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Preseason Bill Guerin thread.. (Post #405 Guerin Released)

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Old
09-27-2010, 03:46 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
See, this is the problem around here. If you say something is a bad idea going in, people just say "WELL THAT WAS ALL PART OF THE PLAN." And then if it proves to be a bad idea, it's just "well, it was part of the plan, so we didn't know it would be that way so it was still fine."

I know the hope is that Guerin can play his limited ice time and chip in offensively and be solid defensively and all that. I was very excited that he came to camp because I believed he could do just that. However, since I've seen him play I am not convinced that he can do that job, so I'm worried that signing him will be a bad idea.

Given that he has had a bad training camp, if he fails it doesn't mean that it's forgivable because he was a reclamation project. When a player comes to your organization ON A TRYOUT and fails to demonstrate value, then makes a roster he doesn't deserve to be on and continues to play below the expectations for that roster spot, then that's not okay. And if he's only here on a "tryout" because he had a handshake in place and still fails to produce in the regular season, then that's only worse and further demonstrates why the good ole' boy approach to running the Flyers has continued to let us down with our on-ice product.

I'm not saying that WILL happen, guaranteed...it's possible he's sandbagging training camp because it doesn't matter and will do fine in the regular season (but doubtful). I'm just saying it's the most likely scenario, given what he's demonstrated. And if it just so happens that he does suck just as bad in the regular season as he has in preseason, I hope you'll be man enough to admit you were horribly wrong.
There is an old saying I have used in the past....give someone enough rope to hang themselves, it is up to Homer and Laviolette to finalize the roster and live with their decisions. At this point we are so deep in Homers mess that you really have no choice, it is what it is.

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09-27-2010, 03:47 PM
  #202
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I hope we dont sign him. I would honestly rather Carcillo on a scoring line, at least he can skate

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09-27-2010, 03:53 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
My only point is if the guys who are paid to do their job want to keep him then we should have the same faith expected of those who wanted Carter gone in a trade to provide a goalie.
just because homer gets paid to be a GM, doesn't mean he's a good one.



unfortunately.

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09-27-2010, 04:01 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
just because homer gets paid to be a GM, doesn't mean he's a good one.



unfortunately.
I'm sorry but what mess are we in that the rest of the league is not? We went to the finals last year, have some great young players to build a team around. One of the best D-men of all time. A stacked lineup and two your promising #1 goaltenders. And we now have first round picks again.

I don't understand why people bash homer. Since he took over this team has competed every single year and last year went to the finals. He brought Lavy here, who is one of the best coaches we have ad for a long time. I heard people crying about him when we got him, but he is an excellent coach. I think our organization is in a great position right now with lots of movable assets.

Every team has salary problems. Even the oilers have Souray and they are much further under the cap. Homer has done a fine job as GM and I am very excited about the season. Even if we do sign Bill Guerin, its not the end of the world. He actually has shown me that he can play another season. He will not put up great numbers, but he can play without hurting the team on the scoreboard.

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09-27-2010, 04:07 PM
  #205
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Cartsie, give us your honest opinion, how did do you think Guerin did this preseason?

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09-27-2010, 04:30 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by HighOFFHockey View Post
I'm sorry but what mess are we in that the rest of the league is not? We went to the finals last year, have some great young players to build a team around. One of the best D-men of all time. A stacked lineup and two your promising #1 goaltenders. And we now have first round picks again.

I don't understand why people bash homer. Since he took over this team has competed every single year and last year went to the finals. He brought Lavy here, who is one of the best coaches we have ad for a long time. I heard people crying about him when we got him, but he is an excellent coach. I think our organization is in a great position right now with lots of movable assets.

Every team has salary problems. Even the oilers have Souray and they are much further under the cap. Homer has done a fine job as GM and I am very excited about the season. Even if we do sign Bill Guerin, its not the end of the world. He actually has shown me that he can play another season. He will not put up great numbers, but he can play without hurting the team on the scoreboard.
i wont go into specifics, like how he created every problem he now has, despite much of it being avoidable...but to begin with, the ****ing goalie situation alone is reason enough to rip homer a new *******.

signing guerin isnt the end of the world. its just another pointless move, in an offseason of questionable moves.

edit: oh, and then there's the gagne debacle. at least he's got an eye for talent. also, i didnt say he's the worst gm. i just said he isnt a good one.

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09-27-2010, 07:26 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by HighOFFHockey View Post
I'm sorry but what mess are we in that the rest of the league is not? We went to the finals last year, have some great young players to build a team around. One of the best D-men of all time. A stacked lineup and two your promising #1 goaltenders. And we now have first round picks again.

I don't understand why people bash homer. Since he took over this team has competed every single year and last year went to the finals. He brought Lavy here, who is one of the best coaches we have ad for a long time. I heard people crying about him when we got him, but he is an excellent coach. I think our organization is in a great position right now with lots of movable assets.

Every team has salary problems. Even the oilers have Souray and they are much further under the cap. Homer has done a fine job as GM and I am very excited about the season. Even if we do sign Bill Guerin, its not the end of the world. He actually has shown me that he can play another season. He will not put up great numbers, but he can play without hurting the team on the scoreboard.
That's probably your problem right there.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
i wont go into specifics, like how he created every problem he now has, despite much of it being avoidable...but to begin with, the ****ing goalie situation alone is reason enough to rip homer a new *******.

signing guerin isnt the end of the world. its just another pointless move, in an offseason of questionable moves.

edit: oh, and then there's the gagne debacle. at least he's got an eye for talent. also, i didnt say he's the worst gm. i just said he isnt a good one.
I don't follow all the other GMs to know how good or bad they are, but if someone called Homer the worst GM in the league right now, I wouldn't argue with them.

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09-28-2010, 03:14 AM
  #208
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Through three preseason games, veteran Bill Guerin seems to have Flyers upper management split as to whether he will earn a contract by the time training camp ends on Oct. 6.

Guerin, 39, scored his first goal as a Flyer on Thursday against Toronto in London, Ontario, and also added a goal in the 11-round shootout.

Paul Holmgren didn't exactly give him a ringing endorsement.

"We're still trying to piece together how things look," Holmgren said. "Some of our young kids have played really well. Ben Holmstrom's been good, [Andreas] Nodl has been good, [Mike] Testwuide played a real good game on Friday night. So, there's a lot of people who are making life difficult on us for decision-making. That's a good thing."

It might not be such a good thing for Guerin, who has 429 goals in 18 NHL seasons. That doesn't mean he's changing his attitude, which already has won over his newest teammates.

"I'm trying to approach it the same way," Guerin said. "I've been successful doing things one way in my career. I would just as soon continue that and not put any added pressure on myself to try to do anything special. I'm a pretty basic player, a simple player. I'm not going to try to do things that I'm not capable of doing."
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...week_away.html

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09-28-2010, 03:46 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post

I don't follow all the other GMs to know how good or bad they are, but if someone called Homer the worst GM in the league right now, I wouldn't argue with them.
I think it would be a dumb thing to say..

I don't agree with a lot of his moves but this is a damn good hockey team.

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09-28-2010, 03:47 AM
  #210
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Bill Guerin doesn't need to be on this team unless he some how shows out for the rest of his try-out contract.

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09-28-2010, 07:56 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by HighOFFHockey View Post
I'm sorry but what mess are we in that the rest of the league is not? We went to the finals last year, have some great young players to build a team around. One of the best D-men of all time. A stacked lineup and two your promising #1 goaltenders. And we now have first round picks again.

I don't understand why people bash homer. Since he took over this team has competed every single year and last year went to the finals. He brought Lavy here, who is one of the best coaches we have ad for a long time. I heard people crying about him when we got him, but he is an excellent coach. I think our organization is in a great position right now with lots of movable assets.

Every team has salary problems. Even the oilers have Souray and they are much further under the cap. Homer has done a fine job as GM and I am very excited about the season. Even if we do sign Bill Guerin, its not the end of the world. He actually has shown me that he can play another season. He will not put up great numbers, but he can play without hurting the team on the scoreboard.
I don't get how people don't get this...

It isn't alright to just say "Since he took over this team has competed every single year and last year went to the finals"...that's stating the obvious and failing to actually THINK about what has happened.

He inherited a team that had incredible young (also mind you....CHEAP) talent (Carter, Richards, Giroux), a 2nd overall pick (JVR), a valuable trading chip (Forsberg) and a buttload of cap space. He did a good job of bringing in some talent with the assets he had (Briere, Kimmo, Hartnell, Upshall...later Pronger etc).

However, the issue isn't in merely what team has he put together, it is in HOW it was put together. I think a lot of GMs could have put together a team that would compare to ours (in terms of success) given the assets/cap space Homer was given to work with. It's really not all that difficult to throw a bunch of money at Briere, Kimmo, Hartnell, and give them NMC/NTC. All our cap sapce allowed that, and then just like that, it was gone. I think a lot of GMs could have done better. As a few people have said, he has MAJOR issues handling a cap. Every problem this team has, was brought on by Homer's own doing.

If I took some roundabout, inefficient way of accomplishing my job at work, yea my boss would probably be pleased. The naive boss says "cool, he's doing his job", the innovative, proactive boss says "yea he finished it but, he really could have beaten this deadline 2 weeks prior". The innovative boss realizes that in order to improve, you need to not only accomplish your goal (and I'd argue that in this case, it's a pretty easily attainable goal with all of the talent/assets he had), but do so more efficiently than you have been.

It's almost like saying "Here's 50k go buy a sweet car". Well, at that point, a whole lot of people would succeed in buying a sweet car. And then yea, he has an awesome car, but he paid 10k more than he had to because he didn't even try to haggle.

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09-28-2010, 08:00 AM
  #212
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Holmgren usually has a good eye for talent (Coburn, Leino, etc) but he overpays on every contract and overpays in every trade.

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09-28-2010, 08:19 AM
  #213
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Holmgren usually has a good eye for talent (Coburn, Leino, etc) but he overpays on every contract and overpays in every trade.
You said it much more concisely than I did.

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09-28-2010, 08:20 AM
  #214
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Apparently Guerin has a buttload of intangibles. I'm sold.

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09-28-2010, 08:33 AM
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Apparently Guerin has a buttload of intangibles. I'm sold.
Unfortunately it's the tangibles that are lacking.

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09-28-2010, 08:34 AM
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Unfortunately it's the tangibles that are lacking.
it depends on how much poutine he brings to the table.

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09-28-2010, 09:16 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Holmgren usually has a good eye for talent (Coburn, Leino, etc) but he overpays on every contract and overpays in every trade.
That's too wide a brush. He didn't overpay for Leino or Coburn. Heck, he didn't overpay for Zhitnik. As to the middle part of your post (overpays on every contract), I'd agree except for Richards'.

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09-28-2010, 09:17 AM
  #218
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Holmgren usually has a good eye for talent (Coburn, Leino, etc) but he overpays on every contract and overpays in every trade.
Yep, his background as a scout serves him well... it's just in contract management/structure that he fails pretty hard. A cheap, 1-year deal (assuming it's that, and not something stupid) isn't a big deal on that front, though. Of course, he could go Full Holmgren and offer him an idiotic deal... however, those quotes above sound like the 100% chance of Guerin being on this team have diminished considerably.

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09-28-2010, 10:38 AM
  #219
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I hope we dont sign him. I would honestly rather Carcillo on a scoring line, at least he can skate
But he has not proven he can score on a consistent basis, which is my theory as to why Guerin is in camp in the first place. Plus which line do you put him on? I like the idea of a Zherdev-Richards-Carter line and the Leino-Briere-Hartnell line is supposedly intact as well, which leads us to the quandry....can you put a guy like Carcillo who has shown some glimpses of being able to play on a line with two players who have above average ice vision?

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09-28-2010, 10:42 AM
  #220
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Cartsie, give us your honest opinion, how did do you think Guerin did this preseason?
I do not think Guerin has proven much at all, neither has Meszaros or Walker. JvR has struggled a little bit, Carcillo is not helping his case....plenty of question marks, but what we do not see is what Laviolette does see. How does he do during drills and what is the reason for him being there in the first place? My personal opinion is that have Guerin in uniform is a obvious statement that they are looking for another winger to help with scoring depth and I do not think they are looking too deep into whether he is scoring a point a night or how some guys on a hockey forum evaluate their ability to evaluate the talent they see on a daily basis.

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09-28-2010, 10:47 AM
  #221
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I think it would be a dumb thing to say..

I don't agree with a lot of his moves but this is a damn good hockey team.
Look at DUHockey's post. That explains it pretty well.

He inherited a team that was ready to succeed. A very large amount of the core that's here now was in place when he took over. He had fricking Peter Forsberg (pre-injury) to trade. He wasn't exactly in a bad position.

He's put a good team together now, definitely, but he's given out so many bad contracts and has made so many bad trades that, probably in anywhere from one to three years, his ****** management of the cap and continual trading of all our high picks is going to come back to bite us in the ass in a big way.

A competent GM wouldn't have made a lot of the mistakes that he's made and wouldn't have set us up for trouble in the future.

Besides, what hast Homer won so far? He hasn't won a division chamionship IIRC and the team has only been to the SCF once and lost. We've made the playoffs every year, sure, but last year was the first year that anything of note happened in the playoffs for us and even then we were extremely fortunate to get to the SCF last year.

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09-28-2010, 10:49 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I do not think Guerin has proven much at all, neither has Meszaros or Walker. JvR has struggled a little bit, Carcillo is not helping his case....plenty of question marks, but what we do not see is what Laviolette does see. How does he do during drills and what is the reason for him being there in the first place? My personal opinion is that have Guerin in uniform is a obvious statement that they are looking for another winger to help with scoring depth and I do not think they are looking too deep into whether he is scoring a point a night or how some guys on a hockey forum evaluate their ability to evaluate the talent they see on a daily basis.
who gives a **** how he does in practice with drills?

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09-28-2010, 10:52 AM
  #223
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But he has not proven he can score on a consistent basis, which is my theory as to why Guerin is in camp in the first place. Plus which line do you put him on? I like the idea of a Zherdev-Richards-Carter line and the Leino-Briere-Hartnell line is supposedly intact as well, which leads us to the quandry....can you put a guy like Carcillo who has shown some glimpses of being able to play on a line with two players who have above average ice vision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I do not think Guerin has proven much at all, neither has Meszaros or Walker. JvR has struggled a little bit, Carcillo is not helping his case....plenty of question marks, but what we do not see is what Laviolette does see. How does he do during drills and what is the reason for him being there in the first place? My personal opinion is that have Guerin in uniform is a obvious statement that they are looking for another winger to help with scoring depth and I do not think they are looking too deep into whether he is scoring a point a night or how some guys on a hockey forum evaluate their ability to evaluate the talent they see on a daily basis.
So...you think that Laviolette is looking for "intangibles" to find a good scoring winger and not the "good scoring" part? Okay.

There's only two reasons why we're desperate for a winger right now. Both of which are our GM's fault.

1) We're the only team in the league dumb enough to try and roll three scoring lines. This is why other teams don't do it. It's just not feasible. It isn't Carcillo's fault that he plays on the only team in the league that would force him into a scoring role.

2) We traded Gagne. If our GM was that interested and committed to three full scoring lines then he should have kept Gagne. He was our best and pretty much the only legitimate option. Now that he hasn't pursued any other scoring wingers in free agency (other then Zherdev) and now that he's traded Gagne, he's left himself with no options and he'll just have to accept that. Carcillo is our best option at this point.

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09-28-2010, 12:10 PM
  #224
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So...you think that Laviolette is looking for "intangibles" to find a good scoring winger and not the "good scoring" part? Okay.

There's only two reasons why we're desperate for a winger right now. Both of which are our GM's fault.

1) We're the only team in the league dumb enough to try and roll three scoring lines. This is why other teams don't do it. It's just not feasible. It isn't Carcillo's fault that he plays on the only team in the league that would force him into a scoring role
I do not know, my best wish would have been to try and use the cap space to make other moves and bring in a guy like Malhotra who could give you a perfect 3rd line type player and add a guy like Carcillo and Leino on his wings. Again, I am not trying to go back and fix what has already is done, I am trying to look at what the best possible option could be at this point.

Quote:
2) We traded Gagne. If our GM was that interested and committed to three full scoring lines then he should have kept Gagne. He was our best and pretty much the only legitimate option. Now that he hasn't pursued any other scoring wingers in free agency (other then Zherdev) and now that he's traded Gagne, he's left himself with no options and he'll just have to accept that. Carcillo is our best option at this point.
I agree, I would have traded Carter and kept Gagne, even bringing in Zherdev could have been OK but may not have been necessary depending on what you get back for Carter(preferrably a goalie). I do not have the answers but only look at what possible options they are looking at to fill their current needs as the lineup is currently set.

Gagne-Giroux-Briere
JvR-Richards-Hartnell
Carcillo-Malhotra-Hartnell
Shelley-Betts or Powe-Laperriere(health dependent)

get back Bernier or Quick from LA.

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09-28-2010, 12:31 PM
  #225
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get back Bernier or Quick from LA.
You would not want to pay the price for either goalie. Bernier would start with a asking price of Giroux. Lombardi isnt like Holmgren. He knows how to trade and doesnt take bad contracts. another words he isnt going to take Carle ect for either goalie.

EDIT: We arent trading Jeff Carter either.

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