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Old
09-10-2010, 07:39 PM
  #51
Fallschirmyager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Being Irish in heritage there's no way I'd be a Rangers fan if I lived in Britain or Ireland. That wasn't the reason the original founder had--nor was there a militaristic reason either. Not that I've been all over-so take it for what it's worth but to me NYC is the best city of all. New York Rangers fans are die hards and I like that. Stick with their team even over long periods of losing. They tend to hate their owners and management though.
I'm not a fan of city life. Just too busy. Normally I don't have too many issues with hockey fans in general but occasionally there is someone that the debate will go on ad nauseum with no headway made either way. It is what it is.

The "ranger" comment was an inside joke.

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09-10-2010, 09:36 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
It is possible for the following statements to both be true. They are not mutually exclusive.

'Marc Staal is a very valuable player whose trade value is very high.'

'The Capitals would not trade John Carlson at this point in time.'

The basis for this discussion is the notion that the Caps are enamored with Staal, but the reality is far more likely that they value him, as do most teams, but that there are any number of scenarios where they would walk away from talks for his rights. Carlson would be one such deal breaker. That isn't a slight on Staal, or really a commentary on Staal at all. It's a testament to the team's feelings about its own player, in Carlson.

Staal signing with the Rangers within a week or so still makes the most sense to me.
Post of the thread in my opinion.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:34 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fallschirmyager View Post
I understood your point the from the first. The Hypothetical you listed proves my point. Not one GM in the league would trade Malkin for Staal straight up. You have to add pieces to "even it out". I agree the OP value was way off and said switching out Johansson would be more interesting as his upside in way above the original offer but that would only be a starter. It would not be the final deal. ....
I never said "straight up".
I believe I said something about a "package".
I haven't figured out the multi-quote feature incl from 2 diff. posts.
Will immediately quote my original post following.

My original point remains.
Yes, be open minded to every reasonable offer.
But as to a bottom line of what is NYR best interests to actually do a deal, don't see M. Staal going anywhere unless an uber-elite comes the other way.
{At present that's Crosby, Ovechkin, [neither going anywhere, plus AO has issues w/his talent], + Malkin (extreme outside chance he'd be considered for the right price, and more likely to be at least 2 years away, and only then because his contract is up after 4 years. There are a couple of guys like Stamkos knocking on the door of the uber elite club.}

In conclusion, to have the hopes/best chance of getting an uber elite player, you need a special/elite guy as part of what you are adding to trade up. Moving Staal for less than uber-elite is coke for pepsi, and eliminates any such trade up if that option does present itself.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:36 AM
  #54
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Agree w/this.
M Staal is already a lower level elite player + improving, IMO; and as a shut down specialist has few peers.
Thus Staal is not untouchable, but not likely even in Coke for Pepsi, an elite for an elite. Only see him going in a package for more total talent, likely an uber-elite (think Malkin, etc.).
This was my original quote; "package" is as I indicated.

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Old
09-11-2010, 11:04 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechkin007 View Post
Tomas Fleishmann
2011 1st Round Pick
Anton Gustaffson
Is this the new Ryder, Halak, 2nd?

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Old
09-11-2010, 11:10 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
It's not necessarily a bad situation. GM's need to be careful. Even teams that do go for it--like Philly and Chicago last year find themselves shedding key veterans not able to keep their teams together because of cap issues. Even having elite players I don't think it's possible anymore for a team to become dominant for any length of time like the 70's Canadiens teams or the 80's Islander and Oiler teams. You've always got to have quality young players coming in. Even if your team does not win in that window the next several years should be fun for your fans to watch.
My read is that McPhee feels like he has nothing to lose by playing for the long run. He can wait for Carlson, Alzner, Johansson, Varlamov and Neuvirth to fully develope at the NHL level.

While the Caps failed to win the Cup the past two years they had a reasonable chance at winning the cup in both seasons. They very well could have been a couple of goals away from the finals in both cases(1 OT goal in game 3vs Pitt and at anytime v Montreal).

They lost but they remain a contender each season while at the develope 4 or 5 young impact players. You could make a case that they had the best record in the NHL last season with one arm tied behind their back.

Now, this method could utterly fail. Only time and more hockey will tell.

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Old
09-11-2010, 11:21 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
You're being charitable with the OP. That proposal was terribly lopsided in favor of Washington.
I've stopped ripping people who are so ignorant about Staal now and just reply with the simple, "Nope." Makes life easier.

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Old
09-11-2010, 02:27 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I never said "straight up".
I believe I said something about a "package".
I haven't figured out the multi-quote feature incl from 2 diff. posts.
Will immediately quote my original post following.

My original point remains.
Yes, be open minded to every reasonable offer.
But as to a bottom line of what is NYR best interests to actually do a deal, don't see M. Staal going anywhere unless an uber-elite comes the other way.
{At present that's Crosby, Ovechkin, [neither going anywhere, plus AO has issues w/his talent], + Malkin (extreme outside chance he'd be considered for the right price, and more likely to be at least 2 years away, and only then because his contract is up after 4 years. There are a couple of guys like Stamkos knocking on the door of the uber elite club.}

In conclusion, to have the hopes/best chance of getting an uber elite player, you need a special/elite guy as part of what you are adding to trade up. Moving Staal for less than uber-elite is coke for pepsi, and eliminates any such trade up if that option does present itself.
Huh? Could you please explain what you mean there??


Last edited by sldyer1: 09-11-2010 at 02:35 PM. Reason: rewording
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Old
09-11-2010, 02:32 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Moving Staal for less than uber-elite is coke for pepsi, and eliminates any such trade up if that option does present itself.
no..

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Old
09-11-2010, 02:35 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sldyer1 View Post
WTF? Could you please explain what you mean there??
hes not good enough for staal straight up.

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Old
09-11-2010, 02:37 PM
  #61
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On behalf of all Ranger fans, I apologize for the ignorance of Bermeister.

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Old
09-11-2010, 02:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Franzen93 View Post
On behalf of all Ranger fans, I apologize for the ignorance of Bermeister.
dont worry, i wouldnt (who would?) assume he speaks for the majority of rangers fandom. Just an amusing post.

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Old
09-11-2010, 03:38 PM
  #63
080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Agree w/this.
M Staal is already a lower level elite player + improving, IMO; and as a shut down specialist has few peers.
Thus Staal is not untouchable, but not likely even in Coke for Pepsi, an elite for an elite. Only see him going in a package for more total talent, likely an uber-elite (think Malkin, etc.).
That's just ridiculous. Malkin is on par with Ovechkin, Crosby and a few others for the best player in the league -- why not ask the Caps for Ovechkin? Seeing as how that's fair-value.

Staal is a very good player but let's not go nuts here -- he's not a franchise-player and he's not an elite-player.

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Old
09-11-2010, 03:46 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I never said "straight up".
I believe I said something about a "package".
I haven't figured out the multi-quote feature incl from 2 diff. posts.
Will immediately quote my original post following.

My original point remains.
Yes, be open minded to every reasonable offer.
But as to a bottom line of what is NYR best interests to actually do a deal, don't see M. Staal going anywhere unless an uber-elite comes the other way.
{At present that's Crosby, Ovechkin, [neither going anywhere, plus AO has issues w/his talent], + Malkin (extreme outside chance he'd be considered for the right price, and more likely to be at least 2 years away, and only then because his contract is up after 4 years. There are a couple of guys like Stamkos knocking on the door of the uber elite club.}

In conclusion, to have the hopes/best chance of getting an uber elite player, you need a special/elite guy as part of what you are adding to trade up. Moving Staal for less than uber-elite is coke for pepsi, and eliminates any such trade up if that option does present itself.
?????????
And who uses the word "uber"?

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Old
09-11-2010, 08:12 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 080 View Post
That's just ridiculous. Malkin is on par with Ovechkin, Crosby and a few others for the best player in the league -- why not ask the Caps for Ovechkin? Seeing as how that's fair-value.

Staal is a very good player but let's not go nuts here -- he's not a franchise-player and he's not an elite-player.
Maybe if you'd read, you'd see that he's not suggesting straight up. My goodness. I really question if people fully read posts on here sometimes. He's only saying (which I pretty much agree with) that we should only move Staal if an elite forward is coming back (and he specifically mentioned in a package).

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Old
09-11-2010, 08:23 PM
  #66
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Was bernmeister the poster who suggested the three-way trade that would land the Penguins Kovalchuk with the prupose of forming the SUPREME LINE?

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Old
09-11-2010, 08:26 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Maybe if you'd read, you'd see that he's not suggesting straight up. My goodness. I really question if people fully read posts on here sometimes. He's only saying (which I pretty much agree with) that we should only move Staal if an elite forward is coming back (and he specifically mentioned in a package).
He said he would only trade staal for only an uber-elite talent. So unless its a 3 way trade with crosby and ovy going to ny, its straight up. l2read

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Old
09-11-2010, 08:28 PM
  #68
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And he listed Jonathan the players (crosby, malkin, not so much ovy) were the uber-elite he would only trade staal for.

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Old
09-11-2010, 08:59 PM
  #69
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by sldyer1 View Post
Huh? Could you please explain what you mean there??
That was hastily and not more correctly worded.
What I meant to say was, AO is undoubtedly top three talent wise in the league, but he has accusers, and they say he comes with issues, which accusations if true would be a concern despite his world class talent.

More specifically, and here do not shoot the messenger, I would have alluded to posts over the past few months indicating that IN THEIR OPINION, allegedly, like Ty Cobb was known to come in spikes first when stealing bases, AO, again allegedly, does not, or does not adequately, make effort to not hit a player (even if in the face) who is going down --- or is already down (and helpless) --- to block a shot.
In other words, he is not just capable of playing tough, but even dirty or truly mean.

Some don't want him, if that is the case.
I don't know that such is true. But from what little I have seen of Ovechkin, I wouldn't jump to a conclusion one way or the other without actual facts.

I regret the poor wording; thank you for bringing it to my attention. I stand by this clarification.


Last edited by bernmeister: 09-11-2010 at 09:59 PM. Reason: typo correction
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Old
09-11-2010, 09:03 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Maybe if you'd read, you'd see that he's not suggesting straight up. My goodness. I really question if people fully read posts on here sometimes. He's only saying (which I pretty much agree with) that we should only move Staal if an elite forward is coming back (and he specifically mentioned in a package).
Does it matter? If Shero picked up the phone and heard "Marc Staal + some other **** that might be OK for Malkin" -- he's going to hang up the phone. If Staal is the centerpiece for a deal for Malkin then that's just not going to happen.

Please, put together a package for me -- with Staal -- that NY would trade to Pittsburgh for Malkin.

I would think players like Backes, Kesler, Pominville, etc. would be of the same calibre as Staal -- in terms of worth.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:07 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
That was hastily and not more correctly worded.
What I meant to say was, AO is undoubtedly top three talent wise in the league, but he has accusers, and they say he comes with issues, which accusations if true would be a concern despite his world class talent.

More specifically, and here do not shoot the messenger, I would have alluded to posts over the past few months indicating that IN THEIR OPINION, allegedly, like Ty Cobb was known to come in spikes first when stealing bases, AO, again allegedly, does not, or does not adequately, make effort to not hit a player (even if in the face) who is going down --- or is already down (and helpless) --- to block a shot.
In other words, he is not just capable of playing tough, but even dirty or truly mean.

Some don't want him, if that is the case.
I don't know that such is true. But from what little I have seen of Ovechkin, I wouldn't jump to a conclusion one way or the other without actual facts.

I regret the poor wording; thank you for bring it to my attention. I stand by this clarification.
This post makes even less sense.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:09 PM
  #72
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRASHCAT View Post
no..
Yes.
Respectfully we agree to disagree.
However, as to part of what I said, there is an inescapable logic.
If you trade top player like Staal, he is no longer available for an ultra top player (whichever we agree fits the bill).

You would have whomever you got for Staal.
If that isn't enough to get your ultra top player, you made a bad deal.

Staal is not untouchable, but IMO shouldn't be traded for equal talent, which is not as likely to really help as trading him with other assets for even superior talent.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:12 PM
  #73
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No, bermeister, we need a super ultra top player for Staal. Crosby+ or no dice.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:14 PM
  #74
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Washington fans are really overvaluing their players here.

EDIT: Actually, both sides are.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:16 PM
  #75
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by TRASHCAT View Post
hes not good enough for staal straight up.
please note Jonathan's post.
"Maybe if you'd read, you'd see that he's not suggesting straight up."... etc.
Thank you Jonathan.

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