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Old
09-03-2010, 12:30 AM
  #201
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Good to see Bettman got something right.

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09-03-2010, 12:50 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Actually the Pronger contract is not circumvention because it is not circumvention.

Circumvention occurs when the cap charge of a player's contract (the full salary divided by the number of years on the contract) is not paid in full. Thus the only real means of circumvention are retirement and LTIR.

Since you can't really fake LTIR, that leaves retirement, and if Pronger retires, nothing changes for his team except they need to fit another roster player in his place.

So yeah, Pronger's contract was never and could never be cap circumvention.

That's why the NHL's decision should not come as a shock.
While I strongly agree that the Pronger deal should not be revisited and deregistered I say that it is a circumvention of parts of the CBA. Where the Flyers look like they are not in the same category as the others is that the Flyers, as you state will not be let off the hook at a point where the player can no longer perform and does not to play any longer, looks at the relatively low capital going into his bank account and says, "Hell why bother? I'm hanging them up".

The Flyers still get the per year Cap break and Pronger still gets a big wad of money from the contract... And it may actually be a fair per year pay if he does tail off... There is also a strong chance that Pronger can go LTIR like Rathje and in a more comparable case, Hatcher... It may come to a point where his body can't take it any longer and how can medical experts demand a person has to play when his body cannot perform without pain? Many players play in pain in their younger and healthier years. If with two years left Pronger doesn't want to go through what a professional hockey player must do to play, he could probably be LTIR'd.

Where the circumvention comes into play is that an NHL team is not supposed to get a lower yearly Cap hit by manipulating the contract as they did... the only difference is that they are being held accountable due to his 35+ status... The Flyers could gain back the Cap space in the later years even if not by the LTIR by sweetening the pot in a deal where a team with an intended under Cap situation if they want to take on the Cap hit and low cash output and are given draft choices or prospects as kickers... They get Pronger to ride the press-box and pay low salary and get a 2nd and/or third pick or a couple decent AHL players for their trouble while the Flyers get a very low draft pick or an AHL player that the other team doesn't want and more importantly also get to replace Pronger with an almost $5M player... That to me is circumvention, but not as blatant as the other teams that can just let a player retire and pay him as a scout or give him a gold watch and shake his hand as he walks away to be with his wife and kids full time.

I would bet that the next CBA addresses Pronger type contracts also.

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09-03-2010, 06:40 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
While I strongly agree that the Pronger deal should not be revisited and deregistered I say that it is a circumvention of parts of the CBA. Where the Flyers look like they are not in the same category as the others is that the Flyers, as you state will not be let off the hook at a point where the player can no longer perform and does not to play any longer, looks at the relatively low capital going into his bank account and says, "Hell why bother? I'm hanging them up".

The Flyers still get the per year Cap break and Pronger still gets a big wad of money from the contract... And it may actually be a fair per year pay if he does tail off... There is also a strong chance that Pronger can go LTIR like Rathje and in a more comparable case, Hatcher... It may come to a point where his body can't take it any longer and how can medical experts demand a person has to play when his body cannot perform without pain? Many players play in pain in their younger and healthier years. If with two years left Pronger doesn't want to go through what a professional hockey player must do to play, he could probably be LTIR'd.

Where the circumvention comes into play is that an NHL team is not supposed to get a lower yearly Cap hit by manipulating the contract as they did... the only difference is that they are being held accountable due to his 35+ status... The Flyers could gain back the Cap space in the later years even if not by the LTIR by sweetening the pot in a deal where a team with an intended under Cap situation if they want to take on the Cap hit and low cash output and are given draft choices or prospects as kickers... They get Pronger to ride the press-box and pay low salary and get a 2nd and/or third pick or a couple decent AHL players for their trouble while the Flyers get a very low draft pick or an AHL player that the other team doesn't want and more importantly also get to replace Pronger with an almost $5M player... That to me is circumvention, but not as blatant as the other teams that can just let a player retire and pay him as a scout or give him a gold watch and shake his hand as he walks away to be with his wife and kids full time.

I would bet that the next CBA addresses Pronger type contracts also.
Why not? Salary cap figures are AAV, and there is every reason in the world if you're a player to want your contract front-loaded (money in your pocket) as opposed to evenly distributed, or back-loaded. The only problem with front-loaded contracts is when it takes a player to a fishy age where retirement nixes the remaining years of the deal and thus means that the team paid out more than the AAV they were charged against the salary cap while the player was playing.

You mention a possible trade... that's an issue with a TRADE, not the contract itself.

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09-03-2010, 06:43 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
So....um....I have a lot more respect for the NHL and Gary than I did before this off season. I'm impressed.

The Pronger contract is difficult to explain as to why it's not circumvention. But basically, the average of what Pronger's contract actually provides us, will ultimately be worth $4.9M. We get the really good discount years in the first 5, but then we get the really ****** 2 years at the end. That's why the cap hit is calculated by the average of the contract. With the Hossa deal (and all the other cap circumventers), they will only get Hossa for the duration of the discount years, then not be forced to put up with the consequences later.

Good on Gary.
You shouldn't, it's merely further evidence that they're a bunch of jackass morons. Everyone and their mother noted the obvious problem with the Hossa contract, and they've responded a full year (and SC win) later. That's gross incompetence if they actually have a problem with Hossa's deal.

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09-03-2010, 08:55 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You shouldn't, it's merely further evidence that they're a bunch of jackass morons. Everyone and their mother noted the obvious problem with the Hossa contract, and they've responded a full year (and SC win) later. That's gross incompetence if they actually have a problem with Hossa's deal.
Agreed, but at least they are finally doing something about these contracts.

It obviously should have gotten done before, though.

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09-03-2010, 10:19 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Thank God Pronger is okay.

Something Holmgren didn't **** up.
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

in fact this is the worst contract in phila sports history. it was negotiated with a player on the last year of a contract for whom you had just given up 3 first round picks and a top 6 forward.

review any sport, to see if you can find a trade where a team gave up a overpayment for a player on the last year of a contract and did not have a new contact in place. when the phillies traded for halliday they had contract before the trade was made.

pronger was hinting after the trade he would like to finish his career in st louis. it was all over hockeybuzz with the st louis bloggers. can you imagine the reaction of the flyers fans if holmgren had given up that much and could not resign the player. holmgren was in a bad situation and had no leverage to negotiate with pronger. on top of that, he did not realize that the flyers would be liable for all years of a contract because he did not undrstand the cba rules on contracts. he had to give a 35yr old player a 7 year contract with a 5 million dollar cap hit that could not come off the books.

if you review players, how many 38 year old players are still 5 million dollar players.
i do not care how well pronger takes care of himself, after 35 yrs old, you start losing it. a knee today, a shoulder tommorrow. the flyers in 2 years when pronger is 38, theywill be paying him against their cap and will be deeper in cap hell then they are now.

if i were the flyers, i would hope the league would void pronger's contract and allow the team to get a more friendly cap contract

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09-03-2010, 10:21 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

in fact this is the worst contract in phila sports history. it was negotiated with a player on the last year of a contract for whom you had just given up 3 first round picks and a top 6 forward.

review any sport, to see if you can find a trade where a team gave up a overpayment for a player on the last year of a contract and did not have a new contact in place. when the phillies traded for halliday they had contract before the trade was made.

pronger was hinting after the trade he would like to finish his career in st louis. it was all over hockeybuzz with the st louis bloggers. can you imagine the reaction of the flyers fans if holmgren had given up that much and could not resign the player. holmgren was in a bad situation and had no leverage to negotiate with pronger. on top of that, he did not realize that the flyers would be liable for all years of a contract because he did not undrstand the cba rules on contracts. he had to give a 35yr old player a 7 year contract with a 5 million dollar cap hit that could not come off the books.

if you review players, how many 38 year old players are still 5 million dollar players.
i do not care how well pronger takes care of himself, after 35 yrs old, you start losing it. a knee today, a shoulder tommorrow. the flyers in 2 years when pronger is 38, theywill be paying him against their cap and will be deeper in cap hell then they are now.

if i were the flyers, i would hope the league would void pronger's contract and allow the team to get a more friendly cap contract
Let the flaming begin.

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09-03-2010, 10:56 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

in fact this is the worst contract in phila sports history. it was negotiated with a player on the last year of a contract for whom you had just given up 3 first round picks and a top 6 forward.

review any sport, to see if you can find a trade where a team gave up a overpayment for a player on the last year of a contract and did not have a new contact in place. when the phillies traded for halliday they had contract before the trade was made.

pronger was hinting after the trade he would like to finish his career in st louis. it was all over hockeybuzz with the st louis bloggers. can you imagine the reaction of the flyers fans if holmgren had given up that much and could not resign the player. holmgren was in a bad situation and had no leverage to negotiate with pronger. on top of that, he did not realize that the flyers would be liable for all years of a contract because he did not undrstand the cba rules on contracts. he had to give a 35yr old player a 7 year contract with a 5 million dollar cap hit that could not come off the books.

if you review players, how many 38 year old players are still 5 million dollar players.
i do not care how well pronger takes care of himself, after 35 yrs old, you start losing it. a knee today, a shoulder tommorrow. the flyers in 2 years when pronger is 38, theywill be paying him against their cap and will be deeper in cap hell then they are now.

if i were the flyers, i would hope the league would void pronger's contract and allow the team to get a more friendly cap contract
here we go...

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Old
09-03-2010, 11:26 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

The worst?

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09-03-2010, 11:29 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

in fact this is the worst contract in phila sports history. it was negotiated with a player on the last year of a contract for whom you had just given up 3 first round picks and a top 6 forward.

review any sport, to see if you can find a trade where a team gave up a overpayment for a player on the last year of a contract and did not have a new contact in place. when the phillies traded for halliday they had contract before the trade was made.

pronger was hinting after the trade he would like to finish his career in st louis. it was all over hockeybuzz with the st louis bloggers. can you imagine the reaction of the flyers fans if holmgren had given up that much and could not resign the player. holmgren was in a bad situation and had no leverage to negotiate with pronger. on top of that, he did not realize that the flyers would be liable for all years of a contract because he did not undrstand the cba rules on contracts. he had to give a 35yr old player a 7 year contract with a 5 million dollar cap hit that could not come off the books.

if you review players, how many 38 year old players are still 5 million dollar players.
i do not care how well pronger takes care of himself, after 35 yrs old, you start losing it. a knee today, a shoulder tommorrow. the flyers in 2 years when pronger is 38, theywill be paying him against their cap and will be deeper in cap hell then they are now.

if i were the flyers, i would hope the league would void pronger's contract and allow the team to get a more friendly cap contract
I get it that the Flyers probably made a mistake giving Pronger a 35+ contract that takes him past his 40th birthday.
worst move ever? very few would agree with that.(that is about as nice as I can say it). The guy showed in the playoffs why we went out and got him. If not for incompitent goaltending the Flyers end their 35 year Cup drought. Mainly because of Pronger.

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09-03-2010, 11:35 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
if you review players, how many 38 year old players are still 5 million dollar players.
How many players of any age were as good as a 35 year old Pronger last year? Or a 40 year old Lidstrom? The normal rules don't apply to these guys.

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09-03-2010, 12:12 PM
  #212
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How many players of any age were as good as a 35 year old Pronger last year? Or a 40 year old Lidstrom? The normal rules don't apply to these guys.
True to an extent. However, more importantly, we needed to sign Pronger through the next few years (at the very least) and we didn't have a ton of contractual wiggle room.

Point being: 35+ rule or no 35+ rule, we needed to get him signed and at a reasonable cap hit short term.

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09-03-2010, 12:18 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgaspari
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

in fact this is the worst contract in phila sports history. it was negotiated with a player on the last year of a contract for whom you had just given up 3 first round picks and a top 6 forward.
LOL

We have a top 3 NHL defensemen locked up for sub-5 million cap hit.

If you can't see how well Pronger is going to age (barring any freak occurences) then I just don't know what to tell you. He'll easily be worth a 5 million dollar cap hit in 5 years as salaries continue to balloon and as he declines in effectiveness.

Oh and the trade was not overpayment.

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09-03-2010, 12:21 PM
  #214
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Clearly Bettman didn't have enough RAM to understand that the Pronger contract didn't "circumvrent" the cap.

Glad, other people convinced him.

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09-03-2010, 01:54 PM
  #215
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Why not? Salary cap figures are AAV, and there is every reason in the world if you're a player to want your contract front-loaded (money in your pocket) as opposed to evenly distributed, or back-loaded. The only problem with front-loaded contracts is when it takes a player to a fishy age where retirement nixes the remaining years of the deal and thus means that the team paid out more than the AAV they were charged against the salary cap while the player was playing.

You mention a possible trade... that's an issue with a TRADE, not the contract itself.
That is basically what I am getting out... maybe I didn't break that part out enough, but yeah, that is the point that can make it a circumvention... If you take a player that is truly projected to have six years left in the tank but is also projected to be a lesser part of the team in minutes and output, it is fair to both sides to manage the cash flow so that he is compensated for his work in a manner he will 'earn' it. The player gets his money up front and the team pays actual dollars as projected to what is deserved... and the team gets to ease the Cap in the higher earning years, while paying the piper in the later years. Where it is a circumvention is when the two parties sign a contract that extends beyond the expected period of the career.

As to the trade comment; Yes, you are correct... but that is a part of the team's thinking in their attempt to circumvent the CBA. It is all above board but only by circumventing because a player will be paid and/or accounted for beyond his normal career by two teams messaging their rosters in a way that both teams benefit, as does the player, but the other 28 teams are being screwed since one team gets a Cap easement and the other team is not hurt... while the other teams are theoretically not manipulating the CBA's Cap rules for their benefit.

We are both basically on the same page here as I see it.

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09-03-2010, 07:39 PM
  #216
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That is basically what I am getting out... maybe I didn't break that part out enough, but yeah, that is the point that can make it a circumvention... If you take a player that is truly projected to have six years left in the tank but is also projected to be a lesser part of the team in minutes and output, it is fair to both sides to manage the cash flow so that he is compensated for his work in a manner he will 'earn' it. The player gets his money up front and the team pays actual dollars as projected to what is deserved... and the team gets to ease the Cap in the higher earning years, while paying the piper in the later years. Where it is a circumvention is when the two parties sign a contract that extends beyond the expected period of the career.
These contracts are not necessarily "circumvention," though. Long-term deals have traditionally ALWAYS been cheaper on a per year basis than short-term deals (and that's without even getting into the cap manipulation that we're seeing now).

Additionally, in order to really prove it... you have to know that the parties discussed when the player expected to retire. Which is why proving it is hard... however, in Pronger's case, the contract will run its entirety on the NHL salary cap.

Quote:
As to the trade comment; Yes, you are correct... but that is a part of the team's thinking in their attempt to circumvent the CBA. It is all above board but only by circumventing because a player will be paid and/or accounted for beyond his normal career by two teams messaging their rosters in a way that both teams benefit, as does the player, but the other 28 teams are being screwed since one team gets a Cap easement and the other team is not hurt... while the other teams are theoretically not manipulating the CBA's Cap rules for their benefit.

We are both basically on the same page here as I see it.
You are identifying an entirely different issue from "cap circumvention," however. Trading away Pronger's contract towards the end (or when he's retired) may represent dirty pool, but it isn't really cap circumvention. That contract cannot circumvent the cap. Every cent of the deal will count against the cap, either with the Flyers or with someone else.

Now you might argue that the Flyers (at some future date) would theoretically be "circumventing" the cap if they dealt away Pronger's final years, but that's an independent matter to the contract itself.

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09-03-2010, 08:05 PM
  #217
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The worst?



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09-05-2010, 04:17 PM
  #218
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they are investigating this after he already played a full season for us? okie doke

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09-05-2010, 05:30 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
this contract will go down as the worst move in flyers history. he did screw it up

in fact this is the worst contract in phila sports history. it was negotiated with a player on the last year of a contract for whom you had just given up 3 first round picks and a top 6 forward.

review any sport, to see if you can find a trade where a team gave up a overpayment for a player on the last year of a contract and did not have a new contact in place. when the phillies traded for halliday they had contract before the trade was made.

pronger was hinting after the trade he would like to finish his career in st louis. it was all over hockeybuzz with the st louis bloggers. can you imagine the reaction of the flyers fans if holmgren had given up that much and could not resign the player. holmgren was in a bad situation and had no leverage to negotiate with pronger. on top of that, he did not realize that the flyers would be liable for all years of a contract because he did not undrstand the cba rules on contracts. he had to give a 35yr old player a 7 year contract with a 5 million dollar cap hit that could not come off the books.

if you review players, how many 38 year old players are still 5 million dollar players.
i do not care how well pronger takes care of himself, after 35 yrs old, you start losing it. a knee today, a shoulder tommorrow. the flyers in 2 years when pronger is 38, theywill be paying him against their cap and will be deeper in cap hell then they are now.

if i were the flyers, i would hope the league would void pronger's contract and allow the team to get a more friendly cap contract
HOLY NEW TOPIC!!!! START A NEW THREAD!

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09-06-2010, 08:44 AM
  #220
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Did someone say bad contracts, Chris Webber & Elton Brand say hello. The NBA is a league based on trading horrible contracts away

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09-06-2010, 08:53 AM
  #221
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Did someone say bad contracts, Chris Webber & Elton Brand say hello. The NBA is a league based on trading horrible contracts away
This is one reason why the NHL is so much better than the NBA. At least in the NHL if you do a few dumb things, you can dig yourself out of it. In the NBA, one mistake and you're completely screwed for 4-5 years.

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