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Old
09-09-2010, 12:13 PM
  #26
nitz
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what about something built around semin and staal?

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09-09-2010, 01:07 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTD5504 View Post
i don't think i'd even entertain trading Carlson for Staal straight up...why would the Caps even think about ADDING pieces to a deal around those two? I know it will never happen, but am I crazy in thinking Staal is a bit overrated in here?
I know you didn't start this thread, but think on this-- There have been a few dozen trades proposed for Marc Staal this summer. They are inevitably started by fans of other teams, who agree that Staal would be on their first pair if not their best defenseman. Those fans proceed to offer a package that would NEVER be enough to return a #1/#2 defenseman, and then call out the Rangers fans for "overrating" the player they have no desire to trade in the first place.

That's what it boils down to. "Overrated" is when fans try to propose trades for more than their guy is worth. Rangers fans "overrate" Staal SO much apparently, that we don't want him traded.

Bottom line, if you want a #1/#2 defenseman with 4 RFA years left and plenty of room to grow, don't waste anyone's time unless you are prepared to offer what he's worth. I understand that it would hurt to offer up Carlson +. You need to understand that, in order to acquire a player like Staal, it should hurt.

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09-09-2010, 01:12 PM
  #28
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FWIW and IIRC Carlson was paired with MDZ with the London Knights and they were very good together, think they are still good friends. In that regard I could see NYR wanting Carlson in a package for Staal, but can't see the Caps even considering a trade for Carlson.

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09-09-2010, 01:20 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I know you didn't start this thread, but think on this-- There have been a few dozen trades proposed for Marc Staal this summer. They are inevitably started by fans of other teams, who agree that Staal would be on their first pair if not their best defenseman. Those fans proceed to offer a package that would NEVER be enough to return a #1/#2 defenseman, and then call out the Rangers fans for "overrating" the player they have no desire to trade in the first place.

That's what it boils down to. "Overrated" is when fans try to propose trades for more than their guy is worth. Rangers fans "overrate" Staal SO much apparently, that we don't want him traded.

Bottom line, if you want a #1/#2 defenseman with 4 RFA years left and plenty of room to grow, don't waste anyone's time unless you are prepared to offer what he's worth. I understand that it would hurt to offer up Carlson +. You need to understand that, in order to acquire a player like Staal, it should hurt.

Flames fans were saying the same thing about Phaneuf and look for what he got traded...

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09-09-2010, 01:31 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Yannick8 View Post
Flames fans were saying the same thing about Phaneuf and look for what he got traded...
Are you serious with that statement? Phanuef and Staal arent even close to the same type of player. Phanuef is constantly out of position going for a big hit and can NOT play a shutdown role, he is a good player no doubt and id love to have him but he is not close to as good as staal. Please stop, staal is 23yo already a top defensman in the league, just begining to tap his offensive potential while shutting down players like malkin, ovechkin, crosby and so on.

If you want to get staal you have to give to get and to get a #1 Shutdown dman who is finding his offensive game while NOT even playing the PP for the rangers your going to have to give up alot. Hes not past his prime, hes still getting better every year, stop comparing him to players who arent close to his value or situation or age.. Your comparisons of phanuef are wrong they play completely different styles, phanuef had issues with managment and pronger is a 35yo player who will be 36 in a month who will only continue to decline.

I think you guys are underrating staal, and the reason why we want overpayment is because staal is that damn good and wants to be a ranger. what you think is overpayment is actually what he is worth, your not gonna offer us scraps or 2/3rd line players for a #1 shutdown dmam who is 23yo!

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09-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #31
smoneil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick8 View Post
Flames fans were saying the same thing about Phaneuf and look for what he got traded...
The difference being that:

A- Phaneuf had been in a state of decline for two seasons

and

B- Phaneuf was already making UFA money


As I said, Staal's defense just keeps getting better, he's improved on his offense in each of his three seasons (doubling his point total last year, all on even strength), and he's got 4 years of RFA left, making him relatively affordable for nearly half a decade.

An expensive player in a state of decline will not return as much as a cost-controllable player in a state of improvement.

The comparison doesn't work.


Last edited by smoneil: 09-09-2010 at 01:52 PM.
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09-09-2010, 02:44 PM
  #32
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It's possible that Carlson some day might be the Caps best defenseman--maybe even better than Mr. Green. Even so--Staal is the Rangers best defenseman and he's not that much older than Carlson. If I could think of a Caps player that Staal reminds me most of--it would be Rod Langway. Taking Staal off our current roster--leaving the rest of our defense as is--would be very painful. So yeah--you guys are going to have give up something that's going to hurt you to get him and I'm sorry but Thomas Fleischmann, Anton Gustafsson and a late 1st rounder just doesn't cut it. Maybe all good players but no player in that package is likely to become a key component of your team. Staal is a key component of the Rangers team and he's more developed than Carlson is. Carlson has a good chance of becoming a great player--Staal is a guaranteed great d-man. Maybe not HOF material but really really good. So that's why Carlson +.

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Old
09-10-2010, 10:00 AM
  #33
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The Rangers will most likely sign Staal themselves, which would be a great move as he is a very solid player. It is probable that Sather isn't looking to deal him at all, just talk him down on salary or term.
Agree w/this.
M Staal is already a lower level elite player + improving, IMO; and as a shut down specialist has few peers.
Thus Staal is not untouchable, but not likely even in Coke for Pepsi, an elite for an elite. Only see him going in a package for more total talent, likely an uber-elite (think Malkin, etc.).

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09-10-2010, 10:33 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
It's possible that Carlson some day might be the Caps best defenseman--maybe even better than Mr. Green. Even so--Staal is the Rangers best defenseman and he's not that much older than Carlson. If I could think of a Caps player that Staal reminds me most of--it would be Rod Langway. Taking Staal off our current roster--leaving the rest of our defense as is--would be very painful. So yeah--you guys are going to have give up something that's going to hurt you to get him and I'm sorry but Thomas Fleischmann, Anton Gustafsson and a late 1st rounder just doesn't cut it. Maybe all good players but no player in that package is likely to become a key component of your team. Staal is a key component of the Rangers team and he's more developed than Carlson is. Carlson has a good chance of becoming a great player--Staal is a guaranteed great d-man. Maybe not HOF material but really really good. So that's why Carlson +.
Staal may one day get to the level of Rod Langway. He's not there and has a long way to go. Make no mistake, I would love to have him on the CAPS but lets not go over board with his CURRENT value. Once he has signed back with the rags then his value will increase for certain but until he does, his value is not even close to what the NY fans want and is above what the original offer was.


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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Agree w/this.
M Staal is already a lower level elite player + improving, IMO; and as a shut down specialist has few peers.
Thus Staal is not untouchable, but not likely even in Coke for Pepsi, an elite for an elite. Only see him going in a package for more total talent, likely an uber-elite (think Malkin, etc.).
I understand your point of requiring more value to pry him away but he's not even close to the value you mentioned.

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Old
09-10-2010, 10:45 AM
  #35
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It is possible for the following statements to both be true. They are not mutually exclusive.

'Marc Staal is a very valuable player whose trade value is very high.'

'The Capitals would not trade John Carlson at this point in time.'

The basis for this discussion is the notion that the Caps are enamored with Staal, but the reality is far more likely that they value him, as do most teams, but that there are any number of scenarios where they would walk away from talks for his rights. Carlson would be one such deal breaker. That isn't a slight on Staal, or really a commentary on Staal at all. It's a testament to the team's feelings about its own player, in Carlson.

Staal signing with the Rangers within a week or so still makes the most sense to me.

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Old
09-10-2010, 11:57 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fallschirmyager View Post
Staal may one day get to the level of Rod Langway. He's not there and has a long way to go. Make no mistake, I would love to have him on the CAPS but lets not go over board with his CURRENT value. Once he has signed back with the rags then his value will increase for certain but until he does, his value is not even close to what the NY fans want and is above what the original offer was.




I understand your point of requiring more value to pry him away but he's not even close to the value you mentioned.
Seriouly im getting very tired of this ******** and defending staal from other teams fans about underrating him and his current value. Just bc he is an RFA right now doesnt mean he wont be signed. if your going to offer us a deal for staal, offer it to us as if he is a signed player bc thats what he will be very soon. His value is exactly what we ny fans what, its just the fact that you dont wanna pony up for a #1 Franchise dman that can do it all and is still getting better every year while ONLY being 23yo. If your not willing to give up what is necessary to get staal then dont bother offering us trades. Simple as that He is a top end defensive talent if you like it or not..

You can see how talented he is when he shuts down the likes or crosby, malkin or ovechkin urselfs. if he went to any team it would take serious compensation and him paired with mike green would instantly make u a top contendor for the cup, since he would shut down the other teams top star for you. Staal would command a top end elite talent if we were to trade him.


Last edited by Chalfdiggity3: 09-10-2010 at 12:01 PM. Reason: wanted to add another paragraph to what i wrote and didnt want to write in another reply bc it goes best with my response
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Old
09-10-2010, 12:20 PM
  #37
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Seriouly im getting very tired of this ******** and defending staal from other teams fans about underrating him and his current value. Just bc he is an RFA right now doesnt mean he wont be signed. if your going to offer us a deal for staal, offer it to us as if he is a signed player bc thats what he will be very soon. His value is exactly what we ny fans what, its just the fact that you dont wanna pony up for a #1 Franchise dman that can do it all and is still getting better every year while ONLY being 23yo. If your not willing to give up what is necessary to get staal then dont bother offering us trades. Simple as that He is a top end defensive talent if you like it or not..

You can see how talented he is when he shuts down the likes or crosby, malkin or ovechkin urselfs. if he went to any team it would take serious compensation and him paired with mike green would instantly make u a top contendor for the cup, since he would shut down the other teams top star for you. Staal would command a top end elite talent if we were to trade him.
You're trying to argue what hasn't happened yet and demanding what you think is that associated value. Until he signs the paper, he is not signed. period. A fully signed and in the fold Staal is still NOT worth a player of Malkins level. Period.

I am fully aware that the addition of Staal would make the CAPS blue line an instant cup contender. Look back at my quotes and you'll see that I've said as much myself. I also said these two teams are not good trading partners.

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:25 PM
  #38
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what about something built around semin and staal?
Not that we have any intention whatsoever of trading Staal, but no. Semin makes 6 mil and has 1 year left until UFA. If he were a center, maybe, but still doubtful.

We can't afford to lose Staal from our defense. It's as simple as that.

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09-10-2010, 01:23 PM
  #39
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[QUOTE=Fallschirmyager;27722131....
I understand your point of requiring more value to pry him away but he's not even close to the value you mentioned.[/QUOTE]

Disagree.
And my main point was avoiding coke for pepsi, or vice versa, so to speak, so a real upgrade, from someone already elite and getting better, would be key to make it worthwhile.

E.g., not looking to move M. Staal or Gabborik;
But M. Staal + Gabborik + Gilroy + NYR #1 for Malkin + LeTang + PP #2 looks like what you'd hold out a Staal for.

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Old
09-10-2010, 02:04 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Fallschirmyager View Post
Staal may one day get to the level of Rod Langway. He's not there and has a long way to go. Make no mistake, I would love to have him on the CAPS but lets not go over board with his CURRENT value. Once he has signed back with the rags then his value will increase for certain but until he does, his value is not even close to what the NY fans want and is above what the original offer was.




I understand your point of requiring more value to pry him away but he's not even close to the value you mentioned.
If it were only as simple as relative values--but it's not. I think you need to ask yourself how Staal would fit into your team and then whether or not he would be worth Carlson +. Adding Staal for a package revolving around Carlson--the Caps would still have their high octane offense in place--and now they would have a guy who they could target elite players with. Adding Staal would improve their chances of getting a Cup at least in the next couple years. After that Carlson may or not be at the same level that Staal is now and it might seem more a wash. At least in the relatively near future he should make your team significantly better.

From a Rangers perspective the original proposal where we move Staal for Fleischmann, Gustaffson and a 1st doesn't make us a better team but worse--and probably a lot worse defensively. In fact it would be a gamble (and with not particularly good odds) whether it ever would make the Rangers better and even beyond that it doesn't even address our biggest needs. I'm not interested in arguing whether those three players are fair value or not. I'd rather argue about whether moving Staal will bring back something that makes us better. A package revolving around Carlson would be a significant upgrade to the original proposal. We would not be a better team next year but at least there's a good chance that in the relative near future (2-3 years) we might be better for having made the deal.

So you can argue fair value all you want and that's nice but this deal works for your team a lot better than it does for ours.

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09-10-2010, 02:09 PM
  #41
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You're being charitable with the OP. That proposal was terribly lopsided in favor of Washington.

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09-10-2010, 02:46 PM
  #42
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Well which is why youve got to give to get and the rangers will be looking for a player who can either be somewhat close to his level of play or a young player who could eventually be there why getting a young proven center or potential #1 center. if carlson or alzner arent going to the rangers the other way then you wont get staal period. Rangers dont want or need flash bc hes a 2/3rd line center, never will be a top center just dont see it in him, and the other player isnt worth it while getting a late 1st rnd pick in a weak draft. no thanks.. gotta give to get. maybe semin, and carlson for staal and someone else
Are you serious??? Someone else better be Gabs.

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09-10-2010, 04:31 PM
  #43
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Disagree.
And my main point was avoiding coke for pepsi, or vice versa, so to speak, so a real upgrade, from someone already elite and getting better, would be key to make it worthwhile.

E.g., not looking to move M. Staal or Gabborik;
But M. Staal + Gabborik + Gilroy + NYR #1 for Malkin + LeTang + PP #2 looks like what you'd hold out a Staal for
.
I understood your point the from the first. The Hypothetical you listed proves my point. Not one GM in the league would trade Malkin for Staal straight up. You have to add pieces to "even it out". I agree the OP value was way off and said switching out Johansson would be more interesting as his upside in way above the original offer but that would only be a starter. It would not be the final deal.

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If it were only as simple as relative values--but it's not. I think you need to ask yourself how Staal would fit into your team and then whether or not he would be worth Carlson +. Adding Staal for a package revolving around Carlson--the Caps would still have their high octane offense in place--and now they would have a guy who they could target elite players with. Adding Staal would improve their chances of getting a Cup at least in the next couple years. After that Carlson may or not be at the same level that Staal is now and it might seem more a wash. At least in the relatively near future he should make your team significantly better.

From a Rangers perspective the original proposal where we move Staal for Fleischmann, Gustaffson and a 1st doesn't make us a better team but worse--and probably a lot worse defensively. In fact it would be a gamble (and with not particularly good odds) whether it ever would make the Rangers better and even beyond that it doesn't even address our biggest needs. I'm not interested in arguing whether those three players are fair value or not. I'd rather argue about whether moving Staal will bring back something that makes us better. A package revolving around Carlson would be a significant upgrade to the original proposal. We would not be a better team next year but at least there's a good chance that in the relative near future (2-3 years) we might be better for having made the deal.

So you can argue fair value all you want and that's nice but this deal works for your team a lot better than it does for ours.
I agree the original offer was way off and said so. I also said these two teams were not good partners for at least this particular player anyway. As to your question would Staals impact be worth Carlson? At this point, I'd say no for two reasons. 1. So far, Carlson has out stripped any and all near term projections for his development and he's only 20. He has the chance to be an elite 2 way D. 2. ELC. Carlson will be a dern site cheaper over the next couple of seasons and that will play better into our hands.

I'll say it again, I'd LOVE to have him on the CAPS. Just not at the asking price that Sather would demand.

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09-10-2010, 04:49 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fallschirmyager View Post
I understood your point the from the first. The Hypothetical you listed proves my point. Not one GM in the league would trade Malkin for Staal straight up. You have to add pieces to "even it out". I agree the OP value was way off and said switching out Johansson would be more interesting as his upside in way above the original offer but that would only be a starter. It would not be the final deal.



I agree the original offer was way off and said so. I also said these two teams were not good partners for at least this particular player anyway. As to your question would Staals impact be worth Carlson? At this point, I'd say no for two reasons. 1. So far, Carlson has out stripped any and all near term projections for his development and he's only 20. He has the chance to be an elite 2 way D. 2. ELC. Carlson will be a dern site cheaper over the next couple of seasons and that will play better into our hands.

I'll say it again, I'd LOVE to have him on the CAPS. Just not at the asking price that Sather would demand.
and because you are not willing to give up the necessary demands of what the rangers would want in return for staal means you will NOT aquire him. If your not willing to pay the price for a #1 Franchise defensman who is a two way player then dont expect to be able to trade for staal. The proposals that were mentioned for staal are not good for the rangers and therefore will not happen. If we were to trade staal it would be to upgrade our team, not downgrade.

I guess well end up finding out if carlson becomes that player that your mentioning but right now its all "potential" talks, while staal already is that player. Can we close this thread? im getting tired of people tryin to underrate staal and **** us in a deal. With sather at the helm, who is a mastermind in trades, that will never happen. The caps and rangers dont make good trade partners plain and simple.

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09-10-2010, 05:45 PM
  #45
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Well I'll preface this by saying I really don't like the Caps. Even so IMO they have a several year window in which they should be a prime contender for a Cup or even more but they may have to wait until Carlson and Alzner grow into their roles. Staal could possibly help them to get there faster. So it could be worth it to them if they were able to work out a deal. Staal is really the man on the Rangers defense and he does remind me of Langway--except he needs to reach further into himself and become more consistent. His coach seems to want to push him up the ice more and I'm not sure that makes him a better player. He's not a player you judge on points produced.

I'm 98% sure the Rangers are going to sign him and not trade him. We've had numerous posters from a variety of teams lately making all kinds of offers and almost all of them leave our team in worse shape when the smoke clears. Most of them are multiple player/prospects deals for Staal. A lot of those players/prospects are very good but they are also superfluos/replaceable within their own organizations. Staal is not very replaceable at all--at least not for us.

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09-10-2010, 06:15 PM
  #46
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It might well be true, and it's a widely discussed (ad nauseum) issue for Caps fans, but the team has clearly not been making moves to jump start its window. Whether it works out or not, they're banking on Carlson and Alzner to be key players when/if the Caps make a run. Adding lots of veterans, or even swapping futures for players in their prime, clearly isn't happening.

Does that mean they might still be a raw team this year? You betcha! It doesn't in any way change the way that the GM has been building his team, abstaining from moves that suggest he's going for it in the present. The Caps, the way McPhee is running them, figure to be competitive when Alzner and Carlson are ready. He's tied their fate to the year that Green-Schultz-Alzner-Carlson constitute Washington's seasoned top four.

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09-10-2010, 06:27 PM
  #47
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When trading for a player you never trade for his "actual value" so to speak, you trade for what his worth to his current team (I'm assuming we are talking about an important player here) therefore you ALWAYS have to overpay.
Since fans of either team tend to overrate their own players, and also refuse to overpay, this part of the forum is pretty much a constant pissing contest, which I find hilarious. So keep it up

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09-10-2010, 07:01 PM
  #48
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and because you are not willing to give up the necessary demands of what the rangers would want in return for staal means you will NOT aquire him. If your not willing to pay the price for a #1 Franchise defensman who is a two way player then dont expect to be able to trade for staal. The proposals that were mentioned for staal are not good for the rangers and therefore will not happen. If we were to trade staal it would be to upgrade our team, not downgrade.

I guess well end up finding out if carlson becomes that player that your mentioning but right now its all "potential" talks, while staal already is that player. Can we close this thread? im getting tired of people tryin to underrate staal and **** us in a deal. With sather at the helm, who is a mastermind in trades, that will never happen. The caps and rangers dont make good trade partners plain and simple.
I seem to recall writing that very thing several time to include the post you quoted. Did you miss it?


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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Well I'll preface this by saying I really don't like the Caps. Even so IMO they have a several year window in which they should be a prime contender for a Cup or even more but they may have to wait until Carlson and Alzner grow into their roles. Staal could possibly help them to get there faster. So it could be worth it to them if they were able to work out a deal. Staal is really the man on the Rangers defense and he does remind me of Langway--except he needs to reach further into himself and become more consistent. His coach seems to want to push him up the ice more and I'm not sure that makes him a better player. He's not a player you judge on points produced.

I'm 98% sure the Rangers are going to sign him and not trade him. We've had numerous posters from a variety of teams lately making all kinds of offers and almost all of them leave our team in worse shape when the smoke clears. Most of them are multiple player/prospects deals for Staal. A lot of those players/prospects are very good but they are also superfluos/replaceable within their own organizations. Staal is not very replaceable at all--at least not for us.
I'd say no chance what so ever they don't sign/match. As I said, Sather should be out the door if Staal is not in the opening lineup at the start of the season. There is NO excuse beyond an ignorant trade offer or he is injured. Staal is a player you make every effort to make your cornerstone as long as he is playing.

For the record, I don't like any sports teams or non military entity that uses the name Ranger. They're not and never will be.

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09-10-2010, 07:22 PM
  #49
eco's bones
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
It might well be true, and it's a widely discussed (ad nauseum) issue for Caps fans, but the team has clearly not been making moves to jump start its window. Whether it works out or not, they're banking on Carlson and Alzner to be key players when/if the Caps make a run. Adding lots of veterans, or even swapping futures for players in their prime, clearly isn't happening.

Does that mean they might still be a raw team this year? You betcha! It doesn't in any way change the way that the GM has been building his team, abstaining from moves that suggest he's going for it in the present. The Caps, the way McPhee is running them, figure to be competitive when Alzner and Carlson are ready. He's tied their fate to the year that Green-Schultz-Alzner-Carlson constitute Washington's seasoned top four.
It's not necessarily a bad situation. GM's need to be careful. Even teams that do go for it--like Philly and Chicago last year find themselves shedding key veterans not able to keep their teams together because of cap issues. Even having elite players I don't think it's possible anymore for a team to become dominant for any length of time like the 70's Canadiens teams or the 80's Islander and Oiler teams. You've always got to have quality young players coming in. Even if your team does not win in that window the next several years should be fun for your fans to watch.

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09-10-2010, 07:29 PM
  #50
eco's bones
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Originally Posted by Fallschirmyager View Post
I seem to recall writing that very thing several time to include the post you quoted. Did you miss it?




I'd say no chance what so ever they don't sign/match. As I said, Sather should be out the door if Staal is not in the opening lineup at the start of the season. There is NO excuse beyond an ignorant trade offer or he is injured. Staal is a player you make every effort to make your cornerstone as long as he is playing.

For the record, I don't like any sports teams or non military entity that uses the name Ranger. They're not and never will be.
Being Irish in heritage there's no way I'd be a Rangers fan if I lived in Britain or Ireland. That wasn't the reason the original founder had--nor was there a militaristic reason either. Not that I've been all over-so take it for what it's worth but to me NYC is the best city of all. New York Rangers fans are die hards and I like that. Stick with their team even over long periods of losing. They tend to hate their owners and management though.

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