if you're there, but when you watch tv you get to see what he actually does with the puck and I think thats more important than what he does when he lets it go....
but maybe thats just me
first para...no. i stop watching as soon as he lets it go because all i care about is talking Ballard up so when he lets go of it, my eyes automatically shut down on me.

second para...no. what he does/where he positions himself when he doesn't have the puck is as important as what he does when he has it.

Og, Squirrel, and all else-I'm sorry to come off as defensive as I see you as offensive, but I know what I saw/liked out of Ballard. I don't mean to tell you don't know what you're watching.
What I AM saying is that I liked him best for the foresight noticible to those who can see the whole rink...



lol we're shorthanded or I forgot a dot!

...but y'know? The cameraman shows Ballard passing then follow the camera up ice to catch the other team receive the puck....while the people in the building may have noticed OUR guy move from where the pass was going...

and no, he did NOT give the puck away in our zone just about every game. That was McCabe.


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09-02-2010, 10:12 AM
  #53
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Another example of conflicting perspectives...I know some will remember...

The game where Stillman made a blind pass while fighting along the boards to the point, where McCabe moved from and the opponent moved to take the pass, move up ice, and end the game.

Most of you saw Stillman pass it straight to their guy, placing blame on him. I saw McCabe moving from where he should've been, where Stillman thought he was.

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09-02-2010, 11:27 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 View Post
Another example of conflicting perspectives...I know some will remember...

The game where Stillman made a blind pass while fighting along the boards to the point, where McCabe moved from and the opponent moved to take the pass, move up ice, and end the game.

Most of you saw Stillman pass it straight to their guy, placing blame on him. I saw McCabe moving from where he should've been, where Stillman thought he was.
should've, schmould've. this game is not played stationary. sometimes there's a communication breakdown and a guy thinks he has a play but doesn't. the ice changes very quickly, mistakes happen all the time. i don't remember that particular play but maybe mccabe recognized it as a 2v1 up high and with the defensive F too high, thought he could cut to the net? that kinda stuff happens (though there are general rules coaches mention over and over again to help prevent those types of egregious breakdowns).

your diagram above really doesn't make any sense either. on a set breakout, a winger who has a support role would not vacate that spot to skate right into the forecheck. not unless the other forward was swinging to his spot and even that doesn't look like any type of real pattern as he would be skating right into a trap. lballard would have NO other play other than over to his partner. i think that's a bad example. in any case, these are not the types of plays i have issues with. if the puck makes it out of the zone, you at least get a reset. ballard too often was guilty of telegraphing his passes and having them intercepted in OUR end. we were keeping count here on the boards and there were at least a handful of games that turned on unforced turnovers by ballard. *at least*.

regarding your larger point, you have to keep in mind that many of us have been to hundreds of games and watched thousands of games on tv (some of us coach and play as well) and understand what's going on beyond the screen even when we don't see it.

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09-02-2010, 01:06 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
should've, schmould've. this game is not played stationary. sometimes there's a communication breakdown and a guy thinks he has a play but doesn't. the ice changes very quickly, mistakes happen all the time. i don't remember that particular play but maybe mccabe recognized it as a 2v1 up high and with the defensive F too high, thought he could cut to the net? that kinda stuff happens (though there are general rules coaches mention over and over again to help prevent those types of egregious breakdowns).
Every time Gretzky stopped behind the net...proved what a schmuck (your logic says) he was just by being stationary. Tell me what sense it makes to move from a good or open position (for the sole sake of moving???). MAAAAAAYYBE McCabe (blah blah blah more zeroG being argumentative for the sake of himself).
Maybe McCabe didn't look around to see if he was in fact the only player around and had no business moving forward AT ALL.
Or obviously don't remember the play, so just ....like.....admit the ignorance for once.
You saying 'that kinda stuff happens' to defend McCabe but not for Ballard is just showing your typical side.
Like mistakes are ok as long as it's a player YOU'RE defending!?! What a joke.

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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
your diagram above really doesn't make any sense either. on a set breakout, a winger who has a support role would not vacate that spot to skate right into the forecheck. not unless the other forward was swinging to his spot and even that doesn't look like any type of real pattern as he would be skating right into a trap. lballard would have NO other play other than over to his partner. i think that's a bad example. in any case, these are not the types of plays i have issues with. if the puck makes it out of the zone, you at least get a reset. ballard too often was guilty of telegraphing his passes and having them intercepted in OUR end. we were keeping count here on the boards and there were at least a handful of games that turned on unforced turnovers by ballard. *at least*.
LOL THERE'S THE CLASSIC OG "Something someone else said makes no sense"! What a character!
The diagram makes as much sense as the Panthers game play (even me forgetting a player lol.)
What doesn't make sense?
Supposed I included one more blue dot(his partner) and he passed it...what would his partner do with it?
...or the guy just didn't move accepted the pass and then, well...only YOU would know for sure what happens next, so I can't say.
The turnovers in his own zone? Didn't seem to be noticbly more (or less for that matter) than the others...but at least "we here on the boards" (you) kept accurate count. How many again? A handful? Nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
regarding your larger point, you have to keep in mind that many of us have been to hundreds of games and watched thousands of games on tv (some of us coach and play as well) and understand what's going on beyond the screen even when we don't see it.
I know, that's why you don't have to see something to tell the people who saw it how it REALLY is...because you can make an educated guess based on what you've seen happen before. Thank god you're here.
Difference between us? If I didn't see something, I find no shame in conceding(if I even had the guff you have to argue something I didn't see in the first place) to someone who did.


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09-02-2010, 01:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 View Post
Every time Gretzky stopped behind the net...proved what a schmuck (your logic says) he was just by being stationary. Tell me what sense it makes to move from a good or open position (for the sole sake of moving???). MAAAAAAYYBE McCabe (blah blah blah more zeroG being argumentative for the sake of himself).
Maybe McCabe didn't look around to see if he was in fact the only player around and had no business moving forward AT ALL.
Or obviously don't remember the play, so just ....like.....admit the ignorance for once.
You saying 'that kinda stuff happens' to defend McCabe but not for Ballard is just showing your typical side.
Like mistakes are ok as long as it's a player YOU'RE defending!?! What a joke.
it is. ballard made the same mistakes over and over. and mccabe doesn't have to look around to see if he's the only person at the point. he IS. holy ****. and that has no bearing on whether he can or can't move in and of itself. that's all situation-dependent. Dmen slide down into the O-zone all the time (in case you just started watching hockey).

Quote:
LOL THERE'S THE CLASSIC OG "Something someone else said makes no sense"! What a character!
The diagram makes as much sense as the Panthers game play (even me forgetting a player lol.)
What doesn't make sense?
Supposed I included one more blue dot(his partner) and he passed it...what would his partner do with it?
...or the guy just didn't move accepted the pass and then, well...only YOU would know for sure what happens next, so I can't say.
The turnovers in his own zone? Didn't seem to be noticbly more (or less for that matter) than the others...but at least "we here on the boards" (you) kept accurate count. How many again? A handful? Nice.
i'm sure there are plenty of others that remember when that count reached 5-6. maybe they'll chime in. perhaps you ducked out of the discussion at those most embarrassing moments?

Quote:
I know, that's why you don't have to see something to tell the people who saw it how it REALLY is...because you can make an educated guess based on what you've seen happen before. Thank god you're here.
Difference between us? If I didn't see something, I find no shame in conceding(if I even had the guff you have to argue something I didn't see in the first place) to someone who did.
i'll concede something i didn't see or was wrong about. but i'll make a fuss about something that doesn't make any sense to me if you don't provide any decent reasoning. and you haven't. sorry.

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09-02-2010, 03:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 View Post
first para...no. i stop watching as soon as he lets it go because all i care about is talking Ballard up so when he lets go of it, my eyes automatically shut down on me.

second para...no. what he does/where he positions himself when he doesn't have the puck is as important as what he does when he has it.

Og, Squirrel, and all else-I'm sorry to come off as defensive as I see you as offensive, but I know what I saw/liked out of Ballard. I don't mean to tell you don't know what you're watching.
What I AM saying is that I liked him best for the foresight noticible to those who can see the whole rink...



lol we're shorthanded or I forgot a dot!

...but y'know? The cameraman shows Ballard passing then follow the camera up ice to catch the other team receive the puck....while the people in the building may have noticed OUR guy move from where the pass was going...

and no, he did NOT give the puck away in our zone just about every game. That was McCabe.
there is no reason to keep on arguing with you, because I think u and I have a very different idea of hockey. I dont even want to waste my time pointing out things you've written in this post that makes very little sense to me, because there's a good selection of it so im just gonna be the better person and stop right here. You win. happy?

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09-03-2010, 09:05 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoisournextbure View Post
there is no reason to keep on arguing with you, because I think u and I have a very different idea of hockey. I dont even want to waste my time pointing out things you've written in this post that makes very little sense to me, because there's a good selection of it so im just gonna be the better person and stop right here. You win. happy?
Better person? For what? Taking a pot shot at me?

If you were a better person, you'd concentrate on the discussion instead of your dislike for a different opinion.

You find it a waste of time to debate points you don't agree with (there weren't that many points in the first place), but you don't think it's a waste of time to instead go off topic for a cheap shot?

If this is a winner/loser situation, it's because you just made it one. Unnecessary.
Stay on the conversation, or don't bother reading up in a place where a differnet opinion is going to show up (any forum).

...I didn't know I was arguing with you in the first place.

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09-03-2010, 09:18 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
it is. ballard made the same mistakes over and over. and mccabe doesn't have to look around to see if he's the only person at the point. he IS. holy ****. and that has no bearing on whether he can or can't move in and of itself. that's all situation-dependent. Dmen slide down into the O-zone all the time (in case you just started watching hockey)..
Wait...are you saying a defenseman doesn't have to look around to check on his positioning in relation to his mates?
Are you also saying that being the last defenseman back has no bearing on whether or not to pinch?
...oh, you said it's situation dependent. The situation was he was the only one between the other team and Vokoun, and he pinched...and they scored.
I just started wactching yesterday, there was a replay of the Phillies and Boston the other day, Philly scored in the 4th quarter to win.
So excuse my novice for asking for your advice on whether or not you think it's a good idea to a D-man to slide into the O-zone, not all the time, but in the particular situation that is being discussed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i'm sure there are plenty of others that remember when that count reached 5-6. maybe they'll chime in. perhaps you ducked out of the discussion at those most embarrassing moments? .
Nope, I was here defending him. <means what it shows, not "sarcasm" LOL

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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i'll concede something i didn't see or was wrong about. but i'll make a fuss about something that doesn't make any sense to me if you don't provide any decent reasoning. and you haven't. sorry.
So...did you or did you not see/remember the play? (I really didn't have to ask to know, I just want to see if you'll admit it here...)
What doesn't make sense? I'll try to explain it.

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09-03-2010, 04:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 View Post
Better person? For what? Taking a pot shot at me?

If you were a better person, you'd concentrate on the discussion instead of your dislike for a different opinion.

You find it a waste of time to debate points you don't agree with (there weren't that many points in the first place), but you don't think it's a waste of time to instead go off topic for a cheap shot?

If this is a winner/loser situation, it's because you just made it one. Unnecessary.
Stay on the conversation, or don't bother reading up in a place where a differnet opinion is going to show up (any forum).

...I didn't know I was arguing with you in the first place.
dude you responded to my comment, and I replied that its doesnt really matter and I dont see the point in arguing with someone who sees the game so differently than I do when there's really nothing to argue about..

Cheap shot? come on i was trying to bury this discussion?!?

about the "better person" thing, its a figure of speech (cant believe I am explaining this) my grandmother used to say to get me and my siblings to stop fighting. so I decided to drop the discussion and "be the better person".

now i ask you, dont reply to this because i dont want to spend more time on this.

the end.

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09-03-2010, 04:43 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by whoisournextbure View Post
dude you responded to my comment, and I replied that its doesnt really matter and I dont see the point in arguing with someone who sees the game so differently than I do when there's really nothing to argue about..

Cheap shot? come on i was trying to bury this discussion?!?

about the "better person" thing, its a figure of speech (cant believe I am explaining this) my grandmother used to say to get me and my siblings to stop fighting. so I decided to drop the discussion and "be the better person".

now i ask you, dont reply to this because i dont want to spend more time on this.

the end.
If you didn't want him to reply to your last post, it would have been a good idea not to end the post with a haughty question. And I think you misunderstood what your grandmother meant by be the better person.

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09-03-2010, 06:34 PM
  #62
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If you didn't want him to reply to your last post, it would have been a good idea not to end the post with a haughty question. And I think you misunderstood what your grandmother meant by be the better person.
who the duck are you

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09-03-2010, 07:08 PM
  #63
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who the duck are you
The duck who didn't see you being the better man.

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09-03-2010, 09:55 PM
  #64
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Florida fans, this is what Grabner could be in the future. Whether he will be is a tossup. He is very inconsistent and injuries have hampered his development.
watching this just made me miss Grabner all over again.


he's going to be a good one in Florida, if you can find the right playmaking centerman to work with him.

i think beyond just Grabner's pure speed, it's his acceleration that will stun you. he has the ability to pull away from people from a dead stop, and make it look like they're standing still. and his wrist shot is an absolute laser as seen in this clip. he will hit more post than you could ever imagine though.

man i really hope Ballard is worth it.

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09-04-2010, 09:26 AM
  #65
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sigh. i'll continue to bite. i can't help myself, even tho i'm arguing with someone who called for a strategy that had an enforcer to play on the 1st line and stand in front of the net.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 View Post
Wait...are you saying a defenseman doesn't have to look around to check on his positioning in relation to his mates?
Are you also saying that being the last defenseman back has no bearing on whether or not to pinch?
...oh, you said it's situation dependent. The situation was he was the only one between the other team and Vokoun, and he pinched...and they scored.
I just started wactching yesterday, there was a replay of the Phillies and Boston the other day, Philly scored in the 4th quarter to win.
So excuse my novice for asking for your advice on whether or not you think it's a good idea to a D-man to slide into the O-zone, not all the time, but in the particular situation that is being discussed.
the game is all about your positioning relative to teammates. it's called support. and it sounds like mccabe was playing off of that to try to create something. it's not a pinch, though, it's a cut - he wasn't trying to cut off an exit play, he was driving to the net. in a pinch situation, the weak side D usually pulls back to cover the middle but on the PP, you see Dmen cutting to the net all the time. it's usually from the weakside and not off a strong side 2v1 high, which it sounds like you are describing but they do it with nobody behind them. it's not wrong.

Quote:
So...did you or did you not see/remember the play? (I really didn't have to ask to know, I just want to see if you'll admit it here...)
What doesn't make sense? I'll try to explain it.
i don't remember the play with mccabe. i'm going off of your description - stillman on the half wall and mccabe up top. that play (2v1 high) happens all the time on the PP. i can imagine a scenario where the defender overplays the high pass but doesn't take away the lane to the net and mccabe went for it. doesn't happen all the time but it's not wrong. show me the video and i'll reconsider.

but this is about ballard, and you can't blame teammates, *no matter what they did or didn't do* for ballard consistently turning the puck over exiting the zone. there's absolutely no way. regardless of how much your support ****s up, you have the responsibility to at least get a clear and that should always be possible using the glass or with a high lob into the neutral zone. ballard consistently made dumb plays trying to force the issue.

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09-04-2010, 04:59 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
watching this just made me miss Grabner all over again.


he's going to be a good one in Florida, if you can find the right playmaking centerman to work with him.

i think beyond just Grabner's pure speed, it's his acceleration that will stun you. he has the ability to pull away from people from a dead stop, and make it look like they're standing still. and his wrist shot is an absolute laser as seen in this clip. he will hit more post than you could ever imagine though.

man i really hope Ballard is worth it.
Thats OK, we are used to that from Horton so he will fit right in!

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09-08-2010, 02:35 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
sigh. i'll continue to bite. i can't help myself, even tho i'm arguing with someone who called for a strategy that had an enforcer to play on the 1st line and stand in front of the net.
Oh come on! Because there's never been a successful tough guy up front???
I'll continue to argue, I mean debate, this one all day sir!


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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
the game is all about your positioning relative to teammates. it's called support. and it sounds like mccabe was playing off of that to try to create something. it's not a pinch, though, it's a cut - he wasn't trying to cut off an exit play, he was driving to the net. in a pinch situation, the weak side D usually pulls back to cover the middle but on the PP, you see Dmen cutting to the net all the time. it's usually from the weakside and not off a strong side 2v1 high, which it sounds like you are describing but they do it with nobody behind them. it's not wrong.
It wasn't an OT goal, it was a tying goal that led to the loss. I don't have the time to find it yet, but I will try to later for sure..it would definately help!
He didn't have support, his D partner and Stillman were tied up along the boards between blue line and top circle, the other two were loafing (one a few feet away on the boards and the other by the inner bottom of the circle), McCabe was the only one I remember to be anywhere near his side of the ice and as far back.
If I'm not mistaking, he started the cut while they were still fighting for the puck, and when he cut toward the net, the other guy picked up on it and got lucky.
With nobody to cover him, best case scenario is McCabe could've gotten lucky.

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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i don't remember the play with mccabe. i'm going off of your description - stillman on the half wall and mccabe up top. that play (2v1 high) happens all the time on the PP. i can imagine a scenario where the defender overplays the high pass but doesn't take away the lane to the net and mccabe went for it. doesn't happen all the time but it's not wrong. show me the video and i'll reconsider.
When I find the vid, you'll see. I imagine in your described scenario, the defender would see if there's someone available to cover the point.

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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
but this is about ballard, and you can't blame teammates, *no matter what they did or didn't do* for ballard consistently turning the puck over exiting the zone. there's absolutely no way. regardless of how much your support ****s up, you have the responsibility to at least get a clear and that should always be possible using the glass or with a high lob into the neutral zone. ballard consistently made dumb plays trying to force the issue.
True AND untrue. If your teammates don't move to be open...
That's almost like saying a goalie can't blame anyone because he's the last line of defense. (Though I hate it, there's too much truth in that as well)
...but in a team game...
I'm not saying I haven't seen him put em off the other guy's shins, but not as consistently as you make it out to be, certainly not closer to being as emptyheaded as the other D-men on this team.

As for trying to force the issue, that may have been his downside. Not because he isn't smart as you say, but because he was trying to push those teammates to do something they couldn't do...create a strong rush with him. (Those plays- you're looking at him and saying 'what are you doing????'...I'm probably looking at the other guys in all areas (pictured and not pictured) saying 'what are you doing?? MOVE!!!!')
You see Ballard, puckhandler on tv usually letting view of 1/3 of the ice at a time, give it to someone and wonder why...and I can easily understand why...especially since you are left using your better hockey judgement to guess where ALL of his options were at the time of judgement...the problem with that is, there's no logic in the system DeBoer doesn't have and you can't guess where the off-camera guys(unseen options) are going to be, when they themselves don't even know where they're supposed to be!

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09-08-2010, 02:35 PM
  #68
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The duck who didn't see you being the better man.
It's ok, truce accepted, no one ending up better than the other.

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09-09-2010, 03:21 AM
  #69
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Here's my take on Bernier and Grabner.

Bernier
I'm actually a fan of Bernier and one of the few Canucks fan (only one?) who would rather trade Grabner first before trading Bernier. He hasn't been worth his cap hit, but he's definitely not as bad or as frustrating of a player as some Canucks fans would have you believe. The thing is that Bernier has thus far failed to find his niche. When placed in an offensive role he tries to be a top 6 forward and plays more of a finesse game and when he's placed on a checking line he tries to be a physical presence but almost forgets what to do in the offensive zone. In other words, he lacks a bit of confidence in his offensive game and I think he's trying too hard. The fact that the Canucks play more of a puck possession game hurts Bernier as well. Bernier is not good in transition and definitely should not be handling the puck.

What Bernier does give you is an attractive skillset. How many guys have his size, physicality, speed, and shot? There's never too many. Bernier at his best can be a 2nd tier powerforward who scores 20+ goals. At worst he can physical force on your third line who can chip in offensively and play an offensive role when needed. He just needs to decide what type of player he wants to be. He definitely works hard and has been rather effective the past two playoff seasons. He actually has good straight-ahead speed once he gets moving but he has slow feet and bad footwork. Bernier has a hard and accurate shot and a quick release. He does a decent job of scoring garbage goals -- tipping in pucks and scoring goals of rebounds and loose pucks in front of the net. What he's not good at is one-timing cross-ice passes. That's where all the "Bernier misses many scoring opportunties" mostly come from. He didn't fit in well with the Sedins because the Sedins need a teammate who can convert their passes. Sedins are awesome at finding their teammate at almost the precise moment he becomes completely open and all you have to do is be ready and have your stick in the right position and direct it in. Bernier was horrible at it. And of course, his slow feet and average hockey sense also prevents him from getting into good scoring positions although he's not that bad at getting open in the slot area. The reality is that living up to the powerforward billing is incredibly hard. How many powerforwards manage to consistently score 30+ goals? 20+ goals? While still playing a powerforward-like game?

Grabner
I had a chance to watch him a few times in junior. To me, Grabner lacks star quality and is one of those guys where if he doesn't score close to 30 goals, he'll ended up being traded sooner or later once his upside is gone because he doesn't bring much else. But Grabner is a goal scorer who should easily be a 20+ goal scorer in the NHL given a consistent top 6 role. I think the trade to Florida might be the best thing for him because he needs a genuine opportunity to establish himself as a top 6 player in the NHL (an opportunity he has never gotten with the Canucks).

Everyone has talked about Grabner's speed. Yes he's fast. He also has a very good shot. I think his slap shot is underrated. I wouldn't say he has great hockey sense, but he knows where to be in the offensive zone and senses scoring opportunities. Grabner finds a way to score and does not need a good playmaker. I'm not even sure if a good playmaker would help Grabner all that much since Grabner never played with a good playmaker.

Grabner has a great attitude, works hard, and never complains. He is not afraid to go to the corners even though he doesn't win too many 1 on 1 battles in the corners and he's not afraid to take the puck to the net or stand in front of the net. In fact, Grabner likes to be around the net and can put the puck home down low. With that said, Grabner is not Brett Hull. His one-timers and in-close finishing abilities aren't that good. But in the offensive zone and with the puck on his stick, he is dangerous when he finds room to get his shot off.

Grabner can score in transition but he's not a good puckhandler so you don't want him carrying the puck up ice. He doesn't get too many assists because quite frankly he's not a playmaker, but he's not selfish. In junior he would play the point on the PP and most of the time he would be looking to set up his teammates. He does have a tendency to float around and he can completely disappear in some games but he's worked at being consistent. Like most goal scorers, expect some nights where he just does nothing. Early on he was criticized for disappearing when games got physical, but I think that has more to do with Grabner being a streaky player and a lack of strength rather than a fear of contact. Grabner has definitely gotten stronger, allowing him to fight off checks more frequently.

This is just my opinion of course. In my mind, Bernier is a guy where his true value will likely exceed his production while Grabner's production will likely exceed his true value.

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