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Old
09-27-2010, 04:21 PM
  #226
Mgkibbles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
I think it depends largely on his linemates. If he gets to play with Zherdev and JVR I expect large numbers. If he gets Guerin, Powe Carcillo, Nodl, or Testuide I expect much like last years numbers.
JVR - Giroux - Zherdev would just be unfair to the other teams

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09-27-2010, 04:34 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
JVR - Giroux - Zherdev would just be unfair to the other teams
This as a 3rd line would be dominant. I'm not too sure 60-70 points would be out of the question if they stayed healthy and got equal playing time.

But Giroux's always been pretty average statistically during the regular season. It's during the playoffs when we really see his full potential.

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Old
09-27-2010, 04:36 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
JVR - Giroux - Zherdev would just be unfair to the other teams
that line...

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09-27-2010, 04:57 PM
  #229
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He'll break Gretzky's records this season.

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09-27-2010, 05:00 PM
  #230
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He's Giroux he ****ing rules.

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09-27-2010, 05:00 PM
  #231
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Winger and PP, I think there's an outside shot at 70, at center, 50ish and probably a minus rating.

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Old
09-27-2010, 05:10 PM
  #232
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Wouldn't shock me. Clouded in his partial success here was that when he was in Phoenix, some felt he had a bad attitude. In 2007, they also didn't try to move him to another team when he and the team knew he wasn't going to play.


That stuff gets around though.

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Old
09-27-2010, 05:27 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
This as a 3rd line would be dominant. I'm not too sure 60-70 points would be out of the question if they stayed healthy and got equal playing time.

But Giroux's always been pretty average statistically during the regular season. It's during the playoffs when we really see his full potential.
Yea, the fact we're heading into the season with essentially three number one lines is pretty remarkable.

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Old
09-27-2010, 06:41 PM
  #234
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Who knows. One thing for sure is I am glad he is on our team.

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Old
09-27-2010, 07:20 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
He's a wild card, I think you can realistically peg him for anywhere between 45-75 points. His talent is undeniable but he lacks consistency (as most young players do) and I think he is going to have to attack the net with his stick handling or his shot more like he did in the playoffs.
He's not inconsistent. He's young, he has to compete and share ice-time with more top six forwards then any other team out there (and there's only so much to go around), he's consistently being flip-flopped between center and right wing, and he's often stuck with crap linemates.

Put Giroux in a traditional top six with legitimate scorers (meaning, not players like Asham or Carcillo) and I think he's easily a 60 point forward at this point in his career with potential to do much better.

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Old
09-27-2010, 07:27 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Winger and PP, I think there's an outside shot at 70, at center, 50ish and probably a minus rating.
Opposite for me. Center with a talented winger while playing PP on the wing, he has a shot at 70. On the outside most of the season, he has a shot at 50-60.

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Old
09-27-2010, 08:09 PM
  #237
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Honestly with Zherdev he will get 80 points. Did you see how they clicked...

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Old
09-27-2010, 08:13 PM
  #238
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People don't seem to realize how badly a XXX-Giroux-Zherdev line would get abused defensively.

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09-27-2010, 08:15 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
People don't seem to realize how badly a XXX-Giroux-Zherdev line would get abused defensively.
bingo.

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Old
09-27-2010, 08:20 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
People don't seem to realize how badly a XXX-Giroux-Zherdev line would get abused defensively.
Giroux's not all that bad defensively. I'd like to know who came up with that brilliant theory. It certainly wasn't Laviolette who seems perfectly content to put him on the PK.

Throw in someone half decent defensively like Nodl or Powe as the extra winger and add the best defense in the NHL...

Not really seeing the concern.

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Old
09-27-2010, 08:38 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Giroux's not all that bad defensively. I'd like to know who came up with that brilliant theory. It certainly wasn't Laviolette who seems perfectly content to put him on the PK.

Throw in someone half decent defensively like Nodl or Powe as the extra winger and add the best defense in the NHL...

Not really seeing the concern.
PK does not equal a good ES player, RJ Umberger is a great PKer, he also finished one year at -30 at C.

Here are some fun numbers.

Giroux's GFON/60 last year: 2.13.
Giroux's GFOFF/60 last year: 2.43

Translation: The Flyers scored more goals at ES when Giroux wasn't on the ice even with everyone else's season from hell.

Giroux's points per 60 at ES last year, 1.48. For point of reference, both Betts and Carcillo were at 1.44. Giroux was our worst ES player last season behind Powe and Laperriere.

You can't use the "oh he had horrible linemates" argument because his linemates finished with higher ES ratings, JVR averaged more points per 60 at ES than Roo did last year and JVR was a rookie who hit a MAJOR wall halfway through the year.

I really like Giroux. Kid has guts, intangibles, sick hands, and heart. But the facts are that he was one of our worst ES players last year and most of that damage came in the 2nd half of the season when he played C.

So I mean, the common rebuttal seems to have been, "well, his linemates sucked."

I got news for those people, JVR and Asham are both MILES better defensively than Zherdev. Put Giroux and Zherdev with Richards and you can sell it because Giroux is a nice 2-way winger. But putting Giroux at C with Zherdev on his wing is just asking for disaster.

I'd personally keep the Briere line together and hope they can reproduce whatever the hell kind of alchemy they had going last year and stick Giroux on a wing in the top-6 so he gets more playing time and isn't exposed defensively.

EDIT: I should add that while I like Lavi, line combinations seems to be a bit of a weak point with him.

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Old
09-27-2010, 08:52 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
PK does not equal a good ES player, RJ Umberger is a great PKer, he also finished one year at -30 at C.
Stop right there.

Are you saying that being a good PKer does not make you good defensively?

Or are you saying that being a good PKer does not necessarily make you a good even strength player?

Because honestly, I thought we were talking about defensive ability...

Playing PK on a team that already has Betts, Laperriere, Richards, Carter, Powe, and Gagne is a pretty big deal.

And I'm pretty sure if you get the nod for the PK, you have something to bring to the table defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Here are some fun numbers.

Giroux's GFON/60 last year: 2.13.
Giroux's GFOFF/60 last year: 2.43
This is offense isn't it?

I thought we were talking about defense?

Anyway, it makes sense that his offensive numbers were down compared to other lines when Asham is pretty bad offensively and JVR was rookie-walled for 2/3rds of the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Translation: The Flyers scored more goals at ES when Giroux wasn't on the ice even with everyone else's season from hell.
Makes sense, but again, why are we talking about Giroux's offensive play?

You seem to be suggesting that he will be just as bad offensively with Zherdev as he was with JVR/Asham.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Giroux's points per 60 at ES last year, 1.48. For point of reference, both Betts and Carcillo were at 1.44. Giroux was our worst ES player last season behind Powe and Laperriere.
That sounds quite a bit off, but I don't feel like looking into it. Too much effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You can't use the "oh he had horrible linemates" argument because his linemates finished with higher ES ratings, JVR averaged more points per 60 at ES than Roo did last year and JVR was a rookie who hit a MAJOR wall halfway through the year.
Yeah he did, but again, we're talking about Roux's offense or his defense?

I also want to point out that, like Richards, Giroux's offensive production during even strength is not nearly as high as his PP production.

To blame Giroux for this, is to basically blame Richards for being a bad even strength player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I really like Giroux. Kid has guts, intangibles, sick hands, and heart. But the facts are that he was one of our worst ES players last year and most of that damage came in the 2nd half of the season when he played C.
It certainly didn't look so bad in the postseason when his even strength points per minute were much higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
So I mean, the common rebuttal seems to have been, "well, his linemates sucked."
They kind of did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I got news for those people, JVR and Asham are both MILES better defensively than Zherdev. Put Giroux and Zherdev with Richards and you can sell it because Giroux is a nice 2-way winger. But putting Giroux at C with Zherdev on his wing is just asking for disaster.
Disagree. Your only evidence to support this is that Giroux doesn't score enough offensively when he's the center between Asham and JVR.

I'm not really sure what the implications are defensively for his offensive "deficiencies."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'd personally keep the Briere line together and hope they can reproduce whatever the hell kind of alchemy they had going last year and stick Giroux on a wing in the top-6 so he gets more playing time and isn't exposed defensively.
That's what I'd like to do as well, honestly.

I'd say:

Nodl - Richards - Giroux
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Zherdev
Hartnell - Briere - Leino

is my favorite top 9 lineup so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
EDIT: I should add that while I like Lavi, line combinations seems to be a bit of a weak point with him.
Awesome. You continue with that theory. Pretty soon you'll be running Laviolette out of town. It's a common theme here on the Flyers' board.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:14 PM
  #243
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50-65 probably,

ceiling is like 85 tho, might be in a bit tho

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:15 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
People don't seem to realize how badly a XXX-Giroux-Zherdev line would get abused defensively.
Nobody gives Giroux credit defensively, now obviously hes not a physical guy, but hes a smart player and can more than hold his own. Zherdev is another story sometimes though.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:19 PM
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Stop right there.

Are you saying that being a good PKer does not make you good defensively?

Or are you saying that being a good PKer does not necessarily make you a good even strength player?

Because honestly, I thought we were talking about defensive ability...

Playing PK on a team that already has Betts, Laperriere, Richards, Carter, Powe, and Gagne is a pretty big deal.

And I'm pretty sure if you get the nod for the PK, you have something to bring to the table defensively.
Not to be a huge dick, but you just don't understand hockey if you really believe that. Also, do you really think Lappy, Powe, and Gags could play C and do just fine?


Quote:
This is offense isn't it?

I thought we were talking about defense?

Anyway, it makes sense that his offensive numbers were down compared to other lines when Asham is pretty bad offensively and JVR was rookie-walled for 2/3rds of the season.
Asham is a pretty decent offensive player with a nice set of hands, Asham actually had the highest ES points rate on the team last year.

So again, a pathetic attempt at evaluation has been disproved, I'm enjoying this.

Quote:
Makes sense, but again, why are we talking about Giroux's offensive play?

You seem to be suggesting that he will be just as bad offensively with Zherdev as he was with JVR/Asham.
GAON/60: 2.54
GAOFF/60: 2.34

Not a huge gap, but noticeable considering Richie and Carts usually got the tougher matchups.

Quote:
That sounds quite a bit off, but I don't feel like looking into it. Too much effort.
All the effort of navigating to one website.

I know it's tough.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=PHI&pos=F

Quote:
Yeah he did, but again, we're talking about Roux's offense or his defense?

I also want to point out that, like Richards, Giroux's offensive production during even strength is not nearly as high as his PP production.
Giroux being a good PP player has NOTHING to do with the argument I am making.

Quote:
To blame Giroux for this, is to basically blame Richards for being a bad even strength player.
Well I'm sorry to break the news to you, but Richie is not a phenomenal ES offensive player. He's a defensive beast and an excellent PP player, but I'd hope that Giroux could create more offensively than Richards.

Quote:
It certainly didn't look so bad in the postseason when his even strength points per minute were much higher.
Oh boy, back to using 20 game samples as evaluation instead of 80 game ones! Fernando Pisani scored 14 PO goals once upon a time.

Quote:
They kind of did.
As previously stated, both JVR and Asham had higher ES points per 60 rates and both of them rated higher than him in positive ES impact (JVR = .07, Asham = -.04, Giroux, = -.50).

So, wrong again.

Quote:
Disagree. Your only evidence to support this is that Giroux doesn't score enough offensively when he's the center between Asham and JVR.

I'm not really sure what the implications are defensively for his offensive "deficiencies."
See, I love this argument. Both JVR and Asham had higher ES scoring rates than Giroux, but somehow it's their fault that he doesn't score as much?

It really makes absolutely zero sense.

Quote:
I'd say:

Nodl - Richards - Giroux
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Zherdev
Hartnell - Briere - Leino

is my favorite top 9 lineup so far.
Fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh
EDIT: I should add that while I like Lavi, line combinations seems to be a bit of a weak point with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
Awesome. You continue with that theory. Pretty soon you'll be running Laviolette out of town. It's a common theme here on the Flyers' board.
More fail.

I mean, even for you, this was just an incredibly bad post.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:21 PM
  #246
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Just stop talking FlyHigh, there hasn't been much logic in any of your post so far in this thread.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:24 PM
  #247
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We're still stuck on the idea that Giroux's offensive production at even strength is relative to his defense?

You were claiming that Giroux-Zherdev would get torn apart defensively. So far you've only complained that Giroux can't produce at even strength.

Am I missing something?

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:28 PM
  #248
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IMO Giroux is more willing and is more physical than Carter when it comes down to the nitty gritty. He may not be as big as Carter but he plays with more of an edge. It's hard for me to see who's better defensively but to say Giroux would get manhandled defensibly is a stretch.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:41 PM
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Just stop talking FlyHigh, there hasn't been much logic in any of your post so far in this thread.
Sorry that numbers aren't up your alley.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We're still stuck on the idea that Giroux's offensive production at even strength is relative to his defense?

You were claiming that Giroux-Zherdev would get torn apart defensively. So far you've only complained that Giroux can't produce at even strength.

Am I missing something?
I think a prime reason for Giroux's poor offensive performance is that his line spent most shifts in his own zone. I think once you get Giroux into the offensive zone, no matter what position he's playing, he's going to make stuff happen.

The key is getting him into the zone and FAR too often last year, that line was getting cycled on. Now I think there's definitely a strong argument to be made that Asham is a crappy defensive player and JVR is average. But they both look like Kris freaking Draper compared to Zherdev.

I could potentially see Giroux succeeding at C (though I still think it'd be a waste) in a Datsyuk like situation where he plays with big guys like Holmstrom and Franzen who are both strong defensively and do a lot of heavy lifting. I think that's a big reason the Briere line worked so well in the POs, Hartnell had an insane run of 8-10 games where he was unstoppable all over the ice.

But JVR and Zherdev are a far cry from that. You put a JVR-Giroux-Zherdev line together and who's doing the heavy lifting? JVR? I'm a huge JVR homer and even I know that's not likely. We don't have the personnel to stick Giroux in the middle and have a couple big guys on his wing, Flyers teams have been constructed to be big and strong down the middle for virtually their entire history.

It just doesn't compute. I don't feel like looking at game logs again, but Giroux was about -15 for the last 40 games of last season when he really started centering that line (he started the year on Richie's wing remember).

I personally think we're eventually screwed at that 3rd C position no matter what happens, it murdered us for much of last year till we got hot in April. But Giroux is somebody who has the potential to be an excellent 2-way wing in this league, so the more we mess around with him at C, the more we delay that process.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:42 PM
  #250
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Even Strength Point Production per Minute of Even Strength Ice Time
(2009-10 Regular Season + Postseason)

Briere: 0.0406
Carter: 0.0328
vanRiemsdyk: 0.0313
Hartnell: 0.0299
Giroux: 0.0286
Richards: 0.0246

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