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David Fischer released...again

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Old
09-17-2010, 03:05 PM
  #76
zurg999
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Only one top flight prospect in the entire system. PK. We have some decent prospects, but no elite level talent. I disagree on Tinordi. He will at best be a 4th or 5th dman imo.
'elite' would be Tavares, etc.

Top flight?
Outside of projected 'role players' (i.e White, Maxwell, Tinordi etc.) PK, Eller, Avstin Pacioretty (maybe) could be considered prospects any organization would be glad to have in the system.

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Originally Posted by Lucky Luke View Post
I'm a lifetime HABS & OLYMPIQUES hockey fan who had the privilege to see Giroux first-hand throughout his amazing junior career.
Timmins saw the same thing as I and was still stubborn enough to pick Fischer.
Thank you Mr. Timmins.
And I watched Corey Locke smash a much stronger league's (OHL) scoring records. So what?

sigh.

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Old
09-17-2010, 03:07 PM
  #77
montreal
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Kostitsyn: Worst player in our top-6, horrible playoffs last year. Many stars drafted after him in the first round.
Chipchura: Traded. Horrible year with the Habs, upside of a below-average 4th liner.
Price: 5th choice overall, horrible year last season, rode the pine in the playoffs.
McDonagh: Traded. Hasn't played an NHL game yet.
Pacioretty: Could not stick with the Habs yet. Pedestrian stats in AHL and NHL.
You consider a .912 save % horrible for a 22 year old? That's ****ing insane.

Also I think chipchura has a higher upside then that of a below average 4th liner, Ducks seem happy with him.

I admit that Timmins 1st round picks don't give me that warm fuzzy feeling but this is over doing it imo.

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09-17-2010, 03:19 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by zurg999 View Post
And I watched Corey Locke smash a much stronger league's (OHL) scoring records. So what?

sigh.
Have you seen Locke skate compared to Giroux? It doesn't take a professional scout to see the difference.

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Old
09-17-2010, 03:39 PM
  #79
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I keep thinking about Giroux, Berglund and Lucic!!!

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09-17-2010, 04:17 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Kostitsyn: Worst player in our top-6, horrible playoffs last year. Many stars drafted after him in the first round.
Chipchura: Traded. Horrible year with the Habs, upside of a below-average 4th liner.
Price: 5th choice overall, horrible year last season, rode the pine in the playoffs.
McDonagh: Traded. Hasn't played an NHL game yet.
Pacioretty: Could not stick with the Habs yet. Pedestrian stats in AHL and NHL.

If that spells success for you, we don't have the same standards. Now about those steals...

Halak: Traded
Grabovski: Traded
Streit: Not resigned.
Kostitsyn: Traded
Subban: The exception.

Only one of those players has any chance of making an impact with the team this year. All the others were deemed expendable. That is a pretty dismal record if you ask me.
Is it Timmins' fault if the players get traded away? No, thus your last point is moot.

I think you expect Trevor to draft an Yzerman or a Sakic in every draft year or something. About 75% of first rounders have any impact in the NHL. We're over 83%, that's much better than average.

AK is a top-6 forward on any team in the league, that's excellent for a first rounder.

Chippy is an NHL player, not that great, but then again, 2004 was a crappy draft year.

Price has already played in the All-Star game and 134 total games, before turning 23. You show me the other goalies who have achieved this.

As for McDonagh & Pacioretty, give them a break, they're barely 21.


Even if you disregard my arguments, just compare our results to the other teams in the NHL before blaming Trevor. Bad? But compared to what?

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09-17-2010, 04:22 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
The guys saying they don't understand why we drafted him are ludicrous.

6'4 Dman who skates like the wind and just won the Mr. Hockey award.

Why wouldn't we pick him? And as others said, we had jack in our dman prospect cupboard.

This is the only first rounder Timmins has picked who isn't playing or hasn't played in the NHL: Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Price, McDonagh, Pacioretty. That's a 5/6=83.3% success rate. I dare you to find better with the positions he's had. And let's not forget the absolute STEALS he got us in the other rounds: Halak (9th), Grabovski (5th), Streit (9th), Kostitsyn (7th), Subban (2nd). That's one steal PER YEAR!!

Move on people, the future is bright and the draft position only matters on paper. It's completely meaningless on the ice.

We've made the post-season 5 times in the last 6 years (and the only miss by 1 point in the final game), been past the 1st round 3 times, past the 2nd round once. Compare this with the previous 10 years before Timmins and Gainey got here. Yeah.
I hope we stop with this great Mr.Hockey award. Look at the list and aside from Paul Martin, everyboyd either never played a game or were borderline fillers. We'll see about how the players picked from 2005 to this day will handle themselves .

Yeah, we had jack. So I guess you don't believe in the ones who say to never draft for needs. Yet, as true as your statement is, Fischer was so raw that it didn't necessarily mean that he would fill that void. Surely you'll say, most prospects will never be a sure bet, but you take the last draft for example and you have so much a better idea of where you end up picking guys as raw as he is. You watch guys like Mark Alt, Justin Holl, Julian Melchiori or even Patrick McNally and we're talking about at best a 53rd pick or at worst a 115th pick.

Nobody had him that soon.

As far as using the guys who played in the NHL to rate a scout's success, I just can't use solely that number to address it. Yes, it has to be part of it. But again, even in a cap world, in an era when you can have guys at 500k to 1M to fill your lineup, picking those types of guys solely for the sake of saying that they end up playing NHL games, will not cut it.

As far as steals, again, nobody is denying it. Nobody places him at the rank of worst head scout of the universe. Let's not get carried away here to call Kosty as a steal....at least not yet.

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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Fischer admitted he didn't work hard enough when he was at college, so I blame him moreso then the scouts. With the change to drafting kids out of the USHS in '05 your going to see more hits and misses since it used to be you couldn't draft a kid until after his freshman year (ala Higgins/Komisarek/Hainsey etc) so now your forced to pick them sooner while they are playing against much weaker competition so it's much bigger gamble now.
Totally. Mixed of bad luck and working not hard enough isn't a good mix. Which makes me think.....should we go back again and remember why he was known as the "idiot" by some of the scouting groups? While Columbus shouldn't give any lessons to anybody as far as scouting is concerned....why even those guys considered him a ND at the time? One of the most obvious time that one prospect wasn't liked at all because of his attitude....and history prooves that his attitude wasn't the greatest by far....So when a poor scouting group like Columbus' saw something, you wonder why we didn't.....

Also, I keep saying 1000 times that we are missing a guy like Claude Ruel. He would have been on Fischer's tail and would not have permitted it something like that to happen.

That's something I would like a rich team to do compared to others. You can't spend money on players compared to other teams, well make sure you spend it so that the draft and the development becomes your most important trait and that everything is covered. From the draft to the development of players. Where you'd have some guys who would come and visit you to see your progression. I know that our amateur scouts and that Timmins also do it. But they can't be everywhere.

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Old
09-17-2010, 05:45 PM
  #82
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LOL what a bust that guy turned out to be !!

I knew it all along since day one. My pick was Claude Giroux and it turned out to be the right one once again.

How Timmins and his team is still in place is beyond me. He should have been fired a few years ago.

Jared Tinordi is also another prospect that I'm not sold on...

Guess we'll see...

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Old
09-17-2010, 07:04 PM
  #83
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Fischer is a bust... Sucks, but live with it. Scouting is not a science, it's a gamble. A good example is going apple picking. You can look at the apple to see if it looks good and promising, but you never really know what is inside it until you take a bite. same with drafting. sure, Giroux would have been awesome to draft, but we didn't. We never know though, what happens if Fischer gets drafted by Philly instead and we get Giroux, then Giroux turns into a bust and Philly now have a very solid d-man... I bet everyone here 10 bucks that all the Giroux fans would say that Fischer would have been the better choice. As for Fischer being an honorable mention by McKenzie in his mock draft, dosen't really matter. Look at this year's draft: Colorado got Joey Hishon and Phoenix got Mark Visentin. Both were slated to go 2nd/3rd round and got drafted before guys like Kabanov, Pickard, McFarland, Etem, etc. Does this mean those picks are bad??? No! Maybe some Phoenix scout or some Colorado scout saw something special in the player that they drafted that made them think of their pick becoming a star. I'm sure Timmins & Co. had a good reason to pick Fischer. They didn't pick him because he was American or they hated Giroux because of his french heritage, etc. As for Pacioretty and McDounagh being bad picks, McDounagh is slated to become a top 4 defenceman for New York and Pacioretty is at worst a solid 3rd liner. Also, give them time to develop completely. And for people who complain that we don't draft CHL players, it might not necessarily be a bad thing. Look at Leblanc, he was too weak to play pro and after ONE year with Harvard (not a hockey mecca), he beat out everyone in the Canadian U-20 fitness testing. Now, he's gonna play a lot with the Juniors. Honestly, drafting College players shows that we try to draft intelligent players and not wind up with Enver "Einstein" Lisin.

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Old
09-17-2010, 08:03 PM
  #84
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Fischer was a bad pick - the only bad first round pick Timmins has made - yet "Montreal" proclaims that our first round drafting under Timmins has been brutal.

that is particularly presumptuous considering that four of Timmins' picks aren't even ready for the NHL yet as it's only been four years since they were drafted.

Perhaps we should wait a little while before making such bold proclamations. Frankly I'm surprised Dan that you would be so quick to judge when the jury is still very much out on more than half the picks he has made.

Kosty hasn't lived up to his high expectations, but he was still a first round pick if you did the first 30 picks again, so it was far from brutal.

Chipchura being drafted 18th overall in 2004 was actually a half decent pick if you go back and look at the first round - nothing brutal about that pick at all if you are actually objective.

Price is looking like a solid first round pick - may turn out to be one of the top five first round picks from that draft - still too early to judge as goalies take a little longer to develop....yet his resume so far if you look at what most goalies achieve by the age of 23 is pretty impressive, and there's still room to grow.

Fischer was a bad pick - no question. shouldn't have been made. Pat Westrum really liked him and pushed for him, and Trevor, even though he liked Giroux a lot, went with Westrum's advice. Westrum had even coached Fischer at one point, and thought he was a diamond in the rough. To Trevor's credit he wasn't entirely sold on the pick or he'd have never traded down and gotten a second-round pick, which he used on Carle. The 2006 draft was far from fabulous...Carle still has a chance to be better than some of the other first round picks from that draft. Brutal first pick yes - but at least there is still some hope with Carle.

It's too early to pass any sort of judgement on the last four first round picks, but none of them are looking like they were bad picks, just the opposite. To classify Timmin's first round picks as brutal to me is way off base.

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Old
09-17-2010, 08:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ground And Pound View Post
At the time i remember wanting either Sanguinetti , Berglund or Stewart and was shocked when we traded down to pick Fischer. As i said before if we wanted him i'm pretty sure that he would still have been available in the 2nd or 3rd so i didn't understand what was the rush to pick him so early and still don't to this day. Suffice to say that aside from Sanguinetti and even then (who is still much closer to the NHL than Fischer will possibly ever be) , the other 2 guys would have been much better picks,

The Fischer pick was possibly the worst move Timmins made since he's head scout. All i can say is thank god for the 2nd round pick.
I remember lots of people wanting us to pick Sanguinetti. I think Fisher has turned out to be a better pick than Sanguinetti since I would rather have the 2nd round compensation pick.

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Old
09-17-2010, 08:24 PM
  #86
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Strange. I thought David Fischer was still a Hab. I must have missed them releasing him at some point. I thought he was still in their plans. David Fischer should always be in their plan!

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Old
09-17-2010, 08:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Erika EllerWick View Post
LOL what a bust that guy turned out to be !!

I knew it all along since day one. My pick was Claude Giroux and it turned out to be the right one once again.

How Timmins and his team is still in place is beyond me. He should have been fired a few years ago.

Jared Tinordi is also another prospect that I'm not sold on...

Guess we'll see...
I don't understand the hate for Timmins, everyone is gushing at the stable of prospects we have, but yet we hate the man responsible for getting us those prospects.

Either you hate Timmins and our prospects, or you like Timmins and our prospects.

I like our prospects, so I think Timmins is doing a good job. Drafting players is not an exact science, everyone will make errors.

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Old
09-17-2010, 08:51 PM
  #88
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I love this thread.

I wish we could have pick Giroux bla bla bla.
I wish we could have pick Lucic bla bla bla.
I wish we could have pick Parise bla bla bla.

Go cheers for another team, if you're not happy with the management.

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Old
09-18-2010, 10:51 AM
  #89
montreal
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Originally Posted by Haberdashery View Post
Fischer was a bad pick - the only bad first round pick Timmins has made - yet "Montreal" proclaims that our first round drafting under Timmins has been brutal.

that is particularly presumptuous considering that four of Timmins' picks aren't even ready for the NHL yet as it's only been four years since they were drafted.

Perhaps we should wait a little while before making such bold proclamations. Frankly I'm surprised Dan that you would be so quick to judge when the jury is still very much out on more than half the picks he has made.

Kosty hasn't lived up to his high expectations, but he was still a first round pick if you did the first 30 picks again, so it was far from brutal.

Chipchura being drafted 18th overall in 2004 was actually a half decent pick if you go back and look at the first round - nothing brutal about that pick at all if you are actually objective.

Price is looking like a solid first round pick - may turn out to be one of the top five first round picks from that draft - still too early to judge as goalies take a little longer to develop....yet his resume so far if you look at what most goalies achieve by the age of 23 is pretty impressive, and there's still room to grow.

Fischer was a bad pick - no question. shouldn't have been made. Pat Westrum really liked him and pushed for him, and Trevor, even though he liked Giroux a lot, went with Westrum's advice. Westrum had even coached Fischer at one point, and thought he was a diamond in the rough. To Trevor's credit he wasn't entirely sold on the pick or he'd have never traded down and gotten a second-round pick, which he used on Carle. The 2006 draft was far from fabulous...Carle still has a chance to be better than some of the other first round picks from that draft. Brutal first pick yes - but at least there is still some hope with Carle.

It's too early to pass any sort of judgement on the last four first round picks, but none of them are looking like they were bad picks, just the opposite. To classify Timmin's first round picks as brutal to me is way off base.
I think most won't feel too warm and fuzzy about our 1st round picks outside of Leblanc and Tinordi. Kostitsyn is hated around here and has been for a while. I doubt there's much he will be able to do to ever shake that as people will always bring up all the other picks that we passed. How much better would this team be with a Getzlaf, Parise, Richards or Perry? It sucks to see so many guys picked after Kostitsyn do so well, while he at times looks like a slug on skates. I just don't like the way he plays and unless he starts playing with more intensity and starts producing more, I will continue to think it was a bad pick. Granted I have the advantage of hindsight, where it's much easier not to be wrong and at the draft I had no problem with the Habs drafting Kostitsyn, in fact I loved the pick at the time but then again I'm just a guy that watches hockey games and my opinions don't mean a thing.

As for Chipchura, as just about anyone on this board can tell you, I have been one of Chipchura's biggest suppporters, despite not liking the pick at the time. (I wanted Korpikoski so what do I know) That said the only thing that matters is results and getting a 4th round for him is brutal, to me, so the fact that we have nothing to show for another 1st round pick sucks. I happen to think Chipchura is going to be a solid bottom line player, he's smart, hard working and solid in his own end while being great at protecting the puck. He is also hated around here, but I still don't agree with the trade, I would have rather kept him around personally. I know it's out of Timmins hands that he was traded, but in the end it's results that matter and when you have nothing to show for your 1st round pick, fans will be upset and they are right to be (unless we bring home a cup of course)

Price is the one that could really swing things for him as he has the abilities to be very good but you got to admit, things have not been so rosey with him over the last two seasons and while you would expect such a young goalie to have his ups and downs, it becomes compounded when the rest of our 1st round picks also struggle a good bit or are traded.

I was a big fan of the McDonagh pick, Pacioretty not as much. I still think McDonagh is going to be a solid NHLer, it's too bad he was traded and again not Timmins falt as I know he was high on him but you know how it is around here with the whole not drafting players from Quebec (I could care less where a player is drafted from) just read this thread, some seem actually giddy that Fischer is a bust so they can tell us that they knew the future, that Fischer would be a bust and that Giroux was going to be a good one. Same with Perron of course. Frankly I hate the whole language thing, but when all your 1st round picks struggle it's hard to continually defend.

I think the bottom line is that Hab fans want to win, and until last season, we hadn't been past the 2nd round in what feels like forever. Everything is riding on Price this year, so we are going to see what happens, if he doesn't step up there's going to be a lot of hate around here cause we will likely be in big trouble since there's nothing to replace Price should he struggle (unless Auld turns out to be very good, I love Sanford as an AHL goalie and I don't have a clue what to make about Mayer). I also expect Kostitsyn to get back on track, 25+ goals and showing more aggressiveness on the ice (hopefully)

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Old
09-18-2010, 11:44 AM
  #90
bipolarhabfan
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Originally Posted by Sandvich View Post
I love this thread.

I wish we could have pick Giroux bla bla bla.
I wish we could have pick Lucic bla bla bla.
I wish we could have pick Parise bla bla bla.

Go cheers for another team, if you're not happy with the management.
So will have to be blind followers of a team? We cannot question the team's drafting? Would you apply this same philosophy to our government?

I believe our drafting has been horrendous, hence the need for a rebuild via the UFA route last season. Practically every team has gotten a great player in the first round in the last 10-20 years. We have not. All we have to show for it is a couple of borderline players and question marks. When was the last time the Habs drafted someone that was capable of scoring 80 to 90 points a season, what I would call an elite level talent? The only players that come to mind are Stephane Richer, drafted 29th overall in 84 and John LeClair, drafted 33rd overall in 87. We are literally talking about a quarter century here.

Does anyone remember the last time we drafted a player that scored 100 points in the NHL? We have to go back to the Iranian Hostage crisis and before the Canadian Charter of Rights. The year was 1979, the player Mats Naslund. He scored his 110 points in 1986, a year where Bon Jovi was Givin' Love a Bad Name and Brian Mulroney was making a bad name for himself.

I laid on the hyperbole a bit thick but it was necessary.

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Old
09-18-2010, 11:52 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sandvich View Post
I love this thread.

I wish we could have pick Giroux bla bla bla.
I wish we could have pick Lucic bla bla bla.
I wish we could have pick Parise bla bla bla.

Go cheers for another team, if you're not happy with the management.
Remember we are at Montreal, where any GM decision is criticized, always haters for everything...

It is like that for decades... if you do not like I am sorry but you will never be able to change it.

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Old
09-18-2010, 11:56 AM
  #92
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So will have to be blind followers of a team? We cannot question the team's drafting? Would you apply this same philosophy to our government?

I believe our drafting has been horrendous, hence the need for a rebuild via the UFA route last season. Practically every team has gotten a great player in the first round in the last 10-20 years. We have not. All we have to show for it is a couple of borderline players and question marks. When was the last time the Habs drafted someone that was capable of scoring 80 to 90 points a season, what I would call an elite level talent? The only players that come to mind are Stephane Richer, drafted 29th overall in 84 and John LeClair, drafted 33rd overall in 87. We are literally talking about a quarter century here.

Does anyone remember the last time we drafted a player that scored 100 points in the NHL? We have to go back to the Iranian Hostage crisis and before the Canadian Charter of Rights. The year was 1979, the player Mats Naslund. He scored his 110 points in 1986, a year where Bon Jovi was Givin' Love a Bad Name and Brian Mulroney was making a bad name for himself.

I laid on the hyperbole a bit thick but it was necessary.
We won in 86 lost in finals in 89, won in 93, and just missed finals last year. Look at a team like Boston who have had premier guys in those years and they still have a big goose egg. I am less worried about a premier guy as long as the team is solid from 1st line to fourth. Jersey won with a team first attitude. If Price starts to shine and Subban can come close to Markov's talent we have a contender.

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Old
09-18-2010, 12:10 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
So will have to be blind followers of a team? We cannot question the team's drafting? Would you apply this same philosophy to our government?

I believe our drafting has been horrendous, hence the need for a rebuild via the UFA route last season. Practically every team has gotten a great player in the first round in the last 10-20 years. We have not. All we have to show for it is a couple of borderline players and question marks. When was the last time the Habs drafted someone that was capable of scoring 80 to 90 points a season, what I would call an elite level talent? The only players that come to mind are Stephane Richer, drafted 29th overall in 84 and John LeClair, drafted 33rd overall in 87. We are literally talking about a quarter century here.

Does anyone remember the last time we drafted a player that scored 100 points in the NHL? We have to go back to the Iranian Hostage crisis and before the Canadian Charter of Rights. The year was 1979, the player Mats Naslund. He scored his 110 points in 1986, a year where Bon Jovi was Givin' Love a Bad Name and Brian Mulroney was making a bad name for himself.

I laid on the hyperbole a bit thick but it was necessary.
It's hard to draft players that score 100 points without having the benefit of a top 3 pick, unfortunately Montreal has not had any top 3 picks in the last 10 years.

Please list 100 point players Montreal actually passed over in a draft while Timmins was head scout, I am willing to bet there are not that many.

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Old
09-18-2010, 02:06 PM
  #94
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I remember exactly the words of the TSN analyst when we picked Fisher. Just before us, the Rangers had picked another american defenseman with poor stats (Mark Mitera), so they were already skeptikal on TSN. So when the Habs decided to pick Fisher, they said something like :

"The Habs management sees a lot of potential in that guy... But again : Where are the numbers???"

I think many scouts were overestimating a lot of american prospects at that time, and this trend is still going on...

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Old
09-18-2010, 05:05 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by googlymoogly View Post
We won in 86 lost in finals in 89, won in 93, and just missed finals last year. Look at a team like Boston who have had premier guys in those years and they still have a big goose egg. I am less worried about a premier guy as long as the team is solid from 1st line to fourth. Jersey won with a team first attitude. If Price starts to shine and Subban can come close to Markov's talent we have a contender.
I have been dissapointed a few too many times with this team. As a result, I think last season may have been a chimera. Think of the Oilers of a few season ago.

This season hinges on the play of Pouliot and Kostitsyn and more goal scoring outside of the big four.

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Old
09-18-2010, 05:29 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by ruski17 View Post
Fischer is a bust... Sucks, but live with it. Scouting is not a science, it's a gamble. A good example is going apple picking. You can look at the apple to see if it looks good and promising, but you never really know what is inside it until you take a bite. same with drafting. sure, Giroux would have been awesome to draft, but we didn't. We never know though, what happens if Fischer gets drafted by Philly instead and we get Giroux, then Giroux turns into a bust and Philly now have a very solid d-man... I bet everyone here 10 bucks that all the Giroux fans would say that Fischer would have been the better choice. As for Fischer being an honorable mention by McKenzie in his mock draft, dosen't really matter. Look at this year's draft: Colorado got Joey Hishon and Phoenix got Mark Visentin. Both were slated to go 2nd/3rd round and got drafted before guys like Kabanov, Pickard, McFarland, Etem, etc. Does this mean those picks are bad??? No! Maybe some Phoenix scout or some Colorado scout saw something special in the player that they drafted that made them think of their pick becoming a star. I'm sure Timmins & Co. had a good reason to pick Fischer. They didn't pick him because he was American or they hated Giroux because of his french heritage, etc. As for Pacioretty and McDounagh being bad picks, McDounagh is slated to become a top 4 defenceman for New York and Pacioretty is at worst a solid 3rd liner. Also, give them time to develop completely. And for people who complain that we don't draft CHL players, it might not necessarily be a bad thing. Look at Leblanc, he was too weak to play pro and after ONE year with Harvard (not a hockey mecca), he beat out everyone in the Canadian U-20 fitness testing. Now, he's gonna play a lot with the Juniors. Honestly, drafting College players shows that we try to draft intelligent players and not wind up with Enver "Einstein" Lisin.
Nice post! If NFL teams can draft 22 year olds who don't pan out, is it any surprise that it happens in the NHL with 18 year olds? I also love the people with 20/20 hindsight, or those who remind people of things only when they turn out to be correct. If Fischer had become the new Bobby Orr, minus the injuries, would anyone post, "Good thing the Canadiens didn't listen to me, or we would have been stuck with Giroux".

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Old
09-18-2010, 06:16 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruski17 View Post
Fischer is a bust... Sucks, but live with it. Scouting is not a science, it's a gamble. A good example is going apple picking. You can look at the apple to see if it looks good and promising, but you never really know what is inside it until you take a bite. same with drafting. sure, Giroux would have been awesome to draft, but we didn't. We never know though, what happens if Fischer gets drafted by Philly instead and we get Giroux, then Giroux turns into a bust and Philly now have a very solid d-man... I bet everyone here 10 bucks that all the Giroux fans would say that Fischer would have been the better choice. As for Fischer being an honorable mention by McKenzie in his mock draft, dosen't really matter. Look at this year's draft: Colorado got Joey Hishon and Phoenix got Mark Visentin. Both were slated to go 2nd/3rd round and got drafted before guys like Kabanov, Pickard, McFarland, Etem, etc. Does this mean those picks are bad??? No! Maybe some Phoenix scout or some Colorado scout saw something special in the player that they drafted that made them think of their pick becoming a star. I'm sure Timmins & Co. had a good reason to pick Fischer. They didn't pick him because he was American or they hated Giroux because of his french heritage, etc. As for Pacioretty and McDounagh being bad picks, McDounagh is slated to become a top 4 defenceman for New York and Pacioretty is at worst a solid 3rd liner. Also, give them time to develop completely. And for people who complain that we don't draft CHL players, it might not necessarily be a bad thing. Look at Leblanc, he was too weak to play pro and after ONE year with Harvard (not a hockey mecca), he beat out everyone in the Canadian U-20 fitness testing. Now, he's gonna play a lot with the Juniors. Honestly, drafting College players shows that we try to draft intelligent players and not wind up with Enver "Einstein" Lisin.
First....yes, of course. Every team draft players for reason. I take decisions based on reasoning. So do you. Yet, at one point, and especially when it comes to work, you have to judge your results. It's been talked a lot that there's no need to call out for a winner as soon as the draft ends 'cause it makes no sense. We need to let them develop. Totally agree. But how incredible is it that when it's finally time to judge, 3, 4 or 5 years later, we are told that.....anyway, it's a gamble not an exact science. That's the only job in the world that you can't be fired 'cause it's never your fault if a pick doesn't pan out. Sorry, will not buy that. Yes, you can't have 7 superstars panning out from the draft.

But I'm sorry, I will not believe it's just a gamble. Not with the numerous combines that are taking places. Not with the interviews that are taking place. Not with the money spent in scouting and all to be as sure as possible that you end up with the right person. If it was just a gamble, they hired Paul the Poulpe and have him pick the player. As a matter of fact, being a GM isn't an exact science either. Same with coaching. Nothing is actually. Still, you need to evaluate your personnel. And a poor 1st round needs to be judged based on the fact that most of your core in your team are coming from the 1st round (yes I know, some 2nd, 3rd and the rest also but it's not the majority.....except for goalies)

As far as going with the intelligent players.....give me a break. You can have the greatest QI on the planet and not position yourself well on the ice. Or don't feel like working hard or taking a hit. Or have the natural abilities you need to play in this league. Seeing that the CHL has provided us with tons of NHL talent, I really don't see the point you're trying to make. If anything, the US is on a roll based on their pure abilities and hockey talent. But mostly the fact that they have the chance to build a team and play against superior talent permitting them a great development, is the reason why you see more players being picked up. The intelligence in the US just hasn't started to be more present. But their hockey program has started to be more and more efficient.

Nobody is saying to fire Timmins. But if the guy can be praise every day of the week for his Subban pick, why the heck would we forget about his bad picks? Praise the great moves, forget about the bad ones.....

The reality is that you have to pick game changing players. Players that you won't acquire in trade 'cause they are too expensive or because nobody wants to send it too you. Yes, most of those players are gone when it's our turn to talk. Still, we have had a chance every years to do so based on who was left. And so far, we didn't. Remains to be seen what Price, Pacioretty, Leblanc and Tinordi will do.

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Old
09-18-2010, 06:23 PM
  #98
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
...
But I'm sorry, I will not believe it's just a gamble. Not with the numerous combines that are taking places. Not with the interviews that are taking place. Not with the money spent in scouting and all to be as sure as possible that you end up with the right person. If it was just a gamble, they hired Paul the Poulpe and have him pick the player. As a matter of fact, being a GM isn't an exact science either. Same with coaching. Nothing is actually. Still, you need to evaluate your personnel. And a poor 1st round needs to be judged based on the fact that most of your core in your team are coming from the 1st round (yes I know, some 2nd, 3rd and the rest also but it's not the majority.....except for goalies)
I think the point is that you have relatively narrow odds no matter what you do, so yes, it IS a gamble. If it wasn't you wouldn't pick Fischer and end up being wrong. And every team gets their share of Fischers. Maybe you're at 30% in general. Higher in the 1st, higher the further up you go. But it's still odds. And it seems like scouting and camps and training and all the evaluations and interviews only gives you a modest edge. Maybe if you're the best in the business you get a 5% boost in a given tier over your competitors? 35% instead of 30% odds? And if you just pick names at random off the CSB list, you don't do too much worse. So yeah, it's a gamble.

But there are some poker players who do better than others, right? Poker is a gamble too. Knowing the odds helps.

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Old
09-18-2010, 06:42 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Erika EllerWick View Post
LOL what a bust that guy turned out to be !!

I knew it all along since day one. My pick was Claude Giroux and it turned out to be the right one once again.

How Timmins and his team is still in place is beyond me. He should have been fired a few years ago.

Jared Tinordi is also another prospect that I'm not sold on...

Guess we'll see...
It's really hard to project 17-18 year olds. It's like trying to predict how 12 year old students will fair in the future. However, I'm not really impressed by our drafting, I think it's easier to project CHL'ers in the first round since they look a bit more polished and consistent but we keep drafting players outside of the chl in the first round ( which isn't a good idea besides if they are european).

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Old
09-18-2010, 07:22 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Haberdashery View Post
Fischer was a bad pick - the only bad first round pick Timmins has made - yet "Montreal" proclaims that our first round drafting under Timmins has been brutal.

that is particularly presumptuous considering that four of Timmins' picks aren't even ready for the NHL yet as it's only been four years since they were drafted.

Perhaps we should wait a little while before making such bold proclamations. Frankly I'm surprised Dan that you would be so quick to judge when the jury is still very much out on more than half the picks he has made.

Kosty hasn't lived up to his high expectations, but he was still a first round pick if you did the first 30 picks again, so it was far from brutal.

Chipchura being drafted 18th overall in 2004 was actually a half decent pick if you go back and look at the first round - nothing brutal about that pick at all if you are actually objective.

Price is looking like a solid first round pick - may turn out to be one of the top five first round picks from that draft - still too early to judge as goalies take a little longer to develop....yet his resume so far if you look at what most goalies achieve by the age of 23 is pretty impressive, and there's still room to grow.

Fischer was a bad pick - no question. shouldn't have been made. Pat Westrum really liked him and pushed for him, and Trevor, even though he liked Giroux a lot, went with Westrum's advice. Westrum had even coached Fischer at one point, and thought he was a diamond in the rough. To Trevor's credit he wasn't entirely sold on the pick or he'd have never traded down and gotten a second-round pick, which he used on Carle. The 2006 draft was far from fabulous...Carle still has a chance to be better than some of the other first round picks from that draft. Brutal first pick yes - but at least there is still some hope with Carle.

It's too early to pass any sort of judgement on the last four first round picks, but none of them are looking like they were bad picks, just the opposite. To classify Timmin's first round picks as brutal to me is way off base.
When I read your post, I wanted to disagree with you. So I looked at hockeydb. The truth is that the Habs have done okay in the 1st round. Some teams have been mediocre, while others have been awful except for having drafted one or two elite players, usually with a top pick.

The teams that have done well tend to be the ones that have had many picks. LA has done well, but that's with 11 1st round picks since 2003 (not including 2010), three of them in the top 5 and only two of them lower than 13th. Wash has 12 picks, also three in the top 5, but they managed to find 4 roster players (including Green) picking between 18th and 30th.

I think the perception of Habs 1st rounders, as a group, is one of disappointment because there hasn't been a real star (yet). If you have Ryan, Perry and Getzlaf and a bunch of ... others after 9 picks since 2003, you can say, "Well, you win some and you lose some." Getting Myers at 12th lets you content yourself with Stafford at 13th and forget Zagrapan altogether. Even drafting a Parise, if not much else (so far), seems to be a better deal. How many future 1st round picks would you give up for him?

I've always held that it is reasonable to expect a 1st round pick to become a roster player. But now I don't think that's realistic. The only team that comes anywhere close to that standard is Philly, with 6 1st round picks since 2003 -- not one miss, and that's picking everywhere from 2nd overall to 29th.

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