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Preseason Bill Guerin thread.. (Post #405 Guerin Released)

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Old
09-25-2010, 07:40 PM
  #176
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I'm convinced that Jester has either not watched Guerin play much or hates Carcillo so much that he'll take anyone over him.

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09-25-2010, 11:28 PM
  #177
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Guerin is a turnover machine. Carcillo takes 17 penalties for every 40+ he draws.

How are the two players even comparable?

Guerin ****ing sucks.

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09-25-2010, 11:59 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
First, his age means that he has virtually zero chance of coming anywhere close to the production he had last year.

Second, I'm not sure that there is any evidence that Lavi has major input in personnel decisions.

Third, if Homer is panicking for any reason, then we all know that he'll make a move regardless of what anyone else thinks (aside from Snider).
The 1st claim isn't necessarily true at all.

I would sincerely hope that if Holmgren is talking about signing a player and waiving a player coming out of camp he would consult with his head coach before making that move given the nature of the decision we're talking about. If his coach is saying to him "he's crap" and he brings him in anyway... then there's a serious systemic problem in place that goes well beyond Guerin. Which, would mean what should concern you has absolutely nothing to do with Guerin.

Taking a flyer on a veteran player for a cheap 1-year contract isn't panicking... it's taking a flyer. Of course, they still haven't signed him... so who knows.

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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Playing on Crosby's wing and getting power play time, yes. The average NHL 3rd liner could tally those numbers in that situation. We can dissect his stats all we want, but all you're doing is losing sight of the forest behind the trees.
The average 3rd liner isn't nearly as good as you seem to think he is.

In terms of production, you're looking at the 7th - 9th forwards on rosters, so the 180-270 range of players in the league.

180th forward in the league: 33 pts.
270th forward in the league: 19 pts.

Stick Ian Laperriere on Crosby's wing and give him PP time... he almost assuredly will not be scoring 21 goals.

And, again, we're talking about the 9th forward (potentially) on our roster.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm convinced that Jester has either not watched Guerin play much or hates Carcillo so much that he'll take anyone over him.
Actually, I would love to see the Lappy-Betts-Carcillo line put together again... since it was, ya know, the best 4th line in hockey last year before they pushed Carcillo up the lineup.

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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Guerin is a turnover machine. Carcillo takes 17 penalties for every 40+ he draws.

How are the two players even comparable?

Guerin ****ing sucks.
Because as of now, because of our GM, Carcillo is a scoring line forward. That's less than ideal.

Now, you may feel Guerin is less than ideal... and that's fine.

What's comical here is the insinuation that I'm arguing that we should sign Guerin. I haven't made that statement once.

I've said the following:

1) He doesn't have a contract... and until he has a contract it isn't a big deal he's in camp.

2) A 1-year, minimum deal is not a big deal. It really isn't.

3) His production last year wasn't the Greek tragedy people are making it out to be. People can piss-and-moan about playing with Crosby all they want, 45 points and 21 goals in the NHL isn't something to scoff at. It's the best league in the world, and you have to go and earn that.

4) I think Guerin is a *ing d-bag, and wish he wasn't on the roster as I don't take to players that try to decapitate their own teammates in practice.

The real problem with this team is that we don't have an actual third line center or a goalie. In addition to that, our GM gave a 3-year commitment to an absolute waste of space in Shelley.

Getting your panties in a bunch over them possibly taking a chance with Bill Guerin, is picking the least of our (potential) worries to complain about.

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09-26-2010, 12:26 AM
  #179
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With Betts out to start the season, maybe until Thanksgiving if the original reports hold true, who is to say Guerin isn't the one who is waived if a month or so into the season he is still worthless? Just because he stinks in pre-season and will probably be signed anyways, doesn't mean he'll still be here if he still stinks in November and December.

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09-26-2010, 12:32 AM
  #180
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Hey, Jester, check out his monthly splits last year. He was ****ing worthless by the end of the season and he'll be even worse at the end of next season.

He is done. He can't play anymore. I would take, literally, any young player instead of him.

We already have a goalie issue due to an injury. We don't need to waste 1M on Bill Guerin.

And, yes, everyone always thinks that every veteran is going to sign for league minimum and it almost never happens. He won't be making 500 or 600K if he signs. It will be 1M and that will be absurd with our salary cap situation.

He's been abused by AHL players and spent February through April doing jack **** last year. He'd be burned out and worthless by Christmas.

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Old
09-27-2010, 12:49 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
In preseason, for a guy trying to make the team, he isnt really showing much.
If you believe that Guerin is trying to "make the team" this is where you are mistaken. So long as he stays healthy or IF another player shows he deserves the spot over him he will be on the team. The anti-Guerin crew are putting too much into reasoning why Guerin should not make the team and why another player should beat him out for the position.

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09-27-2010, 01:28 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If you believe that Guerin is trying to "make the team" this is where you are mistaken. So long as he stays healthy or IF another player shows he deserves the spot over him he will be on the team. The anti-Guerin crew are putting too much into reasoning why Guerin should not make the team and why another player should beat him out for the position.
Not really. At the moment we are the roster cap, so Guerin has to force someone off this team.

And it is not the anti-Geurin crew. It is the anti waste of contract/roster spot crew.

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09-27-2010, 01:31 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If you believe that Guerin is trying to "make the team" this is where you are mistaken. So long as he stays healthy or IF another player shows he deserves the spot over him he will be on the team. The anti-Guerin crew are putting too much into reasoning why Guerin should not make the team and why another player should beat him out for the position.
Even if he has a roster spot, he is still technically, to the public, on a try out. He has been cruising around in all the preseason games. Sorry that isnt giving me confidence in a guy who will be playing in our top 9. The thing is, he is looking and playing exactly like he did last year in Pittsburgh, in our preseason games.

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09-27-2010, 02:03 PM
  #184
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not only would i take nodl over guerin any day of the week, i'd actually prefer putting an effigy of nodl made of hardened dog slobber on the ice to seeing guerin on this team....and i'm not particularly thrilled with nodl and his inability to finish opportunities. at least he can keep up with the game.

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09-27-2010, 02:23 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Not really. At the moment we are the roster cap, so Guerin has to force someone off this team.

And it is not the anti-Geurin crew. It is the anti waste of contract/roster spot crew.
If he makes the team and Laviolette puts him on the roster you have to assume that he made the team for a reason. If somone can beat him out for the spot I would assume player x would then make the roster. Problem is Nodl is not a good suggestion, he has zero scoring and still is an AHL roster player. Carcillo, like the guy but with the lineup as it stands it is hard to figure out where he would fit and as if he actually earns a spot. If it means Walker or Bartulis is waived I think we can live with that.

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09-27-2010, 02:26 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
If he makes the team and Laviolette puts him on the roster you have to assume that he made the team for a reason. If somone can beat him out for the spot I would assume player x would then make the roster. Problem is Nodl is not a good suggestion, he has zero scoring and still is an AHL roster player. Carcillo, like the guy but with the lineup as it stands it is hard to figure out where he would fit and as if he actually earns a spot. If it means Walker or Bartulis is waived I think we can live with that.
Pretty much this. If Guerin makes the team then he beat somebody for a spot. If he sucks like many of you are saying then he isn't making the team.

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09-27-2010, 02:27 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
not only would i take nodl over guerin any day of the week, i'd actually prefer putting an effigy of nodl made of hardened dog slobber on the ice to seeing guerin on this team....and i'm not particularly thrilled with nodl and his inability to finish opportunities. at least he can keep up with the game.
Nodl still is too unpolished at this point, if he is going to be given a chance to play on the roster he needs to show he can score, which he cannot do even at the AHL level. Nice AHL player, or NHL 4th line or fill-in for injuries, but not an every night player. If someone can win the spot, I would be happy to see it, but right now it looks bleak.

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09-27-2010, 02:28 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Nodl still is too unpolished at this point, if he is going to be given a chance to play on the roster he needs to show he can score, which he cannot do even at the AHL level. Nice AHL player, or NHL 4th line or fill-in for injuries, but not an every night player. If someone can win the spot, I would be happy to see it, but right now it looks bleak.
except nodl still has room to improve, and guerin will only get worse. don't get me wrong, i dont want to see nodl every night, but he'd be less frustrating than watching guerin be slow, lazy, and crappy.

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09-27-2010, 02:40 PM
  #189
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Please sign Guerin.


Thank you,
Pens Nation


J/K. I read this whole thread and while you would think you could plug Billy in on the 3rd line and not miss a step, you will be wrong. Guerin has lost 8 steps in 18 mos. He floats around, causes linemates to be offsides and is a turnover machine. There is a reason the Pens did not bring him back even though they are paper thin on the wings. He can still score on the PP as evidenced last year, but ES he was atrocious. I would love to give him a front office job, as I think he is a class act and have nothing but good things to say about his leadership skills during the cup run. But getting old is a *female dog*

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09-27-2010, 02:43 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Nodl still is too unpolished at this point, if he is going to be given a chance to play on the roster he needs to show he can score, which he cannot do even at the AHL level. Nice AHL player, or NHL 4th line or fill-in for injuries, but not an every night player. If someone can win the spot, I would be happy to see it, but right now it looks bleak.
...Playing on the fourth line doesn't equal an every day player?

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09-27-2010, 02:49 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
...Playing on the fourth line doesn't equal an every day player?
To fill the role of a 3rd line winger who can dig the corners and battle for rebounds around the net? Nope. Nodl is the classic safe player, he will not make many mistakes, decent skater, but has yet to find the ability to score at the NHL level, which makes him a fill-in or 4th liner of which there is no room, so technically Nodl is not an NHL every night player.

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09-27-2010, 02:57 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Mo Wanchuk View Post
Please sign Guerin.


Thank you,
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J/K. I read this whole thread and while you would think you could plug Billy in on the 3rd line and not miss a step, you will be wrong. Guerin has lost 8 steps in 18 mos. He floats around, causes linemates to be offsides and is a turnover machine. There is a reason the Pens did not bring him back even though they are paper thin on the wings. He can still score on the PP as evidenced last year, but ES he was atrocious. I would love to give him a front office job, as I think he is a class act and have nothing but good things to say about his leadership skills during the cup run. But getting old is a *female dog*
Jester Please read this.

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09-27-2010, 03:11 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Jester Please read this.
It tells a lot when you read a Pens fans analysis and take that for word, they still think Crosby does not dive because he is so "strong on his skates". If he makes the team it is because Laviolette felt he was a better fit on the roster and can play in his system, that is the bottom line.

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09-27-2010, 03:15 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
It tells a lot when you read a Pens fans analysis and take that for word, they still think Crosby does not dive because he is so "strong on his skates". If he makes the team it is because Laviolette felt he was a better fit on the roster and can play in his system, that is the bottom line.
What happens if he does make the team, and is an atrocity who plays terribly and winds up losing his spot halfway through the year?

Can those of us who said we shouldn't do it say you're wrong or will you hide behind the "hindsight is 20/20" defense and insist that it's okay because Lavi thought he could play?

Just because someone says they think something is true, does not make it fact or a good idea.

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09-27-2010, 03:23 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
It tells a lot when you read a Pens fans analysis and take that for word, they still think Crosby does not dive because he is so "strong on his skates". If he makes the team it is because Laviolette felt he was a better fit on the roster and can play in his system, that is the bottom line.
theres a difference betwee "does crosby dive?" and "does guerin suck?"

the first can be argued to a draw, because it's impossible to read crosby's mind every time he falls down. it just ends with one side saying "YES" and the other screaming "NO." the second can't really be argued, because its incredibly obvious that guerin sucks....just watch him.

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09-27-2010, 03:26 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
What happens if he does make the team, and is an atrocity who plays terribly and winds up losing his spot halfway through the year?

Can those of us who said we shouldn't do it say you're wrong or will you hide behind the "hindsight is 20/20" defense and insist that it's okay because Lavi thought he could play?

Just because someone says they think something is true, does not make it fact or a good idea.
What if he comes in and provides a solid balance for JvR and Giroux while scoring 17 goals, 20pts, and 13-15mins TOI? My point is IF Laviolette chooses to keep him you need to say that he evaluated the talent and felt he was the best choice. If he fails it is no different than the other reclamation projects on Homers roster. It is one move, one player to try and fill 13-15mins(maybe a little less) and possibly chip in a few goals and provide some on/off-ice leadership to kids like JvR and Giroux. And if he is offered a contract it had better be at/near the bare minimum.

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09-27-2010, 03:29 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
theres a difference betwee "does crosby dive?" and "does guerin suck?"

the first can be argued to a draw, because it's impossible to read crosby's mind every time he falls down. it just ends with one side saying "YES" and the other screaming "NO." the second can't really be argued, because its incredibly obvious that guerin sucks....just watch him.
I do not like to look at the small samples and what we see on the ice. I would assume that Laviolette is evaluating Guerin each and every day as to whether he would fit, so unless someone else beats him out if Guerin makes the roster it means Laviolette felt he was the best possible choice. If you want to argue that according to you it is the wrong choice I will argue that according to the coach and GM it may be the best possible choice....IF he makes the roster or is not beaten out by someone else.

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09-27-2010, 03:31 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
What if he comes in and provides a solid balance for JvR and Giroux while scoring 17 goals, 20pts, and 13-15mins TOI? My point is IF Laviolette chooses to keep him you need to say that he evaluated the talent and felt he was the best choice. If he fails it is no different than the other reclamation projects on Homers roster. It is one move, one player to try and fill 13-15mins(maybe a little less) and possibly chip in a few goals and provide some on/off-ice leadership to kids like JvR and Giroux. And if he is offered a contract it had better be at/near the bare minimum.
See, this is the problem around here. If you say something is a bad idea going in, people just say "WELL THAT WAS ALL PART OF THE PLAN." And then if it proves to be a bad idea, it's just "well, it was part of the plan, so we didn't know it would be that way so it was still fine."

I know the hope is that Guerin can play his limited ice time and chip in offensively and be solid defensively and all that. I was very excited that he came to camp because I believed he could do just that. However, since I've seen him play I am not convinced that he can do that job, so I'm worried that signing him will be a bad idea.

Given that he has had a bad training camp, if he fails it doesn't mean that it's forgivable because he was a reclamation project. When a player comes to your organization ON A TRYOUT and fails to demonstrate value, then makes a roster he doesn't deserve to be on and continues to play below the expectations for that roster spot, then that's not okay. And if he's only here on a "tryout" because he had a handshake in place and still fails to produce in the regular season, then that's only worse and further demonstrates why the good ole' boy approach to running the Flyers has continued to let us down with our on-ice product.

I'm not saying that WILL happen, guaranteed...it's possible he's sandbagging training camp because it doesn't matter and will do fine in the regular season (but doubtful). I'm just saying it's the most likely scenario, given what he's demonstrated. And if it just so happens that he does suck just as bad in the regular season as he has in preseason, I hope you'll be man enough to admit you were horribly wrong.

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09-27-2010, 03:36 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I do not like to look at the small samples and what we see on the ice. I would assume that Laviolette is evaluating Guerin each and every day as to whether he would fit, so unless someone else beats him out if Guerin makes the roster it means Laviolette felt he was the best possible choice. If you want to argue that according to you it is the wrong choice I will argue that according to the coach and GM it may be the best possible choice....IF he makes the roster or is not beaten out by someone else.
i'm not looking at a small sample either. he was garbage last season, he only got worse, and he hasn't improved. there's no logical reason to believe he would improve, unless you firmly believe in magic. if he makes the team, i'd have a lot of questions to ask lavi. i'd rather see carcillo and powe playing. i'd especially wish we had kept asham, if guerin gets ****ing signed.

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09-27-2010, 03:44 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
i'm not looking at a small sample either. he was garbage last season, he only got worse, and he hasn't improved. there's no logical reason to believe he would improve, unless you firmly believe in magic. if he makes the team, i'd have a lot of questions to ask lavi. i'd rather see carcillo and powe playing. i'd especially wish we had kept asham, if guerin gets ****ing signed.
I do believe in magic and do think that you could easily compare Asham and Guerin in their ability to skate, difference is Asham will drop 'em, the hope is Guerin will camp out around the net and just chip in some dirty goals. I would expect that Giroux and JvR will be carrying the puck(this is all assuming that Guerin would be the fit on the wing with those two, big assumption) into the zone. My only point is if the guys who are paid to do their job want to keep him then we should have the same faith expected of those who wanted Carter gone in a trade to provide a goalie.

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