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Old
09-06-2010, 04:56 PM
  #1
Blackhawkswincup
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Flyers HF Top 20 prospects

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...dephia_flyers/

Didn't see any discussion on it and I am curious as to how Flyer fans feel about your system at moment

I like Bobrovsky and Bartulis as prospects

Marshall and Nodl I think have nice NHL futures ahead also as solid role players

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09-06-2010, 05:09 PM
  #2
thestonedkoala
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Heh, Philadephia...

Joacim Eriksson new top prospect for Philadephia Flyers
In the fall edition of the Philadelphia Flyers top 20, goaltender Joacim Eriksson tops a group deep of goalies and role players.

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Old
09-06-2010, 05:16 PM
  #3
usahockey22flyers
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im pumped about Bobrovsky, kid really sounds like he has a head on his shoulders, especially for a Russian. Hopefully we get Eriksson and Bobs to pan out

Also, well writen Chris Shafer

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09-06-2010, 05:41 PM
  #4
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Looks about right. It's a shame a lot of those guys won't ever get to wear a Flyers jersey for more than a few games because of the depth on this team. Depending on who the team re-signs at the end of this season, there could be a spot for someone next year. A guy like Maroon is going to have to have a ridiculous camp or AHL season to get a call up or make the team this season. Nodl will probably be the go to call up for injuries since he has the experience. Bartulis I'm assuming will be on the roster.

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09-06-2010, 05:46 PM
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FlyHigh
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As usual, some serious overoptimism.

Marshall - 7.0C - Guy has zero offensive game. You don't have 2nd pairing potential in the 2010 NHL if you have zero offense unless you are a god defensively and Marshall isn't.

Nodl - 6.5B??? Since when has this kid looked like an NHL player outside of a 5 game cameo? But now all of a sudden he's very close to being a good 3rd liner?

Bartulis - 6.5B - Again, just seriously overstating his development this far. I mean, Parent gets ragged on and Bartulis gets the love despite them having roughly equivalent performances this past year.

Wellwood - 7.0C - Maybe I'm quibbling, but everything I've read/heard has this guy's ceiling as a 3rd line C.

Basically, our system is Bobro, Ericsson, and a lot of 6.0Cs.

EDIT: Testwuide - 6.5B? Based on what?

I mean, can we even have a realistic discussion about prospects anymore? Apparently we're unearthing 3rd liners from nowhere. I mean, according to HF, guys like Draper and Yelle (in their primes) were 6.0 players. But guys like Nodl, Testwuide, and Wellwood have more potential and in 2 cases, are just a small step away from being better than those guys?

Jesus.


Last edited by FlyHigh: 09-06-2010 at 05:52 PM.
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Old
09-06-2010, 05:58 PM
  #6
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Just to let you know, your opinions were factored into it a bit. Before your little polls, I had Bartulis much further down.

As far as Wellwood's grade, this is more a full staff decision than my own personal one. We've had a couple group discussions about Wellwood.

I fully defend Nodl's grade and Testwuide's grade.


Also, as per usual, FlyHigh missed something. He doesn't seem to understand the grading rules. He overrates a "C" grade.

I'm probably one of the harshest graders among Staff members.

Also, expect us to be around the bottom 5 of the upcoming organizational rankings. I think it goes without saying that we have no one in the top 50.

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09-06-2010, 06:02 PM
  #7
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Another note, just in case some of you are interested, Hockey's Future is currently in the middle of a discussion which could lead to a re-evaluation in how we grade prospects.

Since some people don't quite understand or often misinterpret grades (aka they see what the want to see), we might re-define or elaborate on our grading definitions outlined in the "About Grades" page.

Even if the discussions begin, something like that kind of turnover won't happen until possibly next year's Fall Top 20s.

Just be prepared. There are quite a few things being changed and discussed involving the future of HF and how we go about things.

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09-06-2010, 06:32 PM
  #8
Pwood
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Where is the "About Grades" page?

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09-06-2010, 06:47 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
Where is the "About Grades" page?
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/playerprojections/

Right now it's:

10 - Generational talent
9 - Elite forward / defenseman / goaltender
8 - First line forward / No. 2 defenseman / No. 1 goaltender
7 - Second line forward / No. 3-4 defenseman / journeyman No. 1 goaltender
6 - Third line forward / No. 5-6 defenseman / Backup Goaltender
5 - Fourth line forward / No. 7 defenseman / depth goaltender
4 - Top minor league forward / defenseman / goaltender
3 - Average minor league forward / defenseman / goaltender
2 - Minor league role-player
1 - Borderline minor league player

Part of the discussion is that, because nobody is ever really a generational talent, we're needlessly wasting that 10.0 spot, and even 9.0 through 9.5.

Basically, what results in wasting that is you cram the rest of the positions into spots that might really need to be separated.

A lot of people feel that too many prospects are getting rated 6.5C to 7.5C, and I think many staffers agree. There was a thread about it on the Prospects forum not too long ago that myself and another writer, Mike Farkas, participated in.

In a sense, we've crammed ourselves into a tight space as far as grades are concerned and forced ourselves to give a grade to, for example, two players that should have a little more differentiation between them.

Basically, what is being discussed is doing something like this:

(In bold are the old ratings.)

Quote:
10 - Consistent MVP candidate / hall of famer / hall of fame caliber goalie - generational talent
9.5 - franchise player / elite goalie
9.0 - all-star / all-star goalie - Elite forward / defenseman / goaltender
8.5 - average 1st liner/Top-pair / solid starting goalie
8.0 - borderline 1st liner/Top-pair - good 2nd liner/2nd-pair / average starting goalie - First line forward / No. 2 defenseman / No. 1 goaltender
7.5 - average 2nd liner / journeyman starter
7.0 - borderline 2nd liner / good 3rd liner / tandem goalie - Second line forward / No. 3-4 defenseman / journeyman No. 1 goaltender
6.5 - average 3rd liner / back-up goalie
6.0 - borderline 3rd line / good 4th liner/enforcer / goalie call-up - Third line forward / No. 5-6 defenseman / Backup Goaltender
5.5 - 4th liner / borderline nhler / AHL goalie
5.0 - Fourth line forward / No. 7 defenseman / depth goaltender
4.5 -
4.0 - Top minor league forward / defenseman / goaltender
3.5 -
3.0 - Average minor league forward / defenseman / goaltender
2.5 -
2.0 - Minor league role-player
1.5 -
1.0 - Borderline minor league player
We're also considering changing up how we give our letter grades.

If you want to read more, you can go here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=814021

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09-06-2010, 06:51 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Also, as per usual, FlyHigh missed something. He doesn't seem to understand the grading rules. He overrates a "C" grade.

I'm probably one of the harshest graders among Staff members.

Also, expect us to be around the bottom 5 of the upcoming organizational rankings. I think it goes without saying that we have no one in the top 50.
From HF:

Quote:
B - Should reach potential, could drop 1 rating - likely to reach potential, but may have a hole or two in his game that will keep him from reaching his full potential. The potential rating is multiplied by 90 percent for depth chart purposes, which indicates slightly less certainty about a player’s future performance.
So you're basically saying in your grades that Testwuide and Nodl should reach their potential and that their potential is higher than Kris Draper.

Explain to me how I'm misinterpreting that.

Or do you actually believe that?

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09-06-2010, 06:51 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Bartulis was given a three-year contract extension even though even though the Flyers brought
Might wanna edit the double type.

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09-06-2010, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
So you're basically saying in your grades that Testwuide and Nodl should reach their potential and that their potential is higher than Kris Draper.

Explain to me how I'm misinterpreting that.

Or do you actually believe that?
6.5 means that the player's potential is that of a good or solid 3rd line player capable of jumping into 2nd line minutes if such a need arises even though they will not be a permanent fit at that position.

The B means that they could drop below that.

So a 6.5B means they could become a consistently good third line player with the ability to jump into higher roles, but they will more than likely fall down a half grade or possibly even a full grade to just an average third liner or a strong fourth liner.

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09-06-2010, 06:55 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Might wanna edit the double type.
Just double checked my copy that I sent to the editor. It didn't have that part in haha.

I'll send him a message about it.

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09-06-2010, 06:57 PM
  #14
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Am I the only one who liked Nodl in the playoffs last season? I thought he looked like he was able to hang, showed pretty good speed and he was willing to throw his weight around, which I thought was nice given his size. I wouldn't mind him on the roster this season in the right role.

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09-06-2010, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
6.5 means that the player's potential is that of a good or solid 3rd line player capable of jumping into 2nd line minutes if such a need arises even though they will not be a permanent fit at that position.

The B means that they could drop below that.

So a 6.5B means they could become a consistently good third line player with the ability to jump into higher roles, but they will more than likely fall down a half grade or possibly even a full grade to just an average third liner or a strong fourth liner.
Of course, your own grading criteria say "may", not "more than likely" which would essentially mean "certainly."

Even then, you think that Nodl and Testwuide might not reach their full potential and would still be as good as Kris Draper or Yelle?

I still think that's just totally ridiculous.

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09-06-2010, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm815 View Post
Am I the only one who liked Nodl in the playoffs last season? I thought he looked like he was able to hang, showed pretty good speed and he was willing to throw his weight around, which I thought was nice given his size. I wouldn't mind him on the roster this season in the right role.
I think he held his own defensively, outside of those couple of spinorama/between the legs moves inside his on end.

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09-06-2010, 07:04 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm815 View Post
Am I the only one who liked Nodl in the playoffs last season? I thought he looked like he was able to hang, showed pretty good speed and he was willing to throw his weight around, which I thought was nice given his size. I wouldn't mind him on the roster this season in the right role.
I thought he was decent, but playing 4-5 minutes on the 4th line is a far cry from being a 13 minute 3rd line player who can step in on the 2nd line when needed.

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09-06-2010, 07:20 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
As usual, some serious overoptimism.
As usual? In all of the years I've been coming to this site, the Flyers section has always had the most reserved ratings for a team's prospects.

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09-06-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm815 View Post
Am I the only one who liked Nodl in the playoffs last season? I thought he looked like he was able to hang, showed pretty good speed and he was willing to throw his weight around, which I thought was nice given his size. I wouldn't mind him on the roster this season in the right role.
You're not alone. I agree with you, though people here are bitter at Nodl because his offense hasn't developed.

Flyers fans can be bitter whenever the opportunity arises though.

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09-06-2010, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
I think he held his own defensively, outside of those couple of spinorama/between the legs moves inside his on end.
At the time I was all, "Holy **** Nodl! Don't ever pull that crap again!"

Then he did it again and I was all, "What the ****!?!?"

Now, I just laugh at it.

That said, yeah, he should probably not try to be Giroux ever again.

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09-06-2010, 07:33 PM
  #21
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Had no idea Bobrovsky was with the Phantoms. I have to make it out to a few more games this season to check him out.

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09-06-2010, 07:35 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah View Post
As usual? In all of the years I've been coming to this site, the Flyers section has always had the most reserved ratings for a team's prospects.
I'm specifically referring to our recent prospect ratings which I find to be somewhat ridiculous, I'm still waiting to hear how marginal guys like Nodl and Testwuide have Kris Draper potential.

Of course, I think HF gives out far too many 7s in general and then hides behind the "he didn't reach his potential" excuse.

I can say with 99% certainty that Testwuide will never exceed or even reach a Draper/Yelle level and it's not because he didn't reach his potential, it's simply because he's not good enough. I think the same probably goes for Wellwood.

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09-06-2010, 07:46 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm specifically referring to our recent prospect ratings which I find to be somewhat ridiculous, I'm still waiting to hear how marginal guys like Nodl and Testwuide have Kris Draper potential.

Of course, I think HF gives out far too many 7s in general and then hides behind the "he didn't reach his potential" excuse.

I can say with 99% certainty that Testwuide will never exceed or even reach a Draper/Yelle level and it's not because he didn't reach his potential, it's simply because he's not good enough. I think the same probably goes for Wellwood.
I don't pay attention to the player categories for each definition. They're too gray, too opinionated. I try to stick as close to the definitions provided as possible.

All things considered, we're currently in the process of changing them.

Anyway, would you stop trying to be the needy child?

You get so emo whenever I'm in a conversation on this forum. It's getting old.

If you want to discuss the problems with the way the system is set up, then discuss the problems like every other adult in that thread I provided.

When I provide the top 20s, it is my job to give a possible potential (number grade) and the likelihood that the player will reach that potential (letter grade).

You're telling me that I'm doing my job wrong because I'm doing my job the way I'm supposed to be doing it. Just because you want to read it however you want to read it, ignoring how the writer explains it, does not give you the absolute authority to bash and complain whenever someone offers you a service that you are receiving free of charge.

If you don't want to read it, then don't.

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09-06-2010, 07:52 PM
  #24
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I'm emo because I say you're wrong?

An emo kid would see that you're wrong and go listen to Simple Plan and cut himself.

I notice that you've still continuing to avoid defending your actual rankings and are instead trying to turn this into a Shafer-FlyHigh thing instead of trying to justify why Mike Testwuide is ranked a 6.5B.

So tell me, what attributes in Mike Testwuide do you see that give him a significant possibility of becoming better than Kris Draper or failing that, the potential to be an above-average 3rd liner? Please, enlighten me. This is a forum for hockey debate after all.

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09-06-2010, 07:59 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm specifically referring to our recent prospect ratings which I find to be somewhat ridiculous, I'm still waiting to hear how marginal guys like Nodl and Testwuide have Kris Draper potential.

Of course, I think HF gives out far too many 7s in general and then hides behind the "he didn't reach his potential" excuse.

I can say with 99% certainty that Testwuide will never exceed or even reach a Draper/Yelle level and it's not because he didn't reach his potential, it's simply because he's not good enough. I think the same probably goes for Wellwood.
What is the fixation with Draper? Guys like him and Madden are rarities. In their primes, they were both amazinginly good at a specific role, and still are pretty good at it. They weren't average 3rd liners by any stretch.

Nodl can absolutely be a solid 3rd liner if he puts it all together. And that's what these rankings rank. The potential of prospects to reach their ceiling.

There's a 99% chance that no prospect will reach their full potential. Few players reach the level of a Draper, Madden, or even Yelle. That does not mean that they don't have the potential to reach that level. Things happen. We're talking about prospects. Most of which are still kids.

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