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Zherdev switches to #93, Guerin given #9 (Possible implications)

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Old
09-15-2010, 11:12 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
So you're expecting Guerin to score 20 goals while playing on the 3rd line? How do you expect that to happen?

I'd rather not have him anywhere near this team, but that doesn't look like that's going to happen. The Flyers are replacing a young, inexpensive, enery player like Powe with an aging, slowing *******. Brilliant work. Really. ****ing brilliant.

Homer is ****ing up this team with every move he makes. It's so sad.
I think it's quite likely Guerin will get to 20 playing with one of Richards, Carter, or Briere. Could he be below that... sure. However, that's certainly not a huge reach. In fact, he's riding 4 consecutive 20-goal campaigns.

Whether it's smart to bring him in or not gets at a larger issue... which is the whole three scoring line thing. Powe doesn't really fit on a scoring line... neither does Carcillo. That's kind of the reality. I would much prefer having Guerin and seeing if he works with Richards than another year of having Richards lugging around someone like Carcillo... who just couldn't keep up.

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09-15-2010, 12:41 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Laperriere has played less than 70 games once since 1997. He played in at least 81 games in 3 of the last 5 years. I don't know why you keep saying he's washed up, worn down, and useless, because simple facts say this is not the case. I know you want him to go so that it buys Carcillo another year to prove he's a superstar, but Laperriere isn't going anywhere for the time being, especially when the Flyers are going to tote around the "toughest player in the league" moniker he was given. He's a 4th liner who knows he is a 4th liner, who kills penalties and gives more times to Richards, Giroux, and Carter to not be killing penalties -- that's exactly what you need to win. He actually may be the most important 4th liner we have.

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09-15-2010, 12:42 PM
  #103
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I would much prefer having Guerin and seeing if he works with Richards than another year of having Richards lugging around someone like Carcillo... who just couldn't keep up.
Carcillo had no problem at all keeping up with Richards and Gagne. In fact, his energy revitalized both of their seasons. He's got decent speed, certainly as good or better than Guerin at this point in his career (but not the Guerin of a decade ago).

I don't hate Guerin - he's big and holds his own in the toughness/hitting realm too, but I'm not sure he has enough speed left to keep up with any of our centres. He played like crap in the playoff games I saw last year (not sure if he was injured, etc.).

On the plus side, he'll be motivated to stick it to the Pens.

We'll see how camp goes I guess.

I'm sure there are teams that might be interested in Carcillo or Powe, depending on who Homer decides to move to make room for Guerin, if he makes the team.

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09-15-2010, 01:08 PM
  #104
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What is with all the multiple posts.

multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.

Not just this thread either. Some sort of glitch or just many guys wanting to REALLY drive home their points today?

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09-15-2010, 01:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
What is with all the multiple posts.

multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.multiple posts.

Not just this thread either. Some sort of glitch or just many guys wanting to REALLY drive home their points today?
The boards were shut down earlier for maintenance. Maybe posts made just before or after were caught in the ether?

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09-15-2010, 01:14 PM
  #106
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Carcillo had no problem at all keeping up with Richards and Gagne. In fact, his energy revitalized both of their seasons. He's got decent speed, certainly as good or better than Guerin at this point in his career (but not the Guerin of a decade ago).

I don't hate Guerin - he's big and holds his own in the toughness/hitting realm too, but I'm not sure he has enough speed left to keep up with any of our centres. He played like crap in the playoff games I saw last year (not sure if he was injured, etc.).

On the plus side, he'll be motivated to stick it to the Pens.

We'll see how camp goes I guess.

I'm sure there are teams that might be interested in Carcillo or Powe, depending on who Homer decides to move to make room for Guerin, if he makes the team.
Carcillo absolutely had trouble keeping up with the two of them, and neutered far more good plays than he made happen. He's got some hands, but if you want a line that is one of your premier "scoring" lines, he's a problem on it. Gagne's season was revitalized when he got healthy and got a break from the Olympics... Gagne starting to finish, helped out Richards (who was forcing passes to him all year).

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09-15-2010, 01:45 PM
  #107
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I think it's quite likely Guerin will get to 20 playing with one of Richards, Carter, or Briere. Could he be below that... sure. However, that's certainly not a huge reach. In fact, he's riding 4 consecutive 20-goal campaigns.

Whether it's smart to bring him in or not gets at a larger issue... which is the whole three scoring line thing. Powe doesn't really fit on a scoring line... neither does Carcillo. That's kind of the reality. I would much prefer having Guerin and seeing if he works with Richards than another year of having Richards lugging around someone like Carcillo... who just couldn't keep up.
Check Guerin's PP TOI last year. He was glued to Crosby's hip yet he got out-scored by Carcillo in ES goals and half of Guerin's goals came on the PP because, for whatever reason, the Pens refused to take him off their PP (and if you look at how bad their PP percentage was, it's obviously not because Guerin is good enough to keep on the PP).

So, unless you expect him to receive top PP time like he did last year in Pittsburgh, I think he has a snowball's chance in hell of reaching what he did last year.

He was given every opportunity to succeed last year. It's not uncommon for players in those positions to have good years.

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Carcillo absolutely had trouble keeping up with the two of them, and neutered far more good plays than he made happen. He's got some hands, but if you want a line that is one of your premier "scoring" lines, he's a problem on it. Gagne's season was revitalized when he got healthy and got a break from the Olympics... Gagne starting to finish, helped out Richards (who was forcing passes to him all year).
People keep saying how all this is a sleight against Carcillo. It isn't. It's a sleight against our GM for forcing a bottom six agitator into a scoring role because of this ****ing retarded three scoring line system.

If Homer were truly committed to three scoring lines, then he would have kept Gagne.

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09-15-2010, 01:47 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
People keep saying how all this is a sleight against Carcillo. It isn't. It's a sleight against our GM for forcing a bottom six agitator into a scoring role because of this ****ing retarded three scoring line system.

If Homer were truly committed to three scoring lines, then he would have kept Gagne.
A-freakin'-men.

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09-15-2010, 01:47 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Fixed that bit for you there.

And Carcillo was benched for whole periods because of his play/stupid penalties in some games.
His "diving" earned us PPs. You know, those things that help you win games.

He was one of the best players in the league last year in producing penalties on the other team and he ended up with far more PPs gained for the team then penalties taken.

Carcillo doesn't even take many minor penalties anymore. At least not under Laviolette so I'm not sure what you're trying to say when saying "he takes penalties".

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09-15-2010, 01:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
His "diving" earned us PPs. You know, those things that help you win games.

He was one of the best players in the league last year in producing penalties on the other team and he ended up with far more PPs gained for the team then penalties taken.


Carcillo doesn't even take many minor penalties anymore. At least not under Laviolette so I'm not sure what you're trying to say when saying "he takes penalties".
Even so, if he does it by agitation I'm fine. Feigning a high stick that was far away enough that even I could see he was never hit while I was sitting up in the crowd from 300 feet away is unforgivable, especially from a fan base that stresses that Crosby, captain of our biggest rival team, is the "Holy Diver." He was fine during the regular season, but started doing it big time in the playoffs. Everyone will have a different opinion on the matter, but for me, I don't care who he is or who he plays for, diving and feigning is never acceptable sportsmanship in my eyes.

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09-15-2010, 01:55 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Even so, if he does it by agitation I'm fine. Feigning a high stick that was far away enough that even I could see he was never hit while I was sitting up in the crowd from 300 feet away is unforgivable, especially from a fan base that stresses that Crosby, captain of our biggest rival team, is the "Holy Diver." He was fine during the regular season, but started doing it big time in the playoffs. Everyone will have a different opinion on the matter, but for me, I don't care who he is or who he plays for, diving and feigning is never acceptable sportsmanship in my eyes.
I hate diving, but I'm fine with it so long as the league continues to accept it.

Either way though, it's ridiculous to hold it against him as if it makes him a worse player. In fact, he's a better player because of the diving in terms of winning. So any issue you have with the diving is more personal then anything.

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09-15-2010, 02:01 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Check Guerin's PP TOI last year. He was glued to Crosby's hip yet he got out-scored by Carcillo in ES goals and half of Guerin's goals came on the PP because, for whatever reason, the Pens refused to take him off their PP (and if you look at how bad their PP percentage was, it's obviously not because Guerin is good enough to keep on the PP).

So, unless you expect him to receive top PP time like he did last year in Pittsburgh, I think he has a snowball's chance in hell of reaching what he did last year.

He was given every opportunity to succeed last year. It's not uncommon for players in those positions to have good years.
Even Strength
Guerin 0.6 goals, 0.6 assist 1, 0.42 assist 2, 1.61 pts/60 min
Carcillo 0.79 goals, 0.36 assist 1, 0.29 assist 2, 1.44 pts/60 min

Crosby also made a commitment to scoring goals himself last year, registering 1.68 goals/60 as opposed to 1.16 goals/60 the year before. They actually specifically discussed how he worked on his shot to score more goals heading into last year.

I think rumors of Guerin's demise are much exaggerated. He's certainly not the player he was in previous years, but he's a veteran player who can help this team and keep up with the skill level of one of our scoring lines better than a Carcillo or Powe. In addition, we're talking about what will be a very cheap contract. There is very little downside here... not sure what the alarm is.

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People keep saying how all this is a sleight against Carcillo. It isn't. It's a sleight against our GM for forcing a bottom six agitator into a scoring role because of this ****ing retarded three scoring line system.

If Homer were truly committed to three scoring lines, then he would have kept Gagne.
Homer isn't exactly good at making tough decisions. He wants both a stacked D, and a stacked set of forwards... tough to have both. That's before getting into spending money on goal.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
His "diving" earned us PPs. You know, those things that help you win games.

He was one of the best players in the league last year in producing penalties on the other team and he ended up with far more PPs gained for the team then penalties taken.

Carcillo doesn't even take many minor penalties anymore. At least not under Laviolette so I'm not sure what you're trying to say when saying "he takes penalties".
Carcillo had some pretty high profile antics in the playoffs that are going to stay with him for some time. That absolutely absurd head snap against the Devs is going to hang over his head, I think.

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09-15-2010, 02:05 PM
  #113
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I hate diving, but I'm fine with it so long as the league continues to accept it.

Either way though, it's ridiculous to hold it against him as if it makes him a worse player. In fact, he's a better player because of the diving in terms of winning. So any issue you have with the diving is more personal then anything.
Billy Barber dove and drew many penalties. Stanley Cup = pass

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09-15-2010, 02:18 PM
  #114
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I hate diving, but I'm fine with it so long as the league continues to accept it.

Either way though, it's ridiculous to hold it against him as if it makes him a worse player. In fact, he's a better player because of the diving in terms of winning. So any issue you have with the diving is more personal then anything.
I don't think diving to draw penalties makes him a better player, although I don't agree with a lot of the opinion where people say he's replaceable. And your first statement, the refs are atrocious a lot of times, I'll agree. I just think that Carcillo is a good enough agitator and player to where he can force a penalty by pissing someone off or by beating them through skating and forcing to commit a penalty. Like I said before, I just find it hypocritical if people call Crosby a diver and than have no problem with Carcillo doing it. When he starts getting diving calls against him (honestly can't remember off hand, but I think he might have had one already), it's going to come and bite the team in the ass. It's paid off, I just don't think it's the honorable thing to do, so yes, I guess it is personal.

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Old
09-15-2010, 02:20 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carcillo absolutely had trouble keeping up with the two of them, and neutered far more good plays than he made happen. He's got some hands, but if you want a line that is one of your premier "scoring" lines, he's a problem on it. Gagne's season was revitalized when he got healthy and got a break from the Olympics... Gagne starting to finish, helped out Richards (who was forcing passes to him all year).
Does anyone have that video where Carcillo falls face first after Giroux hands him one amazing pass, which should have been a goal?

Was it against Chicago?

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09-15-2010, 02:21 PM
  #116
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Billy Barber dove and drew many penalties. Stanley Cup = pass
And following your point, we didn't win the Cup. If you win the Cup, the glory overshadows the "antics," as Jester put it. No Cup = No Pass.

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09-15-2010, 02:50 PM
  #117
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And following your point, we didn't win the Cup. If you win the Cup, the glory overshadows the "antics," as Jester put it. No Cup = No Pass.
Well, yeah. Thought that was a given.

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09-15-2010, 02:54 PM
  #118
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Well, yeah. Thought that was a given.
Brain not fully functioning. Long day at work.

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09-15-2010, 03:14 PM
  #119
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So what we find is that people just hate carcillo for who he is, instead of actually looking at his plays on the ice. Right

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09-15-2010, 03:16 PM
  #120
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So what we find is that people just hate carcillo for who he is, instead of actually looking at his plays on the ice. Right
Thats cause we are told he is hard to replace by some people. And some are even saying Carcillo is more important then Lappy. Yea OK

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09-15-2010, 03:17 PM
  #121
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So what we find is that people just hate carcillo for who he is, instead of actually looking at his plays on the ice. Right
What we find, is that people do not believe he's a scoring line player. Which he is not.

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09-15-2010, 03:23 PM
  #122
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So what we find is that people just hate carcillo for who he is, instead of actually looking at his plays on the ice. Right
I actually really like DC. I despise unsportsmanlike play (e.g., diving, faking getting a high-stick to the face, punching someone in the butt while they're tied up with someone else, punching Adam Burt).

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09-15-2010, 03:32 PM
  #123
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Thats cause we are told he is hard to replace by some people. And some are even saying Carcillo is more important then Lappy. Yea OK
I saw like one person say that. I'd say that they're equally important personally. Lappy is more responsible defensively, PKs, and excels at shot-blocking. Carcillo can agitate, draw penalties, is younger, and has more offensive talent. Two different players.

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What we find, is that people do not believe he's a scoring line player. Which he is not.
Which is something that shouldn't be held against him. Not his fault he plays for the only team in the league that thinks it's a bright idea to try and get three scoring lines going.

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I actually really like DC. I despise unsportsmanlike play (e.g., diving, faking getting a high-stick to the face, punching someone in the butt while they're tied up with someone else, punching Adam Burt).
Whether you want to admit it or not, diving is part of the game and a lot of the players in the NHL do it. Some of Carcillo's dives in the playoffs were bad, but I've seen far worse from far more reputable players and more skilled players.

As long as the league pretty much continues to encourage diving I don't have a problem with Carcillo doing it. My problem is with diving itself and the league's stance on it, not with the players that do it.

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09-15-2010, 03:38 PM
  #124
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I'm just gonna post a quote from the trade forums to reflect my sentiment on Guerin.

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Yea, I understand the sentiment, I just don't agree with it. Doesn't make me right, I just think that goal scoring is the least of our worries (except for the gaping hole in net).

We aren't going to lose all that many goals (if any) going from Gagne to Zherdev, but we sure as hell downgraded in two-way play in that swap. Why downgrade any further defensively for a guy who scored 10 even strength goals last year playing alongside Crosby? Hell, regardless of whether or not he replaces Carcillo or Powe, it's still a reach to say it's much of an upgrade. Powe scored 9 even strength goals last year without Crosby's help, only 1 less than Guerin.

In the end, the Flyers are likely going to sign him. It's a typical Homer move and one that I'm sure is going to come to pass. And in the end, I'm not sure it makes one bit of real difference either way. Hence why I asked "what's the point"? It's the same question I asked when Shooter decided to sign Shelley and let Asham walk. "What's the point?" That question should just be the Flyers' slogan for this offseason.

I just don't see the need or upside of adding Guerin. If we lacked leadership and had a glaring need on the PP, then I'd be all for it, because Billy can be effective in those two areas. But yea, we don't lack in those areas, and this reeks of signing a player based on past accomplishments and the name he carries.

I like Guerin. He seems like a nice guy, and by all accounts, he is great in the locker room and teammates love him. That's all great and stuff, but the bottomline is whether or not he makes this team better, and I just don't see it. Others disagree, and we'll likely get to see it all play out very soon.
I just don't see the point in signing him. Powe, the Darroll Powe with hands of stone who received no real PP time last year and played on our lower lines, only managed one less ES goal then Guerin last year, who played with Crosby all year long and had ample PP time. I have no clue how that alone doesn't tell people something about Guerin. Carcillo score one more ES goal then Guerin while also not being in as an advantageous position as Guerin.

Signing Guerin would just seem like a marginal upgrade at it's best and a pain in our neck both cap-wise and in terms of play on the ice at the worst.

I just don't see the point in it at all. I also don't see any legitimate reasons that point to Guerin being an upgrade over Carcillo.

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09-15-2010, 03:42 PM
  #125
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(snip) Whether you want to admit it or not, diving is part of the game and a lot of the players in the NHL do it. Some of Carcillo's dives in the playoffs were bad, but I've seen far worse from far more reputable players and more skilled players.

As long as the league pretty much continues to encourage diving I don't have a problem with Carcillo doing it. My problem is with diving itself and the league's stance on it, not with the players that do it.
Not disagreeing with the fact that it exists and some of the league's darlings do it most, but I hated Barber doing it and I still hate it today. Win fair, I say. Else I'd have somebody pop the faker for sure on their way to the box. Earn the 2 minutes.

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