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Old
09-21-2010, 10:53 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
I really like Barts and his play but the sad thing is he's the first on the list to leave.

Sucks? Sure. Does it really hurt? Not really. We have some D-prospects soon to be ready to take his job anyway.
Gustafsson and Bourdon seem like two prospects who could take the next step over the next year of two.

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09-21-2010, 10:54 AM
  #27
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He wouldn't be eligible for rec-entry waivers
Why not?

He is waiver eligible and he earns more than $105K in the AHL.

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09-21-2010, 11:10 AM
  #28
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Why not?

He is waiver eligible and he earns more than $105K in the AHL.
When was this? I missed that. Holmgren shouldn't have had to negotiate a separate AHL salary for someone who is 23-years old and minimal NHL experience.

Oh wait, it's a one-way deal. That's supposed to not matter though. I guess if he wasn't waiver eligible to begin with, that wouldn't have been the issue.


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09-21-2010, 11:19 AM
  #29
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When was this? I missed that. Holmgren shouldn't have had to negotiate a separate AHL salary for someone who is 23-years old and minimal NHL experience.
There are a lot of things that Homer does that he shouldn't.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...7th-D/45/30245

A great article. Bartulis, as confirmed by the team, is NOT waiver exempt and would almost certainly be picked up by another team once the season (and injuries) started.

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09-21-2010, 11:29 AM
  #30
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There are a lot of things that Homer does that he shouldn't.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...7th-D/45/30245

A great article. Bartulis, as confirmed by the team, is NOT waiver exempt and would almost certainly be picked up by another team once the season (and injuries) started.
I can't wait to get pissed off about this.

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09-21-2010, 11:39 AM
  #31
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I can't wait to get pissed off about this.
As Bill mentions in the article, the signing of Guerin (when it happens) may force Homer to actually make the right decision. Which is sad, because all of this cap mess could have easily been avoided.

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09-21-2010, 11:50 AM
  #32
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I know there are people here who dont like Bartulis, but the guy is still young and learning. Our young group of defenseman are not going to learn anything down in the AHL when they have already been down there and shown they can play down there. Holmgren getting Walker is proof that he doesnt like or trust any of our young defenseman.
I would take Bartulis, Marshall or even Bourdon over Walker especially given our cap situation which Holmgren clearly does not understand. he has no freaking clue that we are going to have to trade another important player on this team, most likely a forward to make the cap number work.
once again **** you Holmgren, and **** you Snider.

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09-21-2010, 11:52 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I know there are people here who dont like Bartulis, but the guy is still young and learning. Our young group of defenseman are not going to learn anything down in the AHL when they have already been down there and shown they can play down there. Holmgren getting Walker is proof that he doesnt like or trust any of our young defenseman.
I would take Bartulis, Marshall or even Bourdon over Walker especially given our cap situation which Holmgren clearly does not understand. he has no freaking clue that we are going to have to trade another important player on this team, most likely a forward to make the cap number work.
once again **** you Holmgren, and **** you Snider.
I plan to go to that Open House later in the season, and when they start talking about prospects, my first question will be "Why should we believe what you're telling us, when you keep finding people to stick in front of them?"

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09-21-2010, 12:02 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I plan to go to that Open House later in the season, and when they start talking about prospects, my first question will be "Why should we believe what you're telling us, when you keep finding people to stick in front of them?"
makes me wish I was a STH or lived down there. I would do the same. Sometimes I get the feeling that people in mangement think we are as fans as idiots.

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09-21-2010, 12:38 PM
  #35
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Walker will not be traded/waived until atleast january, just because Homer doesn't want things to look like he traded Gagne for 4th rounder only.

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09-21-2010, 12:42 PM
  #36
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Walker will not be traded/waived until atleast january, just because Homer doesn't want things to look like he traded Gagne for 4th rounder only.
yeah because by then Holmgren will think we would have all forgotten about the trade

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Old
09-21-2010, 12:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
Walker will not be traded/waived until atleast january, just because Homer doesn't want things to look like he traded Gagne for 4th rounder only.
Well then Shooter is a fool because ... a) You do what's best for the hockey club and not what makes you look best and ... b) Everyone would be happier if it was just a 4th and not Walker added into the deal anyway.

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Old
09-21-2010, 01:09 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
Walker will not be traded/waived until atleast january, just because Homer doesn't want things to look like he traded Gagne for 4th rounder only.
I'm not so sure. He might deal Walker to make room for Guerin.

I actually think they like Walker and might decide keep him for depth. Let's face it, if we had had a guy like O'Donnell or Walker to throw on on the ice last year the top 4 might've had enough gas left in the tank to win the Cup.

The Gagne deal was a salary dump, so he didn't need to get anything for him - nor does he need to be seen to be doing so. It's over, get over it.

He traded Gagne (and let Asham, Cote and Krajicek walk) for cap room to sign Meszaros, O'Donnell, Shelley and Zherdev. I think he improved the team - and they are certainly battle ready, bigger and deeper.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...nse_corps.html

A nice story about Walker, which may well contain the quote of the year, yes, this early:

"We really do have a big back end." Laviolette said.


Last edited by Larry44: 09-21-2010 at 01:30 PM.
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Old
09-21-2010, 01:20 PM
  #39
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I'm not so sure. He might deal Walker to make room for Guerin.

I actually think they like Walker and might decide keep him for depth. Let's face it, if we had had a guy like O'Donnell or Walker to throw on on the ice last year the top 4 might've had enough gas left in the tank to win the Cup.

The Gagne deal was a salary dump, so he didn't need to get anything for him - nor does he need to be seen to be doing so. It's over, get over it.

He traded Gagne (and let Asham, Cote and Krajicek walk) for cap room to sign Meszaros, O'Donnell, Shelley and Zherdev. I think he improved the team - and they are certainly battle ready, bigger and deeper.
In my case, and I believe a large number of other people's, it's not a question of if we are better. I think, more often than not, Homer does a good job of bringing in talent. The issue is HOW you do it.

I expect to really, truly like Meszaros, O'Donnell, Shelley and Zherdev as players. But that isn't enough. When you're building a team you have to consider the player vs their salary vs (in the case of the Meszaros and Gagne trades) additional assets required to obtain them.

I'm of the opinion it was entirely possible to assemble a similar team while giving up FAR less in assets (read: 2nd round pick and Gagne), as well as taking on less salary (read: taking on 3 defenseman at a total of 7 million dollars when we already had 5 capable NHL defenseman) both in the short term, and the long term, which could very well resulted in us NOT needing to trade Gagne.

So again, I expect to have no issues with the players we acquired; in fact I expect to like them. But that's not enough for me.

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09-21-2010, 01:52 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
There are a lot of things that Homer does that he shouldn't.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...7th-D/45/30245

A great article. Bartulis, as confirmed by the team, is NOT waiver exempt and would almost certainly be picked up by another team once the season (and injuries) started.
Finally they confirmed it. There are a lot of morons running the cap management there.

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09-21-2010, 01:54 PM
  #41
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so glad Homer signed him to a 3 year one-way contract extension after he played 5 games in the NHL

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09-21-2010, 02:38 PM
  #42
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When you're building a team you have to consider the player vs their salary vs (in the case of the Meszaros and Gagne trades) additional assets required to obtain them.

I'm of the opinion it was entirely possible to assemble a similar team while giving up FAR less in assets (read: 2nd round pick and Gagne), as well as taking on less salary (read: taking on 3 defenseman at a total of 7 million dollars when we already had 5 capable NHL defenseman) both in the short term, and the long term, which could very well resulted in us NOT needing to trade Gagne.

So again, I expect to have no issues with the players we acquired; in fact I expect to like them. But that's not enough for me.
Well, they wanted Meszaros more than they wanted to having him go somewhere else while missing out on Michalek or Volchenkov too (having missed on Hamhuis).

I have no problem trading a 2nd pick for a 25 year old Dman who will very likely be an absolute stud for us for years to come. None at all. Esp. on a team that is ready to challenge again. Marshall was picked in the 2nd round how many years ago?

As far as trading Gagne, get over it. It was a salary dump of a player they wanted rid of. As I documented on here before, Gagne said he was asked to waive about a month before he was dealt, right around June 18 or 19 when they acquired Hamhuis' rights.

That means in the week after they lost out, they did an assessment and decided Gagne had to go as priority one.

What does that tell you? It tells me they had to think about it for, oh, five seconds to decide. Which tells me they'd decided to do it long before that.

Why? We may never know. They may have still been mad that Gagne risked his season (although not the $5.25M the Flyers owed him) because he rushed back from surgery in a bid to make Team Canada when he wasn't healthy enough. That kind of thing ticks the Flyers off.

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landi...695&feedID=704

Whatever the reason, when they sat down to assess the season and plan for the next one, the first things on the agenda were:
1. upgrade the D
2. get rid of Gagne to do it.

And I really think they like Walker, so despite his high salary, he will can a valuable role player this year, in what should be a contending year. Then, if O'Donnell walks, they'll have Walker for the 3rd pairing to play with one of the kids.

Oskars, well, I like him but he's not really THAT good that he will be missed if they have to deal him. Marshall will be ready by next year, or maybe Bourdon or Gustafsson or Bodrov.

This idea that they coulda, shoulda, woulda done something else ignores the fact that the decisions teams make are done in real time.

It's easy to sit back and say, well, they could've had Volchenkov instead of Meszaros if they waited. IF is the operative word.

And some would argue that Mez is a better overall player, and there was no guarantee that Volch could be obtained. Bird in the hand at 11:45 on July 1 is better than two in the bush you never catch after 12 noon.

They tried to get Nabby and Turco, who had other agendas. They signed Leighton, then looked at Ellis too, but he preferred Tampa. What can you do?

Many teams fail in their bids to upgrade or replace players (see LA).

Homer doesn't. You can whine about the price or the salary all you want, but Homer has shown he can make the tough decisions he needs to make to get the players he wants.

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09-21-2010, 02:45 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
There are a lot of things that Homer does that he shouldn't.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...7th-D/45/30245

A great article. Bartulis, as confirmed by the team, is NOT waiver exempt and would almost certainly be picked up by another team once the season (and injuries) started.
How come no one is fired? Horrible, just ****ing horrible.

Year after year we get ****ed. These people do no tknow what they are doing.

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Old
09-21-2010, 02:55 PM
  #44
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I'm not so sure. He might deal Walker to make room for Guerin.

I actually think they like Walker and might decide keep him for depth. Let's face it, if we had had a guy like O'Donnell or Walker to throw on on the ice last year the top 4 might've had enough gas left in the tank to win the Cup.

The Gagne deal was a salary dump, so he didn't need to get anything for him - nor does he need to be seen to be doing so. It's over, get over it.

He traded Gagne (and let Asham, Cote and Krajicek walk) for cap room to sign Meszaros, O'Donnell, Shelley and Zherdev. I think he improved the team - and they are certainly battle ready, bigger and deeper.
How could Gagne of been a salary dump when they took more salary back from TB?

Gagne on an expiring $5.25mill contract, plus Flyers 2nd rd pick fro Meszaros.

Walker and Meszaros for $5.75mill in contracts and taking on more years.

Plus they traded for Meszaros on the very same day they inked Coburn.

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09-21-2010, 03:25 PM
  #45
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Well, they wanted Meszaros more than they wanted to having him go somewhere else while missing out on Michalek or Volchenkov too (having missed on Hamhuis).

I have no problem trading a 2nd pick for a 25 year old Dman who will very likely be an absolute stud for us for years to come. None at all. Esp. on a team that is ready to challenge again. Marshall was picked in the 2nd round how many years ago?
I'm glad you don't have a problem with paying your #5 defenseman $4M in a salary cap era. And to say that Meszaros is "likely" to be an "absolute stud" for years to come is a bit of hyperbole, to say the least.

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As far as trading Gagne, get over it. It was a salary dump of a player they wanted rid of. As I documented on here before, Gagne said he was asked to waive about a month before he was dealt, right around June 18 or 19 when they acquired Hamhuis' rights.

That means in the week after they lost out, they did an assessment and decided Gagne had to go as priority one.
Yes, because their assessment was based on the asinine notion that it's wise to pay your #5 defenseman $4M per year.

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What does that tell you? It tells me they had to think about it for, oh, five seconds to decide. Which tells me they'd decided to do it long before that.
It tells me they aren't exactly in the upper tier of the league in deciding how to best manage their cap space and assets.

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Why? We may never know. They may have still been mad that Gagne risked his season (although not the $5.25M the Flyers owed him) because he rushed back from surgery in a bid to make Team Canada when he wasn't healthy enough. That kind of thing ticks the Flyers off.
Or it could just be that Paul Holmgren is the only GM on the planet that thinks it's best to pay a #5 defenseman $4M per year to try and cover up a career backup goaltender because he failed to acquire an upgrade in a buyers' market. Could be that too.

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Whatever the reason, when they sat down to assess the season and plan for the next one, the first things on the agenda were:
1. upgrade the D
2. get rid of Gagne to do it.
Well, if this is true, then the fact that goaltending was not on that to-do list, and the fact that it was thought to be a good idea to upgrade our 3rd pair by throwing $5M combined cap dollars at it, along with losing our best two-way winger (and taking a salary dump in Walker as part of the return), suggests that maybe we need someone else making the decisions for this franchise.

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And I really think they like Walker, so despite his high salary, he will can a valuable role player this year, in what should be a contending year. Then, if O'Donnell walks, they'll have Walker for the 3rd pairing to play with one of the kids.
In a non-cap league, having Walker as a 7th defenseman making $1.7M would be great. However, here in the land of reality, its not feasible.

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Oskars, well, I like him but he's not really THAT good that he will be missed if they have to deal him. Marshall will be ready by next year, or maybe Bourdon or Gustafsson or Bodrov.
And if they can't deal him and lose him for nothing on waivers? That's ok too? Basically, it would be ok to overpay Walker and lose Bartulis for nothing because we have other players in our system? That's wonderful logic, and a great way to spin horrible asset management.

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This idea that they coulda, shoulda, woulda done something else ignores the fact that the decisions teams make are done in real time.
And clearly some of these decisions are "real time" mistakes, but a good many people will continue to defend them regardless.

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It's easy to sit back and say, well, they could've had Volchenkov instead of Meszaros if they waited. IF is the operative word.
It's also easy to say that they could have waited and signed another 3rd pair guy for around $1M (like every other team in the league), but that would also make sense too, so we can't have that.

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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
And some would argue that Mez is a better overall player, and there was no guarantee that Volch could be obtained. Bird in the hand at 11:45 on July 1 is better than two in the bush you never catch after 12 noon.
Doesn't matter what some would argue because it's irrelevant. We didn't need Meszaros or Volchekov or any other defender of that caliber making that much coin. Upgrading a teams' 3rd pair defense isn't rocket science and should never cost $5M in cap space to get done. Period.

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They tried to get Nabby and Turco, who had other agendas. They signed Leighton, then looked at Ellis too, but he preferred Tampa. What can you do?
Not re-sign Leighton before free agency even starts and instead, for roughly the same cap hit, offer Chris Mason the chance to be the #1 on a Cup contending team?

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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Many teams fail in their bids to upgrade or replace players (see LA).
I don't know what you do for a living, but at my job, if I fail...I don't have a job. It doesn't matter what the excuse is, the bottomline is that failure is failure.

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Homer doesn't. You can whine about the price or the salary all you want, but Homer has shown he can make the tough decisions he needs to make to get the players he wants.
He's also shown a great ability to **** up our cap structure, both now and in the future, and also a great ability to leave our prospect cupboards all but bare and piss away a ton of draft picks and assets. So yea, he's done well there too.

But hey, he got the players he wanted. It's not like overpaying or underselling your assets to do so has any relevance in a salary cap world or anything.

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09-21-2010, 03:41 PM
  #46
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I have no problem trading a 2nd pick for a 25 year old Dman who will very likely be an absolute stud for us for years to come. None at all. Esp. on a team that is ready to challenge again. Marshall was picked in the 2nd round how many years ago?
Based on what exactly? I guy that has been static or regressed the last 2 years doesnt get the stud for years to come tag just yet. He cold very well still nto get betetr and be the same player he was in Tampa.

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09-21-2010, 03:58 PM
  #47
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When did Gagne say he was asked to waive his NTC in June? Wasn't there a conflicting report in July where Gagne said he wasn't asked and Holmgren came back and said he did?

Whatever the story, that's not how tenured players are treated in this organization.

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Homer doesn't. You can whine about the price or the salary all you want, but Homer has shown he can make the tough decisions he needs to make to get the players he wants.
Tough decisions, huh? Like trade for a player that didn't want to be here. Or not sending Riley Cote to the minors because he felt bad for him. Or not wanting to sign free agents in an open market and panicking to sign Leighton and Boucher the year before. Then craps on Gagne out the door. What about the whole John Stevens thing, waiting until mid-season to fire him, when it was obvious the year before that there was no way we were ever winning a Cup with him. Seems like a slimy coward who doesn't want to be held responsible for his own mistakes to me.

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09-21-2010, 09:59 PM
  #48
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Bartulis > Walker

nuff said

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09-21-2010, 10:12 PM
  #49
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Bartulis > Walker

nuff said
They were both alright this game. My issue with Walker is that he has an absurd contract in terms of both money and length.

Bart is 600k until he is 26. In other words, free.

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09-21-2010, 11:02 PM
  #50
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i hate it whenever someone mentions getting rid of bartulis. do we really have good young D-men ready to step up in the next couple years? bartulis has already proven that he can atleast play a 3rd pairing roll in the NHL at a young age.

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