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Tom Renney on Oilers Lunch now

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Old
09-09-2010, 06:41 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Top 10 to bottom 10 in the matter of a season? Was there a massive personnel change?
Good question. I just took a look after I seen this post. The answer is no. It was the same Assistants underneath Renney for all 4 seasons according to hockeydb.

As far as players there were some additions and subtractions.

The second season (8th) they had Jagr, Straka, Prucha, Nylander, Shanahan, Matt Cullen, Rosizval etc... at the top of the scoring.

The third season (22nd) the top scorers were Jagr, Straka, Shanahan, Gomez, Drury, Dubinsky, Rosizval etc...

It almost looks like it should have been as good or better. I think Matt Cullen is good on the PP and I am guessing Nylander was as well. You would think Gomez, Drury would help off-set that but who knows?


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09-09-2010, 06:45 PM
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Top 10 to bottom 10 in the matter of a season? Was there a massive personnel change?
I just looked up the rosters for both years.....I guess Straka, Nylander, and Hossa were on the 06/07 squad but not the following year. That would explain it I think



EDIT: after reading Oilerdiehards post, I checked again and missed Straka as a winger in 07/08...sorry for the misinformation


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09-09-2010, 06:47 PM
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Did Staufer say he never thought Quinn was the right guy for the job? if so--he is contradicting himself big time

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09-09-2010, 06:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Good question. I just took a look after I seen this post. The answer is no. It was the same Assistants underneath Renney for all 4 seasons according to hockeydb.
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
I just looked up the rosters for both years.....I guess Straka, Nylander, and Hossa were on the 06/07 squad but not the following year. That would explain it I think
I was thinking player personnel but you guys covered both avenues! Interesting to say the least. He should have a lot of talent to work with, no Jagr-esque talent but some highly skilled players nonetheless.

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09-09-2010, 06:49 PM
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I was thinking player personnel but you guys covered both avenues! Interesting to say the least. He should have a lot of talent to work with, no Jagr-esque talent but some highly skilled players nonetheless.
I edited and added to my post above to show the top scorers from good PP season to poor PP season back to back.


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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
Did Staufer say he never thought Quinn was the right guy for the job? if so--he is contradicting himself big time
No he said he did not think Quinn was the right guy moving forward with such a young and rookie laden line up this season.

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09-09-2010, 06:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Here are the PP rankings for Renney's Rangers tenure:

05/06 - 8th
06/07 - 8th
07/08 - 22nd
08/09 - 29th (coached the first 61 games before Tortorella took over)
An interesting thing to notice based on these rankings is that Jagr's PP TOI and PP points from 05/06 to 07/08 went down for both statistics.

In 07/08 Gomez came from the Devils and produced at a pretty similar clip on the PP as he did in 06/07 on the Devils in terms of ice time and points.

Pretty much a similar story on Drury too, produced at a similar clip as he did with the Sabres on the PP with similar-ish time like he did in NYR.

Would it be fair to say Renney doesn't really have that big an affect on production of players on the PP based on this? Maybe that his PP goes as his players go?

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09-09-2010, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
I edited and added to my post above to show the top scorers from good PP season to poor PP season back to back.




No he said he did not think Quinn was the right guy moving forward with such a young and rookie laden line up this season.

sorry

Thought it was implied that stauffer AT THE TIME of quinn's hiring thought he was not the guy--because at the quinn hiring stauffer did back flips

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09-09-2010, 06:54 PM
  #33
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Would it be fair to say Renney doesn't really have that big an affect on production of players on the PP based on this? Maybe that his PP goes as his players go?
Yeah that could be the case or the mix of players at least. Not sure. I believe Matt Cullen (if I am remembering correctly?) has a good shot from the point and distribute the puck. No from the second line up above strikes me as having a shot from the point. But that should not have that huge of an effect. Something must have really changed.

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09-09-2010, 06:58 PM
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I just looked up the rosters for both years.....I guess Straka, Nylander, and Hossa were on the 06/07 squad but not the following year. That would explain it I think



EDIT: after reading Oilerdiehards post, I checked again and missed Straka as a winger in 07/08...sorry for the misinformation
You know that's Marcel Hossa, right?

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09-09-2010, 07:00 PM
  #35
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Why the hell is Buchberger still a coach on this team? This is one this thing that irks me to no end. What has he proved at the coaching level? He's hardly a great hockey mind. I don't get it.

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09-09-2010, 07:09 PM
  #36
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sorry

Thought it was implied that stauffer AT THE TIME of quinn's hiring thought he was not the guy--because at the quinn hiring stauffer did back flips
No worries.

I did find it interesting that Stauffer brought up the scenario yet again about vets treating the young guys poorly. He did it in a very round about way. He said it more straight out the other day that that was the case. But basically he said something about the vets going overboard with putting the young guys in their place and basically holding them down.

Then he immediately mentioned Moreau, Staios and Souray at the tail end of that. But threw in the general comment Moreau is a nice guy and Staios too. Then he said ...and Souray can be nice sometimes when wants to be or something to that effect.

I found that interesting. I would say up until now Bob has been very diplomatic towards Souray. Probably because he figured he would have to see him face to face every day again soon. But that little sudden shot almost makes me wonder if knows he will not be seeing him soon? I know that is a big reach and I am probably reading too much into things. Just found that who sequence and comment interesting.

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09-09-2010, 07:26 PM
  #37
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No worries.

I did find it interesting that Stauffer brought up the scenario yet again about vets treating the young guys poorly. He did it in a very round about way. He said it more straight out the other day that that was the case. But basically he said something about the vets going overboard with putting the young guys in their place and basically holding them down.

Then he immediately mentioned Moreau, Staios and Souray at the tail end of that. But threw in the general comment Moreau is a nice guy and Staios too. Then he said ...and Souray can be nice sometimes when wants to be or something to that effect.

I found that interesting. I would say up until now Bob has been very diplomatic towards Souray. Probably because he figured he would have to see him face to face every day again soon. But that little sudden shot almost makes me wonder if knows he will not be seeing him soon? I know that is a big reach and I am probably reading too much into things. Just found that who sequence and comment interesting.
I really hate to bring this up without finding a link or quote, but someone on OilersNation, so I assume Brownlee or Gregor but maybe one of the other writers (?), had a short bit about Tom Gilbert was one guy who was really affected by Souray's negative attitude. It was brought up as a "did Gilbert start playing better when Whitney got here or when Souray was injured?" debate. I hope someone else remembers reading it because I can't for the life of me recall where it was. Maybe it was Lowetide or even Staples ... I read too many blogs.

Anyway, I liked Staios so I find it hard to believe he'd deliberately keep the young players down, however I could believe that he might be an old school kind of guy who thinks young players should have to "pay their dues" etc. To me that's not exactly the same thing, but both might have caused difficulties in the locker room. I was really bothered by some of Quinn's end of the year comments about how the young guys were very quiet in the room and I hope some of them will take the initiative to speak up this year without feeling nervous about it.

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09-09-2010, 07:29 PM
  #38
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I really hate to bring this up without finding a link or quote, but someone on OilersNation, so I assume Brownlee or Gregor but maybe one of the other writers (?), had a short bit about Tom Gilbert was one guy who was really affected by Souray's negative attitude. It was brought up as a "did Gilbert start playing better when Whitney got here or when Souray was injured?" debate. I hope someone else remembers reading it because I can't for the life of me recall where it was. Maybe it was Lowetide or even Staples ... I read too many blogs.

Anyway, I liked Staios so I find it hard to believe he'd deliberately keep the young players down, however I could believe that he might be an old school kind of guy who thinks young players should have to "pay their dues" etc. To me that's not exactly the same thing, but both might have caused difficulties in the locker room. I was really bothered by some of Quinn's end of the year comments about how the young guys were very quiet in the room and I hope some of them will take the initiative to speak up this year without feeling nervous about it.
brownleee

his comment was

"Gilbert was one guy who grew and advance by not having souray's neagtive vibe around" Something like that

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09-09-2010, 08:01 PM
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brownleee

his comment was

"Gilbert was one guy who grew and advance by not having souray's neagtive vibe around" Something like that
I think not having Souray or Moreau will drastically cut down any alpha male dominance the rookies were under and help their confidence.

Stauffer just today was talking about how after Gagner-Cogliano-Nillson lit it up at the end of the one season that the vets reined them in to put them in their place. That worked out so well. Sounds like the vets responsible are already gone (assuming Souray is shipped soon too).

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09-09-2010, 08:05 PM
  #40
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Why the hell is Buchberger still a coach on this team? This is one this thing that irks me to no end. What has he proved at the coaching level? He's hardly a great hockey mind. I don't get it.
Based on what exactly? The fact that he existed in the NHL for 15 years on extremely limited skill, and even managed 20 goals and 44 points?

He didn't do that with his speed, shot, balance or any other physical attribute!

You contrast his skill set to Moreau's (who has scored at a similar pace over his career), and you would give shot, speed, strength, balance, etc to Moreau in a landslide... and a tie on heart/determination.

So what is left? What explains that Buchy achieved what he did?

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09-09-2010, 08:12 PM
  #41
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You know that's Marcel Hossa, right?
What's in a first name? He is still Hossa

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09-09-2010, 08:26 PM
  #42
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@Oilerdiehard re: "nice guy"
@ Other Lil' Mikey re: "pay their dues"
@ Nullterm re: Alpha male...

It's an interesting discussion on leadership... especially in the context of sports and age gaps.

My take on the whole thing from what I've read and what I've experienced, is that the type of accountability we had in that 2006 team was perfect for it... a whole bunch of old vets and young pros (distinct from rooks, sophmores) in the 25 year range... the level of personal accountability the vets expected of the 25 year olds was just right, and the team gelled, digging each other out when going got tough.

Fast forward, and you've got some of that same core still around when the Quadruplet rooks (Gags, Cogs, Nilsson and Gilbert) all come on board... young guys listen, young guys get time, young guys get success... old guys re-assert the next season (to push them the next level), young guys get defensive... 20 games into a crappy stretch and sparks are going to fly.

Having been both the grouchy old vet, and the young, cocky whipper snapper (I'm sure many of us have played both roles).... it takes a certain type of elder leadership to relate and have patience.

My guess is that, while all those guys on the way out are nice guys, they just didn't fit into the demographic of the team anymore... wanted to win.... anxious and impatient to cap a great career... and just couldn't wait for these guys to mature on their own.

Notice the only guy of the 2006 core that mgmt kept around are the two youngest, Horcs and Hemsky. Their age allows them the patience to ride out the rebuild.

The new vets we've brought in, didn't experience 2006... they came in knowing what they were getting into, not expecting to be joining a championship. In contrast, I think that old core was clawing for dear life on the idea that 2006 can't be their last chance with this team... and that impatience led to infighting.

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09-09-2010, 08:49 PM
  #43
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I think the veteran/rookie thing could have worked out fine, but the problem was there was a gap there that never got bridged. Whether it was the vets that needed to help the young guys along more (help, not push/drag along) in addition to keeping them in check, or the in betweeners like Greene (now an A in LA), Reasoner, Stoll, etc. Greene and Reasoner especially because they had a good balance of maturity but also know how to keep things in the room light, without making it personal (my outsider opinion).

Throw in fiery Quinn who didn't seem to get along with either side. Great stress test to find out what shakes loose.

I think attitude will be a big improvement with Renney running in the show and the veteran leadership that couldn't bridge the gap being shown the door. I think Horcoff, Hemsky, etc will be more open to working with the younger players, and the same younger players are a bit older, wiser. Hopefully together they can help shephard Hall, Eberle, Paajarvi, etc into the fold.

Atleast looking at the team's recent history on paper, I like where things are headed.

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09-09-2010, 09:09 PM
  #44
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Top 10 to bottom 10 in the matter of a season? Was there a massive personnel change?
Nylander had his 83 point season

Nylander out
Cullen out

Gomez in
Drury in

are the differing names of note I saw in the rosters

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09-09-2010, 09:11 PM
  #45
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Taking phone calls and emails.

-Don't need to hire a new coach, he thinks he has everything covered. Will rotate who coaches upstairs.

-Team Captain - Very strong candidates, not sure if he is going to name someone right away. Hoping not to go to three "A"'s but he is not scared to do so. Did so in New York for a year


Goaltending - Dubnyk or Deslauriers. A little bit of a horse race, blank page. Dubnyk finished strong. Not sure who will play.

Souray - has no idea if he will be moved. Deferred question to management.

Underacheivers, how to deal with them? - end of bench, press box. But has to be part of the solution.

Kill penatlies who? - Fraser, Cogliano. Not scared to use the kids but will protect them by playing them with veterans.

Gilbert Brule why not more ice time etc? Could kill penalties, needs time to process game at his own pace. Need to lean on him and build his confidence.

Steve MacIntyre - yes will be allowed to protect the kids. Doesn't want to see a guy get 1.5 minutes a game. Needs the opportunity to learn to get more minutes.

What did you learn from coaching Jagr? Listen to them, give them reign and respect. Conversely not to be afraid to kick them in the butt. (obviously answered in reference to coaching stars)

Right handed players with left hand players - yes that can be important for a one time shot.

Renney excited to start the season but needs the patience of the fans as rebuilds take time.

----------


Meaning there are none. The oilers paid Souray the big bucks to not only score some goals and provide some toughness...but to wear a "A" or more likely the "C" for atleast a few years. Now that that will never happen the oilers have a major void.

Hemsky- A
Horcoff -A
Penner-A

These guys are A's for sure with none of them even close to surefire C material. Horcoff would be the ideal choice but he hasnt proven he can handle the pressure of playing for 5.5 mill per year let alone with the captaincy.


Last edited by JariCurry: 09-09-2010 at 09:11 PM. Reason: typo
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09-09-2010, 09:18 PM
  #46
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Nylander had his 83 point season

Nylander out
Cullen out

Gomez in
Drury in

are the differing names of note I saw in the rosters
Also Jagr and Gomez had almost no chemistry while Nylander and Jagr were great together.

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09-09-2010, 09:28 PM
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@Oilerdiehard re: "nice guy"
@ Other Lil' Mikey re: "pay their dues"
@ Nullterm re: Alpha male...

It's an interesting discussion on leadership... especially in the context of sports and age gaps.

Fast forward, and you've got some of that same core still around when the Quadruplet rooks (Gags, Cogs, Nilsson and Gilbert) all come on board... young guys listen, young guys get time, young guys get success... old guys re-assert the next season (to push them the next level), young guys get defensive... 20 games into a crappy stretch and sparks are going to fly.

Having been both the grouchy old vet, and the young, cocky whipper snapper (I'm sure many of us have played both roles).... it takes a certain type of elder leadership to relate and have patience.

My guess is that, while all those guys on the way out are nice guys, they just didn't fit into the demographic of the team anymore... wanted to win.... anxious and impatient to cap a great career... and just couldn't wait for these guys to mature on their own.

Actually when Stauffer talked about this more directly the other day. He specifically said certain vets resented that the young guys got the spotlight and it basically angered them that everyone was talking about the young guys leading the team. So Stauffer said they made sure that the rookies were consistently put in their and basically kept down. Maybe I was reading too much into what Stauffer was saying but impression I got was they were being mean to the young guys and treating them like second class citizens.

Tambellini later in last season said the leadership core needed to be changed. He said then maybe the young guys will feel comfortable to take on a larger role with a different leadership core. Which seemed to dove tail a little with what Stauffer seems to be saying.

Couple that with the fact that Moreau in the media blamed the teams problems on the young forwards. Then last year he publicly threw the young goalies under the bus saying we need to score 5,6,7 goals with these young goalies to win a game. You know if he said those things publicly he was probably doing the same or worse in the room. Then recently Moreau basically said that it was being on a bad team and not him playing poorly. Just a couple of examples (among a number of them) that kind of point a finger IMO in Moreau's (not that I think it is all his fault by any means) direction. Stauffer's comments only seem to re-enforce what a lot of people wondered if it was going on.

So I think we are viewing this form a very different point of view. I mean couple all of that above with hints from people like Guy Flaming that Souray may have kind of had it in for his teammate Tom Gilbert. Then add to that Rishaug's comments about Souray being a negative cloud in the locker room and constantly complaining about everything in front of all of the boys.

When I hear stuff like that it makes it harder for me to push the blame on a couple of cocky kids. I do not know for sure of course. But we get different impressions of things.

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09-09-2010, 09:40 PM
  #48
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Actually when Stauffer talked about this more directly the other day. He specifically said certain vets resented that the young guys got the spotlight and it basically angered them that everyone was talking about the young guys leading the team. So Stauffer said they made sure that the rookies were consistently put in their and basically kept down. Maybe I was reading too much into what Stauffer was saying but impression I got was they were being mean to the young guys and treating them like second class citizens.

Tambellini later in last season said the leadership core needed to be changed. He said then maybe the young guys will feel comfortable to take on a larger role with a different leadership core. Which seemed to dove tail a little with what Stauffer seems to be saying.

Couple that with the fact that Moreau in the media blamed the teams problems on the young forwards. Then last year he publicly threw the young goalies under the bus saying we need to score 5,6,7 goals with these young goalies to win a game. You know if he said those things publicly he was probably doing the same or worse in the room. Then recently Moreau basically said that it was being on a bad team and not him playing poorly. Just a couple of examples (among a number of them) that kind of point a finger IMO in Moreau's (not that I think it is all his fault by any means) direction. Stauffer's comments only seem to re-enforce what a lot of people wondered if it was going on.

So I think we are viewing this form a very different point of view. I mean couple all of that above with hints from people like Guy Flaming that Souray may have kind of had it in for his teammate Tom Gilbert. Then add to that Rishaug's comments about Souray being a negative cloud in the locker room and constantly complaining about everything in front of all of the boys.

When I hear stuff like that it makes it harder for me to push the blame on a couple of cocky kids. I do not know for sure of course. But we get different impressions of things.
This sort of thing would explain why the team had considerable difficulties coming together, and why pretty much all the 'captain material' was or is being shipped out ASAP.

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09-09-2010, 10:11 PM
  #49
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Couple that with the fact that Moreau in the media blamed the teams problems on the young forwards. Then last year he publicly threw the young goalies under the bus saying we need to score 5,6,7 goals with these young goalies to win a game. You know if he said those things publicly he was probably doing the same or worse in the room. Then recently Moreau basically said that it was being on a bad team and not him playing poorly. Just a couple of examples (among a number of them) that kind of point a finger IMO in Moreau's (not that I think it is all his fault by any means) direction. Stauffer's comments only seem to re-enforce what a lot of people wondered if it was going on.
And how many TSN turning point, back breaking dumb penalties did El Capitan take? I try to respect the guy for all he's done, but the more that comes out the more it sounds like Moreau was a big cause of all the turmoil. Solid work ethic and character, but leadershipwise very inexperience/immature.

As for Souray & Gilbert, well one guy actually looked like he put forth an effort on the ice and didn't throw the team/organization under a street paver. So long Big Cranky, hello Gilbert & Whitney!

Souray was downright painful to watch in last season with his complete apathy on ice given his previous season performance.

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09-14-2010, 10:21 AM
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...and Souray can be nice sometimes when wants to be or something to that effect.

I found that interesting. I would say up until now Bob has been very diplomatic towards Souray. Probably because he figured he would have to see him face to face every day again soon. But that little sudden shot almost makes me wonder if knows he will not be seeing him soon?

I know that is a big reach and I am probably reading too much into things. Just found that whole sequence and comment interesting.
Hmmm... Maybe I was not reaching too much into it. When I was trying to read between the lines and Stauffer did know he would not be seeing Souray at camp soon.

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