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Kariya vs. Fleury

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Old
09-10-2010, 03:53 PM
  #1
IggyFan12
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Kariya vs. Fleury

Who would you rather have on your team in career and peak. Both players had flashes of brilliance, suffered injuries(Kariya concussion Fleury Inner Demons), both were small wingers, and both finished at or just above 1 ppg in their career.

Career Stats:
Kariya-989 games 402goals 587assists 989 points.
Kariya won a Gold medal in the 2002 Olympics, Lost in game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals in 03, had 1 50 goal season and 2 100 point season.

Fleury- 1084games 455goals 633 assists 1088 points.
Fleury won the cup as a rookie in 89, won a Gold medal in 02, only twice made it past the second round of the playoffs however, and had 1 50 goal season and 2 100 point seasons.

For me I would say Kariya for prime and Fleury for career. Both players have us stuck wondering what could have been, but they were both pretty good players in their prime. For me I think Kariya was just a notch better than Fleury but both are so similar.

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09-10-2010, 04:46 PM
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Rhiessan71
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For the regular season, I'd give the edge to Kariya but for the playoff's I'd take Fleury no questions asked.
Fleury was always a big game scorer.

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09-10-2010, 05:06 PM
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Dissonance
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
For the regular season, I'd give the edge to Kariya but for the playoff's I'd take Fleury no questions asked.
Fleury was always a big game scorer.
I'd take Fleury over Kariya in the playoffs, too, but I've also always thought Fleury's clutch reputation was somewhat overstated. Yes, he put up some spectacular numbers during Calgary's string of first-round losses in the '90s, but he could also be incredibly inconsistent.

The series against San Jose in '95 was a good example. Fleury was invisible for the first two games and the Sharks go up 2-0. Then he just starts playing out of his mind—four assists in Game 3, four goals and an assist in Game 4, two goals in Game 5—and Calgary's back up 3-2. But then Fleury's held pointless in Game 6 and had I think a single assist in Game 7 as the Sharks come back to win the series. (Though, in fairness, Flaherty was ridiculous in Game 7 and Fleury had a number of good chances.) In the end, Fleury ends up averaging two points a game but he was a non-factor in at least three Calgary losses.

Not bashing Fleury at all—he was still the best player, by far, on those Calgary teams. Just noting that he could be streaky and opponents often seemed to be able to neutralize him when it counted.

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09-10-2010, 07:13 PM
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Big Phil
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Hard to argue with a peak Kariya. I say this pretending NOT to know all about his career collapse. But if this were 1997 can you really say that you saw Fleury play as good as a peak Kariya who finished 2nd in Hart voting? I can't.

Now playoffs is a different story. Fleury was much better than Kariya who had maybe one (1997) decent playoff year. I'd trust him in a pressure situation over Kariya hands down. And for overall career I'd lean towards Fleury by a bit.

I think one of the biggest mysteries in NHL history is the sudden decline of Kariya. Maybe the Suter hit can be attributed to it as well, and I think that made him a little more passive and soft, but even so he had a 101 point season the year after the hit. I think his decline started around the time Selanne left but even then he wasn't a bad player. It was 2003-'04 where he has never been the same. A little bit of injuries that year sure, but he went from being a slam dunk decision in 2003 for the 2004 World Cup to an irrelevant part of the landscape of the NHL within a year. Post lockout he's existed in the NHL, that's as far as I would go. When the NHL resumed play in 2005 he was still 30 years old. This should have been his style of game but he's fallen so hard so fast and I can't really figure out why.

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09-10-2010, 07:46 PM
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Form and Substance
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hard to argue with a peak Kariya. I say this pretending NOT to know all about his career collapse. But if this were 1997 can you really say that you saw Fleury play as good as a peak Kariya who finished 2nd in Hart voting? I can't.

Now playoffs is a different story. Fleury was much better than Kariya who had maybe one (1997) decent playoff year. I'd trust him in a pressure situation over Kariya hands down. And for overall career I'd lean towards Fleury by a bit.

I think one of the biggest mysteries in NHL history is the sudden decline of Kariya. Maybe the Suter hit can be attributed to it as well, and I think that made him a little more passive and soft, but even so he had a 101 point season the year after the hit. I think his decline started around the time Selanne left but even then he wasn't a bad player. It was 2003-'04 where he has never been the same. A little bit of injuries that year sure, but he went from being a slam dunk decision in 2003 for the 2004 World Cup to an irrelevant part of the landscape of the NHL within a year. Post lockout he's existed in the NHL, that's as far as I would go. When the NHL resumed play in 2005 he was still 30 years old. This should have been his style of game but he's fallen so hard so fast and I can't really figure out why.
I think you're selling post '98 Kariya a little short. He had two pretty good years after the lockout and was pretty good in 2002-2003. He was after all a second team all star that year. I generally tend to think that Kariya gets a little underrated around these parts, he was a premier offensive player for at least 4 seasons. And had not missed most of the 97-98 season, I'm convinced he would have taken home the art ross and the hart that year. He was a dominant offensive force. A top 5 player for a couple of years at his peak. That's more than you can say for a whole host of HHOF enshrined players. Fleury's tenacity and heart may get him more votes, but a peak Kariya is a clearly superior weapon.

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09-10-2010, 07:49 PM
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Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
I'd take Fleury over Kariya in the playoffs, too, but I've also always thought Fleury's clutch reputation was somewhat overstated. Yes, he put up some spectacular numbers during Calgary's string of first-round losses in the '90s, but he could also be incredibly inconsistent.

The series against San Jose in '95 was a good example. Fleury was invisible for the first two games and the Sharks go up 2-0. Then he just starts playing out of his mind—four assists in Game 3, four goals and an assist in Game 4, two goals in Game 5—and Calgary's back up 3-2. But then Fleury's held pointless in Game 6 and had I think a single assist in Game 7 as the Sharks come back to win the series. (Though, in fairness, Flaherty was ridiculous in Game 7 and Fleury had a number of good chances.) In the end, Fleury ends up averaging two points a game but he was a non-factor in at least three Calgary losses.

Not bashing Fleury at all—he was still the best player, by far, on those Calgary teams. Just noting that he could be streaky and opponents often seemed to be able to neutralize him when it counted.
Oh, no doubt he was inconsistent here and there but compared to Kariya in the playoff's, no brainer for me.

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09-10-2010, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
I think you're selling post '98 Kariya a little short. He had two pretty good years after the lockout and was pretty good in 2002-2003. He was after all a second team all star that year. I generally tend to think that Kariya gets a little underrated around these parts, he was a premier offensive player for at least 4 seasons. And had not missed most of the 97-98 season, I'm convinced he would have taken home the art ross and the hart that year. He was a dominant offensive force. A top 5 player for a couple of years at his peak. That's more than you can say for a whole host of HHOF enshrined players. Fleury's tenacity and heart may get him more votes, but a peak Kariya is a clearly superior weapon.
I loved Kariya during his prime, but saying he would win art ross and hart solely due to what he did in 22 games is kinda silly. In the first half of the 2000 season, Pavel Bure was on pace to score 130 points, did he actually do that in the end, no.

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09-10-2010, 09:34 PM
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Form and Substance
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I loved Kariya during his prime, but saying he would win art ross and hart solely due to what he did in 22 games is kinda silly. In the first half of the 2000 season, Pavel Bure was on pace to score 130 points, did he actually do that in the end, no.
Is it really? He'd just come off a 99pts season (in 69 games) and was widely regarded as the most dynamic forward in the game. He finished 2nd in the hart votes for two years straight. And Mario was no longer in the way. He was only 22 as well, the sky was the limit.

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09-10-2010, 10:53 PM
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Nobody was going to beat Hasek for the Hart in 1998. I do like this poll though, Fleury for playoffs, kariya for peak.

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09-11-2010, 09:22 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Kariya for both but it's really close.

At the end of the day Kariya was one of the best 5 players in the world for several years, not really sure we can say that about Fleury.

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09-11-2010, 10:52 PM
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Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
I think you're selling post '98 Kariya a little short. He had two pretty good years after the lockout and was pretty good in 2002-2003. He was after all a second team all star that year. I generally tend to think that Kariya gets a little underrated around these parts, he was a premier offensive player for at least 4 seasons. And had not missed most of the 97-98 season, I'm convinced he would have taken home the art ross and the hart that year. He was a dominant offensive force. A top 5 player for a couple of years at his peak. That's more than you can say for a whole host of HHOF enshrined players. Fleury's tenacity and heart may get him more votes, but a peak Kariya is a clearly superior weapon.
Well as you can see I did choose Kariya in his prime, I haven't forgotten the force he was back then. But we saw a different side of him post 1998. He seemed a little less fearless before that, certainly not reckless (he won two Byngs), but it was almost to the point where he looked so dangerous out there more carefree. After the Suter check he was more passive. He as timid. He still had 101 points in 1999 and I'll give him credit for the bounce back season but Selanne wore the pants on that line now from what I saw. In all honesty I'm not sure it's possible to have a quiet 101 point season, but Kariya did just that.

As time went on he started to fall by the wayside. By 2003 it was his third season in a row where he wasn't among the NHL elite anymore. Sure he was a 2nd team all-star, but it was at the weak LW position and even then he was 13th in scoring while brining little else to the table. You had the feeling he would redeem himself when he went to Colorado but injuries and indifferent play are what that awful season represented. The final straw was not being invited to the World Cup in 2004.

So while I am saying it is a shame how young he was when he finally became invisible in the NHL I am still able to isolate his prime with Fleury's. I still choose Kariya's. But career wise it is Fleury unless Kariya does something amazing all of the sudden

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09-11-2010, 10:57 PM
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Loto68
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So while I am saying it is a shame how young he was when he finally became invisible in the NHL I am still able to isolate his prime with Fleury's. I still choose Kariya's. But career wise it is Fleury unless Kariya does something amazing all of the sudden
As much as I hate the Pens, I love Kariya, and the best way for him to have a great come back would be to take a small salary and act as the playmaker to Crosby's goal scoring.

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09-12-2010, 05:34 PM
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Close but Fleury

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