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Old
09-27-2010, 09:45 PM
  #251
DrHamburg
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Ill just use simple math here. He got 16 minutes a game last season. Gagne Richards and Carter were the only forwards with more ice time. With gagne gone giroux will probably get another minute or 2 on the ice. He had 47 points last season. He started at the age of 21 and will be 22 so that should be better. Should have better wingers. Ill say 60-70 points.

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09-27-2010, 09:45 PM
  #252
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JVR this year

what's the outlook.

obviously with Simon Gagne traded that leaves only Leino and Hartnell as scoring wingers on your team.

is JVR gonna be a big part of the offense? expecting big things? lot of depth on the team, especially for power play time. I dunno, what's the projection. I'll admit it's fantasy related. I think he's a great talent but wondering if it's too soon for him to really become an offensive force for you guys.

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09-27-2010, 09:45 PM
  #253
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...not sure where you are going there?

A) Postseason stats are too finicky, you find guys every postseason that go on unreal runs and then go back to normal.

B) JVR and Hartnell still finish ahead of Giroux in that stat despite them having very long godawful stretches during the regular season (and JVR wasn't lighting it up in the POs).

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:47 PM
  #254
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I think they'll keep him moving slowly along, ballpark maybe 40-45 points, 55-60 as the absolute ceiling, but I'd bet 45.

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09-27-2010, 09:49 PM
  #255
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He bulked up in the off-season, I think he'll get around 40-50 depending on his linemates.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:52 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I think a prime reason for Giroux's poor offensive performance is that his line spent most shifts in his own zone. I think once you get Giroux into the offensive zone, no matter what position he's playing, he's going to make stuff happen.
Or the fact that his linemates outside of the PP were a rookie-walled JVR and a terrible Arron Asham.

And would you please stop playing up Asham's offensive abilities?

Besides, even if your theory is correct, which I don't believe for a second and there is certainly no evidence that I can think of to support such a claim, Asham and JVR are not more defensively responsible than Giroux. They're also certainly not better forecheckers. So if Giroux's line at even strength did have issues playing outside of its own zone, I highly doubt it was Giroux's fault.

Please note: Forechecking is not just checking when the puck is on the opposing team's end wall, since I know you're going to suggest that Asham is a better forechecker than Giroux.

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The key is getting him into the zone and FAR too often last year, that line was getting cycled on.
Really?

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Now I think there's definitely a strong argument to be made that Asham is a crappy defensive player and JVR is average. But they both look like Kris freaking Draper compared to Zherdev.
Agreed, but you said there were issues "keeping the puck in the offensive zone."

If there are cycles going on while Giroux is playing defense, it leads me to suspect there's a problem with the defense. It's the defense's job to win pucks and outlet. Since we know our defense, unless it was the third pairing, has no problem with that, I'm finding all of this pretty hard to believe.

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I could potentially see Giroux succeeding at C (though I still think it'd be a waste) in a Datsyuk like situation where he plays with big guys like Holmstrom and Franzen who are both strong defensively and do a lot of heavy lifting. I think that's a big reason the Briere line worked so well in the POs, Hartnell had an insane run of 8-10 games where he was unstoppable all over the ice.
The Hartnell - Briere - Leino stayed afloat and was dominant because it could successfully forecheck and keep the pressure on offensively.

We know Giroux can do that. JVR is alright but needs to get better at it. Asham, however, does not have the puck-skills to force the play or help generate offense.

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But JVR and Zherdev are a far cry from that. You put a JVR-Giroux-Zherdev line together and who's doing the heavy lifting? JVR? I'm a huge JVR homer and even I know that's not likely. We don't have the personnel to stick Giroux in the middle and have a couple big guys on his wing, Flyers teams have been constructed to be big and strong down the middle for virtually their entire history.
So you want JVR to do the heavy lifting defensively?

Honestly, that sounds like a pretty impressive forechecking lineup if JVR really is bigger. That said, our style relies of offense generated from the forecheck.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
It just doesn't compute. I don't feel like looking at game logs again, but Giroux was about -15 for the last 40 games of last season when he really started centering that line (he started the year on Richie's wing remember).
Nothing you're saying is computing honestly.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I personally think we're eventually screwed at that 3rd C position no matter what happens, it murdered us for much of last year till we got hot in April. But Giroux is somebody who has the potential to be an excellent 2-way wing in this league, so the more we mess around with him at C, the more we delay that process.
Giroux has the potential to be an excellent 2-way forward in this league regardless of whether he plays wing or center.

That said, so far he has looked much better at center, when the puck is on his tape more often than not.

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:55 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Or the fact that his linemates outside of the PP were a rookie-walled JVR and a terrible Arron Asham.
Que?

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Old
09-27-2010, 09:58 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by wahoowa View Post
Que?
As in terrible offensively.

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Old
09-27-2010, 11:00 PM
  #259
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What's your projected line-up? You guys have so many players who can play a top 6 role...and it's the same for defensemen...most of them can play on the PP. If you had a real starter, it would be scary...

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09-27-2010, 11:43 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
What's your projected line-up? You guys have so many players who can play a top 6 role...and it's the same for defensemen...most of them can play on the PP. If you had a real starter, it would be scary...
There are no established lines (except maybe the second line listed) and Laviolette has said he could change positions (Carter/Richards, C/W for example could be on the ice together) based on game events. This is just a sampling and the remainder of the preseason games will determine positions.

FORWARDS
Claude Giroux, Mike Richards, N. Zherdev
Scott Hartnell, Danny Briere, Ville Leino
James van Riemsdyk, Jeff Carter, Bill Guerin
Jody Shelley/Dan Carcillo, Blair Betts/Darroll Powe, Ian Laperriere

DEFENSE
Matt Carle, Chris Pronger
Kimmo Timonen, Andrej Meszaros
Braydon Coburn, Sean O’Donnell
Oskars Bartulis + Matt Walker


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 09-27-2010 at 11:51 PM.
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Old
09-28-2010, 05:28 AM
  #261
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Again, Asham averaged the most ES points per 60 on the entire team last year. So I mean, you can scream and moan about him all you want, the facts are that had only 2 fewer ES points than Giroux despite averaging 10 mins a game.

I'm not arguing that Asham as our best ES guy, simply that he had a good offensive ES performance in limited time last year. You seem to be basing your argument on "Asham sucked" despite Asham playing better than Giroux at ES last year.

It's really an argument that makes absolutely zero sense, but if you want to delude yourself, that's fine.

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Old
09-28-2010, 06:11 AM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Again, Asham averaged the most ES points per 60 on the entire team last year. So I mean, you can scream and moan about him all you want, the facts are that had only 2 fewer ES points than Giroux despite averaging 10 mins a game.

I'm not arguing that Asham as our best ES guy, simply that he had a good offensive ES performance in limited time last year. You seem to be basing your argument on "Asham sucked" despite Asham playing better than Giroux at ES last year.

It's really an argument that makes absolutely zero sense, but if you want to delude yourself, that's fine.
And you've still yet to tell me how offense has anything to do with Giroux's defensive abilities...

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Old
09-28-2010, 09:46 AM
  #263
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Did Andy Strickland leave Hockeybuzz? I see he has "Andy Strickland's True Hockey" which suggests to me that some other places are not "True Hockey." More like "False Hockey." With liars. And people asking their dog for the latest scoop.

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Old
09-28-2010, 10:01 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Did Andy Strickland leave Hockeybuzz? I see he has "Andy Strickland's True Hockey" which suggests to me that some other places are not "True Hockey." More like "False Hockey." With liars. And people asking their dog for the latest scoop.
His image is still on HockeyBuzz with a recent column.

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Old
09-28-2010, 11:29 AM
  #265
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Wade Redden cleared waivers for the Rangers.

Smartest move Sather has made in a while.

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Old
09-28-2010, 01:05 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As in terrible offensively.
Asham is not "terrible" offensively. He's a solid 3rd liner in the NHL offensively throughout his career. Over 82 games, he's paced to 10-15-25 with quite good consistency, with only one "bad" season on his resume with the Devs. All while playing a limited role as far as minutes goes.

If Asham is "terrible" offensively, what is Betts apocalyptic?

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Old
09-28-2010, 01:22 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Asham is not "terrible" offensively. He's a solid 3rd liner in the NHL offensively throughout his career. Over 82 games, he's paced to 10-15-25 with quite good consistency, with only one "bad" season on his resume with the Devs. All while playing a limited role as far as minutes goes.

If Asham is "terrible" offensively, what is Betts apocalyptic?
Yes, then Betts is apocalyptic.

Asham does not help our offense. He's good for a pretty goal every 30 or so games and some tip-ins thrown in between, probably in large part due to playing with Claude Giroux.

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Old
09-28-2010, 01:27 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yes, then Betts is apocalyptic.

Asham does not help our offense. He's good for a pretty goal every 30 or so games and some tip-ins thrown in between, probably in large part due to playing with Claude Giroux.
Dude, for christ-sakes. Asham has been in the league for over 10 years at this point. He has 4 10 goals seasons out of 6 in which he played 70 or more games. He easily would have had another 10 goal season in which he had 9 in 63 games.

He's good for 10 goals a year in the NHL if he takes a consistent shift and plays a full season. Completely independent of Claude Giroux. Give the man a little bit of *ing credit, he's had an NHL career since prior to Giroux getting his ass drafted.

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Old
09-28-2010, 01:29 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yes, then Betts is apocalyptic.

Asham does not help our offense. He's good for a pretty goal every 30 or so games and some tip-ins thrown in between, probably in large part due to playing with Claude Giroux.
Yeah, what Jester said.

Asham is excellent offensively for a bottom six player. He didn't need Claude Giroux's help to score last year. He's been a consistent scoring bottom six player throughout his career. If anything, I remember most of his goals coming through his own play.

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09-28-2010, 02:50 PM
  #270
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Asham is no slouch, and his numbers was definitely not due to playing with Giroux. At the same time I think a lot of you guys are overrating him. There's a reason he's had such little playing time during his career, his defensive play was not what you'd want from a veteran on your bottom six and his offense came in spurts. He produced, but he was sure not consistent at doing so (even if he's been consistent in his production over his career... I guess he's been constistently inconsistent).

I didnt' want to resign Asham, since I thought that this year we could have upgraded on Asham as our 9th forward, either by adding a better winger or getting a 3rd line center.

Also, Giroux will never win the Selke trophy, but for a sophomore guy, not that used to playing center in the NHL he was fairly decent last year defensively. I still want him on Richards wing though.

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Old
09-28-2010, 03:38 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
And you've still yet to tell me how offense has anything to do with Giroux's defensive abilities...
You apparently missed my entire theory about how that line was consistently pinned and that Giroux put up worse stats on GA when he was on as opposed to when he was off despite not having very demanding matchups.

I mean really, the guy played the last half of 09-10 at C and in his last 40 games, he was about -15. Additionally, both of his linemates outperformed him. What more do you honestly need to know there?

Dude is going to be a studly wing, why waste him at C, especially when we have an awesome 1-2 punch for the next 10 years.

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Old
09-28-2010, 04:05 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You apparently missed my entire theory about how that line was consistently pinned and that Giroux put up worse stats on GA when he was on as opposed to when he was off despite not having very demanding matchups.

I mean really, the guy played the last half of 09-10 at C and in his last 40 games, he was about -15. Additionally, both of his linemates outperformed him. What more do you honestly need to know there?

Dude is going to be a studly wing, why waste him at C, especially when we have an awesome 1-2 punch for the next 10 years.
Because rolling three scoring lines is a lot sexier and you don't need a real bottom 6 anymore.

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Old
09-28-2010, 04:20 PM
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
Because rolling three scoring lines is a lot sexier and you don't need a real bottom 6 anymore.
So even if we put Giroux there and he finishes -15 or -20 and struggles to make a positive impact, that's okay because it's "sexy"?

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Old
09-28-2010, 04:22 PM
  #274
Jester
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Quote:
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So even if we put Giroux there and he finishes -15 or -20 and struggles to make a positive impact, that's okay because it's "sexy"?
Hey man, it may look *ing fantastic next to Briere's +/- by December.

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Old
09-28-2010, 04:24 PM
  #275
Garbage Goal
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Hey man, it may look *ing fantastic next to Briere's +/- by December.
Yeah, if we're rolling out three scoring lines then we have to have three centers for them. That's just fact. Which means either Giroux or Briere has to center the third one.

I don't care what argument you make or what kind of numbers you throw out there, defensively-speaking, I'm going to take Giroux over Briere every time.

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