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Meech's Injury / Roster Status

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09-27-2010, 12:49 PM
  #1
sarcastro
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Meech's Injury / Roster Status

Howdy Folks.

I was thinking this morning about who makes the Wings' roster and who gets cut, and then thinking about how a guy who had zero chance of making the team, Derek Meech, may end up making it after all.

I'll need a little clarification from Irish Blues or another of the resident HF cap geeks, er, gurus.

Ok, so if a player on an NHL roster gets injured, he can't be demoted to the minors until he is healthy. I think I remember that being a CBA rule.

But Meech was waived before his injury and this is preseason - does he qualify as being "on the NHL roster" for this purpose?

Also, would he be eligible for LTIR retro to the preseason game in which he was injured? Otherwise they could have to carry him on the NHL roster until he's healthy enough to send to GR. In that case, that's one of 23 spots they had available when they already had 25 guys legitimately competing for a spot (not including Meech).

So I've kind of been all over the board here. Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up:

Are the Wings stuck with Meech on their active roster until he's healthy, or is there some way they can get rid of him (realizing that if nobody wanted him for free on waivers when he was healthy, nobody is going to want to pay for him when he's injured)?

This could really screw with their roster. They were already looking at dumping Miller or Ritola, but if they have to keep Meech around they might end up dumping both.

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09-27-2010, 12:59 PM
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sepster
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I would imagine that if his concussion problems are severe enough to where he can not be sent to the minors, than they would also qualify him to be put on LTIR, thus relieving any cap/roster complications.

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09-27-2010, 01:11 PM
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I don't remember if the Wings assigned Meech to the Griffins? He cleared waivers, as I recall, but did he get assigned?

I'm pretty sure that since he cleared waivers, the team is not stuck with him on the roster. If we re-visit Quincey [for legit purposes this time], he was out of options when the Wings moved him. He was injured in camp, then they had to wait for him to clear his IR status before they could waive him. He was then claimed by LA off the waiver wire.

Meech was part of the Wings roster up to the point when he was waived.

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09-27-2010, 03:25 PM
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jacK
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Originally Posted by sepster View Post
I would imagine that if his concussion problems are severe enough to where he can not be sent to the minors, than they would also qualify him to be put on LTIR, thus relieving any cap/roster complications.
not how it works.
even if he's on LTIR, his salary still counts against the cap. we're able to replace his spot on the roster if he's on LTIR, but his salary would be eating up any kind of cap cushion we'd have until we're actually at/over the cap... then we get 'relief' in an allowance over the cap (up to the amount of his cap hit.)

i'm hoping that Fugu's right (it was my assumption, too) that since he has already cleared waivers, he's free to be demoted, brain mush and all.

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09-27-2010, 04:14 PM
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sepster
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Regardless of the technicalities of the cap, were Meech to be placed on LTIR the Wings do not have to lose another player because he is taking up space. Therefore, relieving any complications of Meech being around.

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09-27-2010, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepster View Post
Regardless of the technicalities of the cap, were Meech to be placed on LTIR the Wings do not have to lose another player because he is taking up space. Therefore, relieving any complications of Meech being around.
roster complications, we're in the clear... cap complications, not so much.

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09-28-2010, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jacK View Post
roster complications, we're in the clear... cap complications, not so much.
How so?

When Franzen was hurt, they used his 3.9 million of cap space on other players, no?

If Meech is on the team and on LTIR, they we will have his 500k to use however they want.

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09-28-2010, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by petesrw View Post
How so?

When Franzen was hurt, they used his 3.9 million of cap space on other players, no?

If Meech is on the team and on LTIR, they we will have his 500k to use however they want.
no, we can not use his $500k however we want... i already explained this. when you have cap space, that gets eaten up daily by everybody on the roster, LTIR or not. once you're up against the cap? then you're given a little 'relief', and allowed to go over the cap up to the amount of the LTIR player's cap hit.

when Franzen was hurt last year, we were already up against/over the cap. therefore, we're allowed to replace him on the roster w/ player(s) worth up to that $3.9mil.

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09-28-2010, 10:41 AM
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So, if Meech were to be placed on LTIR and is considered 'on the Wings roster" because of the injury, we would have to get rid of both Miller and Ritola because of the cap?

Or

Under some circumstance in the cap we are able to keep one of those players because we're allowed to go over?

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09-28-2010, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sepster View Post
So, if Meech were to be placed on LTIR and is considered 'on the Wings roster" because of the injury, we would have to get rid of both Miller and Ritola because of the cap?

Or

Under some circumstance in the cap we are able to keep one of those players because we're allowed to go over?

There are a couple of issues, one being the cap and the other being the roster size limit (23 players).

Regardless of any other considerations, the Wings can only have 23 players on the Active Roster.

If a player is on LTIR, he's not considered an Active Roster player any longer, thus would not count as part of the head count limit. Also, a player on Injured Reserved also makes room for an additional body (usually accommodated through a call-up from the minor team).

The cap issue says you cannot exceed the upper limit regardless of any other consideration EXCEPT a replacement due to LTIR or bonus payout, if these costs indeed put a team over the cap.

Let's say you have 23 guys, and $5 M in cap space. You lose a player to long-term injury whose avg annual pay is $2 M. That $2 M still gets counted. You can add whatever priced player you want at that point because you still have $3 M in cap room. Both amounts are counted. However, if you had zero cap space and then you lost a roster player who cost the same $2 M, you can add a replacement who will cost up $2 M.

I should qualify all of this though to say that the way the NHL keeps track of the cap is to use a daily cap hit. If a player misses 60 days, the team essentially gets 60 days of up to that [$2M/# of NHL days] x 60 rate in cap relief. Once the regular roster guy returns, the team can no longer have both.


Last edited by Fugu: 09-28-2010 at 11:49 AM. Reason: good thing zecke's paying attention :)
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Old
09-28-2010, 11:35 AM
  #11
zecke26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
There are a couple of issues, one being the cap and the other being the roster size limit (22 players).

Regardless of any other considerations, the Wings can only have 22 players on the Active Roster.
when did the number drop from 23 to 22?

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09-28-2010, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
when did the number drop from 23 to 22?
D'oh. It's 23 until the Trade Deadline, then no limit.

The 2 is right next to the 3 on the keyboard?

Quote:
Teams are limited to 50 active NHL contracts (which excludes 18 and 19 year old players signed to NHL ELS contracts who are playing in the Canadian Hockey League).

Teams are limited to a reserve list of 90 players.

NHL Teams must maintain a minimum 20 players on their active roster (18 skaters and two goal tenders); players on the Injured Reserve or Long Term Injured Reserve list do not count against this limit.

NHL Teams are limited to a maximum 23 players on their active roster; players on the Injured Reserve or Long Term Injured Reserve list do not count against this limit. (See salary cap section for further restrictions.) 18 skaters and two goal tenders are dressed for a game.

If a player is put on the Injured Reserve list, he must stay on the IR for at least 7 days. A player can be put on the IR retroactively to the day/game he was injured.

Teams must comply with the 23-man roster limit before the start of the regular season. (Exceptions have been allowed for teams traveling overseas to start play, but must be adhered to upon return to North America.)

The 23-man roster limit does not apply after the trade deadline.

Emergency call ups may exceed the 23-man roster limit. (But the salary cap limit is still in place.)

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Old
09-28-2010, 12:19 PM
  #13
sarcastro
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That would mean that if they have to keep him, he won't count as one of 23 but he will count against the cap. Doesn't address the "Do they have to keep him?" issue though.

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Old
09-28-2010, 12:53 PM
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Fugu
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
That would mean that if they have to keep him, he won't count as one of 23 but he will count against the cap. Doesn't address the "Do they have to keep him?" issue though.

Read Articles 13.5, 13.6, and 13.9. I'm 99% certain that Meech having cleared waivers is no longer part of the Wings Active Roster. The waiver does expire after 30 days or 10 NHL games IF the player isn't assigned to any other league.

13.6 deals specifically with Injury sustained during Training Camp:

Quote:
A Player who is otherwise required to clear Regular Waivers who is injured during Training Camp must clear Regular Waivers if he remains on the NHL roster for 30 days during his injury or if he plays ten NHL Games before being Loaned to a minor league club.

The Player's injured days on the roster and NHL Games played following such injury count towards the Waiver expiration provision of Section 13.5.

Since Meech was waived, I don't see that 13.6 applies. 13.5 deals with Waiver Expiration, basically saying if he hasn't been loaned to a minor club OR is recalled (which Meech was not), except for emergency recall; and remains on the NHL roster for 30 days or plays ten games.......the waiver expires after he has cleared.


Therefore, I don't think they are stuck with him due to the injury since he was waived prior to the injury being sustained.

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