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Preseason Bill Guerin thread.. (Post #405 Guerin Released)

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Old
09-24-2010, 01:53 PM
  #101
funghoul
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he's horrible. he obviously wants it all to come to him. he's old. slow. nothing left. not even the ability to fly under the radar. He's blatant about his suckiness. He looks like he wants to be cut. that bein said i say we sign him for the comedy. its hilarious watchin him try to skate. and give him big minutes too. make him suffer for wasting our time.

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09-24-2010, 01:58 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
he's horrible. he obviously wants it all to come to him. he's old. slow. nothing left. not even the ability to fly under the radar. He's blatant about his suckiness. He looks like he wants to be cut. that bein said i say we sign him for the comedy. its hilarious watchin him try to skate. and give him big minutes too. make him suffer for wasting our time.
How have you not gotten an infraction for your name yet, btw? I thought this was an international board, surely someone knows Italian?

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09-24-2010, 01:59 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
How have you not gotten an infraction for your name yet, btw? I thought this was an international board, surely someone knows Italian?
Well, now that you outed him....

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09-24-2010, 01:59 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
At no point have you been realistic... you're acting like something negative has happened when, in fact, nothing has happened. A hockey player is playing hockey in the Flyers training camp... and may make the team.

That's it.
Annnd thanks for proving that you have no idea what you're talking about or what I'm talking about.

Like I've said a million ****ing times already
, I know nothing negative has happened. I'm just saying I don't think anything especially positive can come of it. There's a very big difference there.

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...There are 5o-whatever players in camp, Guerin isn't impacting their ability to get a look. This is a completely specious argument.
So you're just gonna ignore the fact that, right before acknowledging that Guerin is taking up a pre-season spot, I also acknowledged that I don't mind that Guerin is simply on a tryout.

Okay, keep ignoring what I'm saying. Have fun with that.

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Pronger, Timonen, and O'Donnell are defense. Boucher... seriously? Shelley... seriously? Briere, Laperriere, Richards, Carter, Hartnell, and Betts... all lack rings.
You said, very ****ing clearly, "veteran experience". Shelley is a veteran. Boucher is a veteran. Whether or not a player has rings doesn't affect whether or not they have veteran experience. So please be a bit more clear about what you're arguing next time.

Like I said before, **** like "cup experience", "locker room presence", and "veteran experience" just seems like something that people use to pump up players have little else to contribute. You could call Shelley a good locker room guy with veteran experirence, but i still don't ****ing want him.

If you want to pump up Guerin then try to use something a bit more tangible.

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Matt Walker probably won't even dress on a regular basis.
*once again clearly missing the point*

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Intangibles and experience matter... not as much as youth and talent, but we got plenty of the latter.
We have plenty of all of that.

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In the thread discussing that Guerin had been invited to training camp... meaning, before they had ever put on skates, you have 20 posts... the next closest is NWO. Are you telling me that if I go read through those 20 posts I won't find a pretty consistent mantra hating the idea?
Yes. Go on if you want. I've said the same exact ****ing thing the whole time.

I'm fine with the tryout itself, I just don't think anything positive can come of it.

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You've flipped on him even being invited, before a single preseason game was played, from the start... and you're continuing it.
I love how you keep exaggerating and making up stuff by describing me with hyperbole like "flipped". Gets better the more you do it.

I listed all the obvious warning signs before. It's not my problem if you choose to brush them off.

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Seriously... relax.
I am. Apparently discussing things on a discussion forum means I'm flipping out though, according to you.

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I'm also going to quote you from above:

1) Zero positive result.

2) Taking up space that would be better used by other, younger players.

Seems pretty *ing awful he's around to me.
I don't know if you like to ignore everything I said and take stuff out of context or what, but I clearly said right before that that I don't mind him getting a tryout and that the only reason it bothers me at all is because I don't see anything positive coming out of it. That doesn't mean anything negative is going to come out of it though.

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You are willfully ignoring a precedent, not a year old, of a team terminating the contract of a 35+ player and not paying his cap hit.
So are you going to ignore the part where I said I haven't been a hardcore fan long enough to discuss old moves?

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If you want to just ignore **** that happened, then I don't know what to say anyways.
Hey pot, meet kettle.

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In your opinion, fine... doesn't mean you need to be freaking the **** out about him in September.
You really love hyperbole.

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Not one of these points means that Guerin is done. Not one. Think about that.
So you're just going to brush all of those warning signs off again with not legitimate reason or argument? Awesome. I'm sure that those things, especially collectively, mean nothing at all and there's no such thing as a 40 year-old forward losing his stuff.

I'm done arguing with you. You're stuffing words into my mouth, you clearly don't understand what I'm trying to say, and you're choosing to just ignore all of the valid things I'm saying. I'm done here.

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09-24-2010, 02:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Dude, if Maroon or Legein are making this team they have some big troubles. They are AHL players, the closest guy to a callup would be Nodl and up to this point he has not shown the ability to finish consistently enough. Nice little player but a dime a dozen.




The guy gives experience and the ability to put points on the board. havign three lines that have the ability to score is how Homer has designed the lineup. My own preference would be to have a guy like Malhotra in the lineup as the 3rd line center and flank him with guys like Carcillo and Hartnell.





Locker room presence can also be considered an on-ice coach to kids like Giroux nad JvR who are still getting their feet wet. Having the ability to coach through the years of experience that a guy like Guerin brings is very valuable to young players just coming in and trying to figure it all out.




O'Donnell, Pronger and Guerin are the only ones to actually have their name on the Cup though.













If you are worried about a $550,000 roster spot to a 35+ contract you are looking way too far into this, expecially if Guerin gives them a better chance to win. Homer is the River Boat Gambler.




Crosby also worked at being more of a scorer, thus his 50+ goals. Jordan Staal had only 49 points, is he a dud too?




So you have no other plan, just do not let it be Guerin. Wow, nice problem solving.




After winning the Cup I bet they did not say that.



As stated before, the Pens also let Recchi go, does not mean the player cannot contribute elsewhere, sometimes it is just a change of scenery.

-No team wanted him so he now has to resort to a tryout contract.



Lidstrom is 40, does that make him a horrible player?




Poor enough to still be the 5th best scorer on the Pens roster.
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but I've been ignoring your replies. So I'm not sure why you keep quoting me.

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09-24-2010, 02:06 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but I've been ignoring your replies. So I'm not sure why you keep quoting me.
Yes I know, it is hard to argue with someone when you know they are right.

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09-24-2010, 02:08 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yes I know, it is hard to argue with someone when you know they are right.
That kind of attitude, that you just exemplified in your post, is exactly why I've been ignoring you.

I've been on message boards long enough and around people long enough to know that there's people you should take seriously and people you shouldn't take seriously. Guess what category I've put you in.

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09-24-2010, 02:17 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
That kind of attitude, that you just exemplified in your post, is exactly why I've been ignoring you.

I've been on message boards long enough and around people long enough to know that there's people you should take seriously and people you shouldn't take seriously. Guess what category I've put you in.
ummmm... choice number 3?

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09-24-2010, 02:17 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
ummmm... choice number 3?
All of the above?

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09-24-2010, 02:20 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm done arguing with you. You're stuffing words into my mouth, you clearly don't understand what I'm trying to say, and you're choosing to just ignore all of the valid things I'm saying. I'm done here.
I'm actually not... I'm taking what you're saying pretty literally.

For example, right there, you are stating that you don't care that he's in camp, but complaining that he's taking up time that would be better served by young players.

Your words:

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I don't care if he's in our camp. I'm just stating what I think to be fact. I don't see any positive result that could come of giving Guerin a tryout. None.

Albeit the fact that Guerin is taking up a preseason spot from some players that do deserve a look at (Maroon or Legein for example).
You want to have it both ways. You're arguing that you don't care, but then noting a specific grievance (which you clearly care about or you wouldn't bring it up), while also adding the caveat that there is zero positive value to him being in camp.

No positive value + negative value = negative value.

You're contradicting yourself in your very posts on Guerin as you present it as "fricking horrible idea" [your words from when he was first accepted the tryout] while at the same time trying to walk it back to some reasonable perspective of him just being one of many folks in camp.

And hiding behind historical ignorance is pretty weak... look it up man. Mark Recchi was clearly NOT done when he got waived by the Pens (as noted with him playing rather well against us in the playoffs last year). In fact, he's posted 144 pts in 214 games since the Pens decided he was "done." He was 39 y/o when the waived him. Same age as Guerin...

And Shanny happened last year. You were a member of this site when Shanny had his contract terminated.

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09-24-2010, 02:23 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Guerin has better offensive skills than Carcillo. Guerin in a wheel chair has better offensive skills than Carcillo.
And yet Guerin managed to score less even strength goals than Carcillo last season, with more ice time and playing alongside the best player in the world. Hell, he only had one more even strength goal than Darroll Powe.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The guys you're talking about... are almost certainly not going to provide a 20 goal season. Guerin could potentially do that.
C'mon Jester. Guerin scored 10 even strength goals playing next to Crosby last year. I mean, if you're advocating putting him on the PP than sure, I could see a possible 20 goals, but are you really advocating putting him on the PP?

This stance that Guerin is an offensive upgrade is a bit of a stretch. The Guerin of 2-3 years ago maybe, but the Guerin of today will cost you as many goals as he provides.

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09-24-2010, 02:23 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And hiding behind historical ignorance is pretty weak... look it up man. Mark Recchi was clearly NOT done when he got waived by the Pens (as noted with him playing rather well against us in the playoffs last year). In fact, he's posted 144 pts in 214 games since the Pens decided he was "done." He was 39 y/o when the waived him. Same age as Guerin...
To be fair, Recchi didn't look as bad as Guerin does at the moment. He still has some speed to him. I know it's all based on last year and preseason so far, but I'm just playing devil's advocate.

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09-24-2010, 02:26 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
And yet Guerin managed to score less even strength goals than Carcillo last season, with more ice time and playing alongside the best player in the world. Hell, he only had one more even strength goal than Darroll Powe.


C'mon Jester. Guerin scored 10 even strength goals playing next to Crosby last year. I mean, if you're advocating putting him on the PP than sure, I could see a possible 20 goals, but are you really advocating putting him on the PP?


This stance that Guerin is an offensive upgrade is a bit of a stretch. The Guerin of 2-3 years ago maybe, but the Guerin of today will cost you as many goals as he provides.
I have yet to see anyone refute that by any means other than ignoring it.

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09-24-2010, 02:29 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I have yet to see anyone refute that by any means other than ignoring it.
Well, it's pretty hard to dispute facts.

Guerin shouldn't be getting PP time here, and he hasn't been a 20-goal scorer at even strength since 2006-07. I guess maybe Crosby was just dragging him down.

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09-24-2010, 02:39 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Well, it's pretty hard to dispute facts.

Guerin shouldn't be getting PP time here, and he hasn't been a 20-goal scorer at even strength since 2006-07. I guess maybe Crosby was just dragging him down.
Well, he did learn how to start scoring more himself. So clearly that means Guerin shouldn't get ANY points playing on a line with him....

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09-24-2010, 02:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm actually not... I'm taking what you're saying pretty literally.

For example, right there, you are stating that you don't care that he's in camp, but complaining that he's taking up time that would be better served by young players.

Your words:



You want to have it both ways. You're arguing that you don't care, but then noting a specific grievance (which you clearly care about or you wouldn't bring it up), while also adding the caveat that there is zero positive value to him being in camp.

No positive value + negative value = negative value.

You're contradicting yourself in your very posts on Guerin as you present it as "fricking horrible idea" [your words from when he was first accepted the tryout] while at the same time trying to walk it back to some reasonable perspective of him just being one of many folks in camp.

And hiding behind historical ignorance is pretty weak... look it up man. Mark Recchi was clearly NOT done when he got waived by the Pens (as noted with him playing rather well against us in the playoffs last year). In fact, he's posted 144 pts in 214 games since the Pens decided he was "done." He was 39 y/o when the waived him. Same age as Guerin...

And Shanny happened last year. You were a member of this site when Shanny had his contract terminated.
Like I said before, you obviously don't understand what I'm saying and you obviously assume you know me well enough to know, for instance, when I started becoming a hardcore fan league-wide.

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09-24-2010, 02:40 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
And yet Guerin managed to score less even strength goals than Carcillo last season, with more ice time and playing alongside the best player in the world. Hell, he only had one more even strength goal than Darroll Powe.


C'mon Jester. Guerin scored 10 even strength goals playing next to Crosby last year. I mean, if you're advocating putting him on the PP than sure, I could see a possible 20 goals, but are you really advocating putting him on the PP?

This stance that Guerin is an offensive upgrade is a bit of a stretch. The Guerin of 2-3 years ago maybe, but the Guerin of today will cost you as many goals as he provides.
To a great degree, because Sidney Crosby sat down last summer and decided HE was going to score more goals... which he then went about doing. Just like when he decided to improve on draws.

Tough to score a lot of goals when your linemate decides he's going to start cashing in more.

Crosby scored 1.68 goals/60minutes last year of 5 on 5 play. It had been 1.16 goals/60 minutes the year before.

Crosby's primary assists last year were 1.14/60 minutes. Dropping from 1.31/60 minutes.

Now, before you simply blame Guerin for that... he also took the most shots of his career (what he specifically worked on).

There are other factors afoot...

Is Guerin the player he once was? Certainly not. But saying, "Oh, he was with Crosby..." doesn't necessarily work as some great critique of his goal scoring. Crosby spent the summer working on his shot and then spent the season proving it to the league. He was 5th in the league in SOG last year, and 19th in missed shots. He was putting the puck towards goal... a lot. The year before he was 39th in SOG, and 58th in missed shots.

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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I have yet to see anyone refute that by any means other than ignoring it.
There ya go.

I watched a lot of Carcillo *ing glorious chances from Richards last year... would rather see someone with Guerin's shot on the other side of the pass, frankly. Doesn't mean it will work out.

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09-24-2010, 02:43 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Like I said before, you obviously don't understand what I'm saying and you obviously assume you know me well enough to know, for instance, when I started becoming a hardcore fan league-wide.
Mark Recchi was cut by the Pens... can go look at: www.hockey-reference.com

Shanny, a 35+ contract, was terminated by a team a year ago without cap consequence.

Lack of being a hardcore fan isn't an excuse to ignore those points.

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09-24-2010, 02:49 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Mark Recchi was cut by the Pens... can go look at: www.hockey-reference.com

Shanny, a 35+ contract, was terminated by a team a year ago without cap consequence.
Apparently you don't get what "I'm done" means.

Quote:
Lack of being a hardcore fan isn't an excuse to ignore those points.
So...according to you, it's better for me to discuss something I have no knowledge about rather then simply acknowledge that I don't know anything about it and move on.

Thanks for showing why I don't feel like arguing with you.


Last edited by Garbage Goal: 09-24-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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09-24-2010, 02:54 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Apparently you don't get what "I'm done means".



So...according to you, it's better for me to discuss something I have no knowledge about rather then simply acknowledge that I don't know anything about it and move on.

Thanks for showing why I don't feel like arguing with you.
1) Google.

2) Recchi was brought up to counter your claim that because the Pens decided to part ways with Guerin this somehow should be taken as a clear sign that Guerin was, in fact, done. When someone comes along and posts an example of the Pens doing the same exact thing and being proven quite wrong, then maybe you can go look that **** up... rather than just plowing on ahead and claiming ignorance as a defense against that point.

The very point is that you lacked relevant knowledge in your assertion relative to the Pens decision making and Guerin. Not just that you didn't know about Recchi.

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09-24-2010, 02:56 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
To a great degree, because Sidney Crosby sat down last summer and decided HE was going to score more goals... which he then went about doing. Just like when he decided to improve on draws.

Tough to score a lot of goals when your linemate decides he's going to start cashing in more.

Crosby scored 1.68 goals/60minutes last year of 5 on 5 play. It had been 1.16 goals/60 minutes the year before.

Crosby's primary assists last year were 1.14/60 minutes. Dropping from 1.31/60 minutes.

Now, before you simply blame Guerin for that... he also took the most shots of his career (what he specifically worked on).

There are other factors afoot...

Is Guerin the player he once was? Certainly not. But saying, "Oh, he was with Crosby..." doesn't necessarily work as some great critique of his goal scoring. Crosby spent the summer working on his shot and then spent the season proving it to the league. He was 5th in the league in SOG last year, and 19th in missed shots. He was putting the puck towards goal... a lot. The year before he was 39th in SOG, and 58th in missed shots.
You're reaching. You are now blaming Crosby for Guerin scoring 10 even strength goals.

Ya know, maybe Crosby realized that Guerin could no longer accept a pass without ****ing it up, and figured he had to score more goals because Guerin simply couldn't. And since Guerin was playing alongside Crosby all the time, where are his even strength assists?

But I agree, it probably makes more sense to blame Crosby for working on his shot, so I stand corrected.

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09-24-2010, 03:02 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
You're reaching. You are now blaming Crosby for Guerin scoring 10 even strength goals.

Ya know, maybe Crosby realized that Guerin could no longer accept a pass without ****ing it up, and figured he had to score more goals because Guerin simply couldn't. And since Guerin was playing alongside Crosby all the time, where are his even strength assists?

But I agree, it probably makes more sense to blame Crosby for working on his shot, so I stand corrected.
Nah, dude, you don't get it. Guerin has played like utter **** for the last season+ so he can setup the ultimate comeback season with the Flyers.

Imagine the veteran experience he can bring. And the Cup rings. Bill Guerin is like two Chris Prongers or half a Kirk Maltby's worth of experience.

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09-24-2010, 03:06 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Nah, dude, you don't get it. Guerin has played like utter **** for the last season+ so he can setup the ultimate comeback season with the Flyers.

Imagine the veteran experience he can bring. And the Cup rings. Bill Guerin is like two Chris Prongers or half a Kirk Maltby's worth of experience.
To be fair, when looking at our forwards and figuring what Guerins' ice time is likely to be, I could see him scoring 15 even strength goals in a perfect storm of a season. He still has a good shot, when he can actually handle a pass and get that shot off.

In all likelihood, we are gonna replace Carcillo in the top-9 with Guerin and watch him **** up all those glorious scoring chances that guys like Richards creates. The only difference will be that Guerin is older, slower, doesn't play defense and turns the puck over like a hot potato. Any extra goals Guerin scores will be given right back.

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09-24-2010, 03:09 PM
  #124
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If Crosby decided to score more goals then sure that would hurt Guerin's ES goal totals, but it would also help his ES assist totals, no? Hartnell scored 60 points while barely able to stay on his skates long enough to take an undisciplined, easily avoidable penalty next to Carter during '08-'09. Lupul also scored 60 points that year while floating around center ice checking out the women in the stands for who he wanted to date **** later that night.

Long story short: Playing with linemates who are putting up a ton of points usually gives you some extra, sometimes undeserved, points. Even goalies get assists sometimes.

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09-24-2010, 03:11 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Well, he did learn how to start scoring more himself. So clearly that means Guerin shouldn't get ANY points playing on a line with him....
Yea, Crosby shooting more may have affected Guerins' goal totals. I can see that argument to a degree.

But then, if Crosby is scoring goals, and Guerin is riding shotgun, why isn't he picking up more than 17 even strength assists? I mean, he scored 27 even strength points last year, playing on a line with a guy who had 72 even strength points. It does not compute.

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